Proc Monsters - Controller Edition

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

If you are talking about taking down a Pylon with Elec/ it was done on CoX Prime by Boomie's Elec/Cold/Mace. The thread is on the first page of the archive. He may have changed it to Elec/Cold/Stone at some point. I think it will have an easier time with it on Homecoming.

"Circumstantial" probably wasn't the right word choice there. I don't doubt that Electric could do it, but I also don't think just any generic build is going to work. For me to toss Electric/Dark at it, I'd have to approach things differently and get some KB protection into the Gremlins, and also get another ST attack into the build. Achieving that, I'm certain it'd be doable, but the more AoE centric build I tossed at it initially just wasn't going to cut it in a way that was worth the effort. I probably could've done it with the build I already had, it would've just taken ~10 minutes, and I just really really didn't have that in me for an "eh, why not" kind of run.

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

Your posts are a pleasure to read. I like to think and reason about build choices, but you actually go out there and provide test results.

[Bopper]

I have finished analyzing results of my Jolting Chain test yesterday and have posted it in the comments section of the PPM Information Guide.

 

The TL;DR: what I suspected yesterday has been confirmed. The initial cast on the target acts as a single-target attack (no surprise), and the jolt chains act as a non-click attack with a 15 foot radius and a 10 second ActivatePeriod.  Assuming no recharge and a 3.5 PPM Proc, the initial cast would have a 58.7% probability to proc. The jolt chains should always have a 21.7% probability to proc (recharge won't matter). 

[Sir Myshkin]

Okay. Okay.

OKAY!

I couldn't help myself. It's not my fault. And it's definitely y'alls problem. I went and fought the Pylon. I knew Elec/Dark could do it, just needed to fix up a couple of things to make it happen, so I did. Flipped the build over to Primal Epic and filled it in with Power Blast and Torrent as Mules slash actually decent supplemental powers. Mostly, I did it for Power Boost on Fade. I also altered the build across the board and am now suggesting an alternative slot option on the pet that will likely carry forward for any pet work done forward. Overwhelming Proc for standard content to get the KD, and then the Edict of the Master 5% +Def (All) unique for ST fights and Incarnate Content. The unique, with PB+Fade, puts the Gremlins at 41%, and Darkest Night (with Intuition Radial Alpha) puts them at effectively 59%. The Pets, the rest is just gravy for the player as PB+Fade puts them above soft cap, and decently above iCap, and with the DDR padding, should allow it to take one or two potential hits without cascading failure.

 

I loaded up with T4 Clarion and Degenerative Core, and Intuition Radial. For doing so real little actual attacking myself, this came out pretty nicely. In case anyone was wondering, I follow standard practice Pylon Rules of Engagement every time I do these tests. So no Lore Pet, no inspirations, no temporary powers (Power Analyzer aside as that doesn't do anything), only the weight of my build against that pesky meatbag Tower. Final run time was 4:39. Feel pretty good about that. Not quite as good as what I pulled with Dark/Dark/Psi Defender, but we're talking about an AoE centric Controller here, and that was a better time than several other versions of Proc Monsters I've tested so far.

 

Here is the updated build:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Electric Control
Secondary Power Set: Darkness Affinity
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Primal Forces Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Tesla Cage -- GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(13), UnbCns-Dam%(13), GldNet-Dam%(27), NrnSht-Dam%(29), GldJvl-Dam%(29)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(3), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Prv-Heal/Rchg(5), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(5), Prv-Absorb%(7)
Level 2: Chain Fences -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(11), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(25), TraoftheH-Dam%(37), PstBls-Dam%(37), Rgn-Knock%(40)
Level 4: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Jolting Chain -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(36), Apc-Dam%(36), ExpStr-Dam%(36), GldJvl-Dam%(37)
Level 8: Conductive Aura -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 10: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 14: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A), PstBls-Dam%(15), ImpSwf-Dam%(15)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(17), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(23)
Level 18: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 20: Fade -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(40)
Level 22: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Synaptic Overload -- SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(A), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(27), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(43), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(45), MlsIll-Dam%(50)
Level 28: Soul Absorption -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Gremlins -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)
Level 35: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- CldSns-%Dam(A), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(39), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Power Blast -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Apc-Dmg(42), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(42), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apc-Acc/Rchg(43), GldJvl-Dam%(45)
Level 44: Energy Torrent -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Dmg(45), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(46), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50)
Level 47: Temp Invulnerability -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(48), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), UnbGrd-Max HP%(48)
Level 49: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(7), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(9)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Clarion Core Epiphany
Level 50: Support Core Embodiment
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
------------

 

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Oh, and I did a video thing:

 

So What's Next?

Looking towards the next thing on my checklist I, of course, want to try and pack as much into a singular test as possible. It not only looks to see if things can get crazy and packed, but also what kind of extreme build options might be out there. So for the next test, because it is a bit thematic, I'm looking at Earth Control and Earth Mastery. Since I already know that Dark Miasma is a stable platform, I'll like pair it with that again since it is self contained and compensates a lack of defense with -To-Hit and keeps it legitimately well-rounded. It might be a couple days before I get around to doing the full test, but I have a vague idea of the build in mind and it's a doozy. A lot of proc-tential in this setup, a lot to confirm. Expecting some of this stuff to be pretty straight forward "Yup, just as expected." But we never fully know just how some things end up playing out. An interesting one here is going to be another Distortion Field like effect of a drop-zone Hold with minor DoT in Volcanic Gasses. That power could potentially act as a Mini-Nuke. Then we have Seismic Smash, an attack that can take 8 (!!!!) damage procs!

 

Here is the planned test build:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Earth Control
Secondary Power Set: Darkness Affinity
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fossilize -- GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(13), Apc-Dam%(13), GldNet-Dam%(27), UnbCns-Dam%(29), GldJvl-Dam%(29)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(3), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(5), Acc-I(7)
Level 2: Stone Cages -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Rgn-Dmg(37), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(37), PstBls-Dam%(40)
Level 4: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)
Level 8: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Stalagmites -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(31), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(34), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(36), PstBls-Dam%(36)
Level 14: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A), PstBls-Dam%(15), ImpSwf-Dam%(15)
Level 16: Shadow Fall -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(17), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(23)
Level 18: Earthquake -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(31), TchofLadG-%Dam(36), ExpStr-Dam%(37)
Level 20: Fade -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(40), Ksm-ToHit+(48)
Level 22: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(48), HO:Ribo(48)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Acc/EndRdx(27), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(43), GldNet-Dam%(43), Ann-ResDeb%(45), PstBls-Dam%(50)
Level 28: Soul Absorption -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(A)
Level 32: Animate Stone -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)
Level 35: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 38: Hurl Boulder -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), ExpStr-Dam%(39), GldJvl-Dam%(39), FrcFdb-Rechg%(39)
Level 41: Fissure -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(42), ExpStr-Dam%(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 44: Seismic Smash -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Dam%(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(46), TchofDth-Dam%(46), GldStr-%Dam(46), Mk'Bit-Dam%(50)
Level 47: Quicksand -- ImpSwf-Dam%(A)
Level 49: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(7), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(9)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Clarion Core Epiphany
Level 50: Support Core Embodiment
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
------------

 

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Small side note: Yes, I did take Dark Servant out. I know he's got some great utility, but I wanted to pack a lot of tests into this build and slots and powers became kind of tight. In most cases Fluffy was purely a set-mule anyway, and just convenient to have as a pocket-controller, but in this particular case I'm packing a huge array of control effects and Fluffy is kind of just baggage on my slots, so I pulled him out (for now). You may also notice I've tossed in the +6% To Hit IO for the first time ever, in conjunction with Tactics. This build really hurts for accuracy since I just Proc'd it up! So fixing some accuracy issues with those to utilities this go-around.

[Bopper]

Excellent video editing. I enjoyed the Jazz flute... couldn't stop picturing Ron Burgundy.

[theDarkeOne]

Sorry, I missed this thread as I writing up my Grav/Dark post. This is what I have been experimenting with and by far one of the most insanely fun characters I have ever created in 7+ years (including original run). I thought my ill/traps couldn't die, until I met this girl. Still struggling on TTK when I up it to +3 or +4 but been running +8 mobs since I took fissure! I am not looking back!

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Gravity Control
Secondary Power Set: Darkness Affinity
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Crush

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Twilight Grasp

• (A) Preventive Medicine - Heal
• (3) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
• (3) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
• (5) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime
• (5) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance
• (7) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb
  

Level 2: Tar Patch

• (A) Impeded Swiftness - Chance of Damage(Smashing)
  

Level 4: Gravity Distortion

• (A) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold
  

Level 6: Propel

• (A) Decimation - Chance of Build Up
• (11) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (11) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (13) Decimation - Accuracy/Damage
• (13) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (15) Empty
  

Level 8: Arcane Bolt

• (A) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (15) Accuracy IO
• (17) Empty
  

Level 10: Howling Twilight

• (A) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
  

Level 12: Mystic Flight

• (A) Empty
  

Level 14: Enflame

• (A) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
• (46) Accuracy IO
  

Level 16: Shadow Fall

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
• (17) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (19) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (19) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
• (21) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
• (21) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
  

Level 18: Gravity Distortion Field

• (A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
• (23) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
• (23) Basilisk's Gaze - Recharge/Hold
• (25) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
  

Level 20: Fade

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
• (25) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (27) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
• (27) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance
• (29) Impervious Skin - Status Resistance
• (29) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
  

Level 22: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
• (31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
  

Level 24: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (31) Recharge Reduction IO
• (33) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 26: Wormhole

• (A) Razzle Dazzle - Chance of Immobilize
• (33) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (33) Empty
  

Level 28: Soul Absorption

• (A) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage
• (34) Siphon Insight - Chance for +ToHit
• (34) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
• (34) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
• (36) Adrenal Adjustment - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
  

Level 30: Crushing Field

• (A) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
• (36) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
• (36) Debilitative Action - Disorient Bonus
• (37) Impeded Swiftness - Chance of Damage(Smashing)
• (37) Superior Overpowering Presence - RechargeTime/Energy Font
  

Level 32: Singularity

• (A) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized/Endurance/Recharge
• (37) Call to Arms - Defense Bonus Aura for Pets
• (39) Edict of the Master - Defense Bonus
• (39) Superior Will of the Controller - Recharge/Chance for Psionic Damage
• (39) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized
• (40) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized/Endurance
  

Level 35: Fissure

• (A) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
• (40) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (40) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (42) Frozen Blast - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
• (42) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (42) Empty
  

Level 38: Dark Servant

• (A) Touch of the Nictus - Chance for Negative Energy Damage
• (43) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage
• (43) Trap of the Hunter - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• (43) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
• (45) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
  

Level 41: Rock Armor

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
• (45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
  

Level 44: Tactics

• (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
• (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
• (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
  

Level 47: Rune of Protection

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
• (48) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance
• (48) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
• (48) Titanium Coating - Resistance/Recharge
  

Level 49: Earth's Embrace

• (A) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance
• (50) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge
• (50) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge
• (50) Impervious Skin - Status Resistance
  

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Empty
  

Level 1: Containment 

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash

 

 

[Coyote]

Testing data on Freezing Rain: 1 damage proc

Pre-testing planning: with no Recharge, a power with 20' radius and 60 second recharge should have a 90% chance to proc a 3.5 PPM IO. Damage procs (standard) are 3.5 PPM, so we should have a 90% chance to proc, if it's based on the power's recharge.

However, if the power's activation is run like a toggle, then its chance should be PPM/Area Factor x 1/6 (because it checks once every 10 seconds, or 6 times per minute), capped at 90%.

The Area Factor is 3.25, so in this case I expect a 18% chance to proc.

 

Methodology: 1 damage proc, thrown over a spawn of level 5 mobs, and see how many die instantly and how many take a couple of FR ticks to kill.

Result: 120 mobs killed, 20 instantly for a 16.7% rate.

Conclusion: Freezing Rain (and I assume other Rain powers) activates like a toggle, every 10 seconds including 0. 6 slotted with standard damage procs at level 50, it would do about 77 points of damage up front, and another 77 after 10 seconds. Definitely less than overwhelming. Even damage-starved Controller builds can do better by slotting up the AoE Immob, at least that gets to benefit from global Recharge.

[Sir Myshkin]

7 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Testing data on Freezing Rain: 1 damage proc

Pre-testing planning: with no Recharge, a power with 20' radius and 60 second recharge should have a 90% chance to proc a 3.5 PPM IO. Damage procs (standard) are 3.5 PPM, so we should have a 90% chance to proc, if it's based on the power's recharge.

However, if the power's activation is run like a toggle, then its chance should be PPM/Area Factor x 1/6 (because it checks once every 10 seconds, or 6 times per minute), capped at 90%.

The Area Factor is 3.25, so in this case I expect a 18% chance to proc.

 

Methodology: 1 damage proc, thrown over a spawn of level 5 mobs, and see how many die instantly and how many take a couple of FR ticks to kill.

Result: 120 mobs killed, 20 instantly for a 16.7% rate.

Conclusion: Freezing Rain (and I assume other Rain powers) activates like a toggle, every 10 seconds including 0. 6 slotted with standard damage procs at level 50, it would do about 77 points of damage up front, and another 77 after 10 seconds. Definitely less than overwhelming. Even damage-starved Controller builds can do better by slotting up the AoE Immob, at least that gets to benefit from global Recharge.

Globally speaking it was determined that whatever step the devs took to stop rain effects from being insanely broken, basically just broke the powers collectively. I tested these way back when I did my Ice/Storm Corruptor and talked about those tests in the Storm Summoning (Defender) thread. The rate that the procs go off is abysmal in the rain abilities, making the effort to slot those extra pieces a bit of a waste. In the event of things like the -Res procs, I only ever got two triggers over (I don't even remember how many minutes of just re-dropping Freezing Rain and Ice Storm), and in both cases it was literally a blip on the Pylon. It showed up for less than a full second, just enough for me to go "crap, did that hit?" For whatever reason the debuff was pushed off the moment it applied. I've been over FR, Sleet, Blizzard, and Ice Storm, all feedback the same way: "Don't bother."

[Frosticus]

Something to consider

 

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

@Frosticus Which procs are you using?

Definitely has the 3 purples in there (Controller, Hold and AoE). Also an Obliteration, and I think that might be it for damage procs. Also looks like a -Res proc (FotG).

[Frosticus]

17 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

@Frosticus Which procs are you using?

Poison trap > Sup Will of controller psi dam, Armagedon Fire dam, Unbreakable Constraint Smash dam, Obliteration smash dam, Fury -res*, Generic acc/rech

 

The acc/rech will prob be replaced with a +5 acc IO once the global rech is in place

 

*trying out the -res proc now as it should hopefully benefit creepers and fissure more than just another dam proc in the power

 

[Frosticus]

4 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Gotchya. Thanks! Didn't want to assume. Custom mob may have a lower resist or something.

It's just the comic con s/l outdoor farm.

If I just stand there usually by the third pulse of the trap the whole spawn will be dead (even cons).

 

I might have used envenom first? i can't recall now, but everyone is under the effect of venomous gas which does have an achilies in it (cause what else would i slot in it even with the low proc rate?)

[Sir Myshkin]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

It's just the comic con s/l outdoor farm.

If I just stand there usually by the third pulse of the trap the whole spawn will be dead (even cons).

 

I might have used envenom first? i can't recall now, but everyone is under the effect of venomous gas which does have an achilies in it (cause what else would i slot in it even with the low proc rate?) 

Your experience is the same as what I got with Poison Trap from the Traps set when I tested it on Defenders. I would assume that the abilities are the same (code wise) in the game. Yes, procs in that powers are pretty crazy. Sadly it's the "only" thing Poison really gets to play with.

[Frosticus]

31 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Your experience is the same as what I got with Poison Trap from the Traps set when I tested it on Defenders. I would assume that the abilities are the same (code wise) in the game. Yes, procs in that powers are pretty crazy. Sadly it's the "only" thing Poison really gets to play with.

yes, it behaves the same with a couple notable differences that make it pretty gold for me verses the traps version. Also why it shines best on trollers and corrs. 

1. It takes pbaoe damage sets. Trollers have very limited access to the Armageddon set and/or the Fury set.

2. It takes the troller/corrupter ATO damage proc

3. It has an extremely fast cast time. Whereas the traps version takes forever and a day the poison version is a hair over a second.

 

3 purple damage procs in a fast casting decent sized aoe on a set that you are in close anyway (venomous gas). I'm quite pleased by it so far. 

 

Don't get me wrong traps is great, but I personally only use poison trap against AV's and such because it so slow to get out. The poison version is so fast and the procs are instantaneous. It is a legit aoe damage power with procs. 

 

True, poison doesn't have much else going on, but envenom, weaken and neuro breath all proc well for the procs they have. 

[Sir Myshkin]

36 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Don't get me wrong traps is great, but I personally only use poison trap against AV's and such because it so slow to get out. The poison version is so fast and the procs are instantaneous. It is a legit aoe damage power with procs. 

People keep asking me about Poison, "Why no Poison" and I decided I'd just "put a build on file" at this point, and I knew going in when I did the Defenders Proc thread that Poison just... Kind of poor for a lot of things (imo) other than pure target debuff. Definitely not my playstyle personally, and really isn't suited to proc builds because you can't find a path to help keep it alive. For Controllers they can flex a lot of mez abilities to that effect, but still.

 

Anyway, the whole thing I was getting to is the fact that with the damage sets available to Poison's version of the trap, that thing has a hypothetical damage output greater than Blackstar (on Defenders), on a 20-25/s potential recharge (purely just looking at global, and that's half the cooldown of the reduced Blackstar cooldown) for just the initial cast alone, never mind the fact that it just sits there for a while, still going off.

 

Now, that's not enough to make me role a Poison set, but that's very scary.

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

People keep asking me about Poison, "Why no Poison" and I decided I'd just "put a build on file" at this point, and I knew going in when I did the Defenders Proc thread that Poison just... Kind of poor for a lot of things (imo) other than pure target debuff. Definitely not my playstyle personally, and really isn't suited to proc builds because you can't find a path to help keep it alive. For Controllers they can flex a lot of mez abilities to that effect, but still.

 

Anyway, the whole thing I was getting to is the fact that with the damage sets available to Poison's version of the trap, that thing has a hypothetical damage output greater than Blackstar (on Defenders), on a 20-25/s potential recharge (purely just looking at global, and that's half the cooldown of the reduced Blackstar cooldown) for just the initial cast alone, never mind the fact that it just sits there for a while, still going off.

 

Now, that's not enough to make me role a Poison set, but that's very scary.

I largely agree. I've wanted to like the poison set for a long time, but it really doesn't have much to celebrate.

I really wanted a poison/water defender but just couldn't make a go of it.

 

I specifically went plant because it really helps leverage poisons strengths and covers many of its shortcomings. Poison can really benefit plant too.

[Tater Todd]

Reads the first paragraph of this post..."I need to get out my reading glasses and a Stogie.  I know I'm going to enjoy every bit of this post."

 

[Tater Todd]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:43 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

Globally speaking it was determined that whatever step the devs took to stop rain effects from being insanely broken, basically just broke the powers collectively. I tested these way back when I did my Ice/Storm Corruptor and talked about those tests in the Storm Summoning (Defender) thread. The rate that the procs go off is abysmal in the rain abilities, making the effort to slot those extra pieces a bit of a waste. In the event of things like the -Res procs, I only ever got two triggers over (I don't even remember how many minutes of just re-dropping Freezing Rain and Ice Storm), and in both cases it was literally a blip on the Pylon. It showed up for less than a full second, just enough for me to go "crap, did that hit?" For whatever reason the debuff was pushed off the moment it applied. I've been over FR, Sleet, Blizzard, and Ice Storm, all feedback the same way: "Don't bother."

I was shocked that they didn't come to this realization before they went with the change...or maybe they felt like the neutering of Proc utility in toggle or pet sets was justified due to their past broken performance over the years.  Whatever the case may be it was unnecessary and petty and in many ways lowered the popularity, use and diversity of many powersets even though in fairness it felt strongly like a temporary fix much like what happened with Snipe powers.  I just hope our current Dev team is willing to and able to take a revisit certain sets and powers and breathe life into them once more.

 

Also Sir, I figured out the same thing not too long ago when it comes to some toggles.  It almost seems like treating toggles as a rotation power might have the most proc benefits in comparison to keeping it on at all times.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Tater Todd

[Frosticus]

I'm now trying  out nerve alpha because it seems silly to waste slots on acc enhancements when you could put more procs into a power. Between nerve and set bonuses you shouldn't need acc slotting. Also boosts defense a bit saving more slots in the build for proc potential. 

[SmalltalkJava]

10 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

figured out the same thing not too long ago when it comes to some toggles.  It almost seems like treating toggles as a rotation power might have the most proc benefits in comparison to keeping it on at all times.

I’ve been thinking the same thing recently.  I think one of the radiation debuff toggles can be slotted fairly heavily with procs.  And I think its pbaoe stun toggle can also. But I need to recheck. 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, SmalltalkJava said:

11 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

figured out the same thing not too long ago when it comes to some toggles.  It almost seems like treating toggles as a rotation power might have the most proc benefits in comparison to keeping it on at all times.

I’ve been thinking the same thing recently.  I think one of the radiation debuff toggles can be slotted fairly heavily with procs.  And I think its pbaoe stun toggle can also. But I need to recheck. 

Are you guys suggesting to cast a toggle, hope to proc, detoggle, repeat? If so, I've done this test. The chance to proc when casting is the same as it would be anytime the toggle would proc. If it's just to cheat the system and proc faster than every 10 seconds, sure you can do it, but I don't think you'll get much benefit given the amount of time it takes to cast the power. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Bopper

[Tater Todd]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

Are you guys suggesting to cast a toggle, hope to proc, detoggle, repeat? If so, I've done this test. The chance to proc when casting is the same as it would be anytime the toggle would proc. If it's just to cheat the system and proc faster than every 10 seconds, sure you can do it, but I don't think you'll get much benefit given the amount of time it takes to cast the power. 

Such a shame.  I guess there's no point of slotting Procs in toggles anymore 😕 I gathered as much but I was hoping someone who is far more versed in coh game knowledge and math could prove me wrong.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Tater Todd

[Bopper]

25 minutes ago, Tater Todd said:

Such a shame.  I guess there's no point of slotting Procs in toggles anymore 😕 I gathered as much but I was hoping someone who is far more versed in coh game knowledge and math could prove me wrong.

Toggles are hurt by two things...the fact they use only 10 second activate periods and they are wide area of effect powers. But I am not of the mindset that they are useless in toggles/patches. It just depends on the situation and the quality of the proc. For example, maybe you have a toggle that does KD/KB, the Force Feedback proc is perfect for it. Perhaps you are in a large team with pets and you have Tactics, Gaussian is great for that. Perhaps you have Distortion Field which takes up to 5 damage procs and can easily be double stacked (sometimes triple stacked), you can get good use out of that. 

 

Truth is, the old way was broken. This is a better system. Unless someone can propose a better system that doesn't re-break it, I will keep that belief. But in general, you're right, the cost of an enhancement slot for a proc in a toggle will usually not be worth it. But it does offer splash damage, and in AoE fights, that is something. But if you're fighting a Rikti Pylon, it will leave you disappointed.

[oedipus_tex]

I think the new system is neither particularly better or worse than the old. The old one rewarded putting procs in fast recharging powers. The new one makes the chance to proc in long recharging powers so likely that it unbalances it in a different way. I'd like the old rain system/toggle back and the current proc rate for long recharging powers cut in approximately half. The issue with the new system is the chance to proc per time spent animating is far lower for long recharge powers than for fast recharging ones, which throws the system out of wack in a different way, where Hold powers in tertiary sets become top damage performers and other unintended side effects show up.

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Such a shame.  I guess there's no point of slotting Procs in toggles anymore 😕 I gathered as much but I was hoping someone who is far more versed in coh game knowledge and math could prove me wrong.

 

Well, I think that's not necessarily the case. What is true is that now procs in toggle powers are... iffy.

Hurricane with a single target in range and Force Feedback... averages about a 4.3% +Recharge. Considering that we slot powers for 6.25% set bonuses, getting a 4.3% wouldn't be bad... and it gets better with multiple targets in range.

Siphon Insight is also good for this.

World of Confusion with a -20% Res proc would average 6.14% -Res, and getting a 6% improvement to your melee-range damage for 1 slot seems worth it. Other PBAoE toggles with larger radii would still get 3-4% -Res, which sounds weak, but if you're running it for damage anyhow, then getting a 3% damage improvement for 1 slot isn't that bad.

 

What it is, is possibly useful. Just not clearly must-have. Which, to me... seems like a reasonable balance.