Focused Feedback: Rage

[macskull]

3 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

No. Why would anyone willingly do that? Should powers be balanced for terrible slotting?

 

Yes, your first character or your army of pre-50 alts are gonna have a hard time. After that, it's completely within your power to slot your alt characters with attuned sets for leveling.

No, but the game is not balanced around IOs or (except in incarnate content) incarnate powers. So... the game is balanced around your "terrible slotting."

 

That's my point - people are calling for nerfs to powers based on what they can do with the invention system, which the game is not balanced around.

 

EDIT: I think it was the "delete Hasten" thread where I posted about SO/IO balance, so I'll reiterate here. The invention system is a completely optional part of the game. Some powers are balanced around the IO system, in a roundabout way (for example the tier 9s from Willpower, Shield, and Rad Armor ignore recharge bonuses and can't be slotted for recharge, and all incarnate powers ignore recharge bonuses), but those powers are only balanced around the IO system because they pretend like it doesn't exist, and were designed that way out of the gate. If you go back and retroactively balance existing powers and sets against the IO system it's no longer an optional part of the game and turns CoH into the same grindy lootfest as every other MMO.

Edited September 27, 2019 by macskull

[nihilii]

9 hours ago, macskull said:

Go play an SO'd and un-incarnate'd TW character and tell me how that works out for you.

I've done that three times, they were by far my most powerful characters at those levels.

It's like people forget TW starts with a fast recharging divine avalanche CONE ATTACK as soon as level 1. Defensive Sweep - Crushing Blow - Defensive Sweep - Titan Sweep lets you annihilate any low level opposition. Then Follow Through and Rend Armor aren't too far behind.

 

IOs and incarnates don't increase the gap between TW and other sets. The gap is far wider at the SO level. TW is more end efficient than most other powersets, provided you tag multiple targets with your AoEs.

I could see a scenario in which a hypothetical TW player who refuses to use inspirations or recovery serum, refuses to slot end reduction in attacks and insists on using cones on a single target might feel like the set is end hungry. But that's really trying to work against yourself.

Perhaps more likely: people pick Hasten, spam attacks, drain their own end in the process and fail to consider they've dealt more damage per endurance than less powerful characters.

Take a fight lasting 30 seconds. You deal 1000 damage for 40 endurance. The next guy deals 600 damage for 30 endurance. Are you end-hungrier than the next guy? If your answer is "yes", you need to learn to pace yourself. In this scenario, by using only 30 endurance you would deal 750 damage, and still come out ahead of the other guy.

 

(But really, it's better to deal the maximum damage then take a knee or pop an insp. "End hungry" is a senseless complaint unless it's relative to damage done, not time.)
 

Edited September 27, 2019 by nihilii

[Murcielago]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

I've done that three times, they were by far my most powerful characters at those levels.

It's like people forget TW starts with a fast recharging divine avalanche CONE ATTACK as soon as level 1. Defensive Sweep - Crushing Blow - Defensive Sweep - Titan Sweep lets you annihilate any low level opposition. Then Follow Through and Rend Armor aren't too far behind.

 

IOs and incarnates don't increase the gap between TW and other sets. The gap is far wider at the SO level. TW is more end efficient than most other powersets, provided you tag multiple targets with your AoEs.

I could see a scenario in which a hypothetical TW player who refuses to use inspirations or recovery serum, refuses to slot end reduction in attacks and insists on using cones on a single target might feel like the set is end hungry. But that's really trying to work against yourself.

Perhaps more likely: people pick Hasten, spam attacks, drain their own end in the process and fail to consider they've dealt more damage per endurance than less powerful characters.

Take a fight lasting 30 seconds. You deal 1000 damage for 40 endurance. The next guy deals 600 damage for 30 endurance. Are you end-hungrier than the next guy? If your answer is "yes", you need to learn to pace yourself. In this scenario, by using only 30 endurance you would deal 750 damage, and still come out ahead of the other guy.

 

(But really, it's better to deal the maximum damage then take a knee or pop an insp. "End hungry" is a senseless complaint unless it's relative to damage done, not time.)
 

RIP TW, we hardly knew ye. 

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Murcielago said:

RIP TW, we hardly knew ye. 

Will be interesting to see how that "test" in the Scrapper forums turns out. From what I've seen so far in their testing conditions TW isn't a significant outlier.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Will be interesting to see how that "test" in the Scrapper forums turns out. From what I've seen so far in their testing conditions TW isn't a significant outlier.

Not on SOs for sure.  Seems to barely be better than Claws.  

 

I expect its more bursty with more downtime.  

[JPax]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:08 PM, Haijinx said:

Rage is just build up that can be made perma.  

 

There is literally no other difference.  

 

Any issue with buildup also applies to rage except the uptime.

 

Double ragers are asking for long periods where they get 2 buildups running, with no downside.   

 

They are the ones standing in the way of a crashless easy to use perma-buildup for SS

 

 

 

Just because they use the same buff attributes doesn't mean they are entirely similar. Build Up is a 'feel good' power that works right up until the wall where it doesn't. Rage has this problem aswell, except it's on all the time and provides a decent tohit buff throughout. That's Rage's thing. Build Up needs to ALWAYS be the 'feel good' damage boost, thus why I said 'This is a problem with Build up, not rage'. Build up needs to be seperately improved across the board to further solidify the position of both Rage and Build up. Build up should NEVER have been a straight +damage buff, but rather an additional damage chunk or double hit ability that responds to +dam, keeping it always relevant whatever content you might approach with whatever team comp you might have. So, I say again. This is Build Up's problem, not Rage's.

[JPax]

On 9/12/2019 at 10:37 PM, Haijinx said:

The rationale was that getting a perma build up was better than a 10 second build up

 

Thus it needed a downside. 

 

The game has moved on and people are willing to concede a perma build up was okay without a crash.

 

However there are vocal advocates who want MORE than a perma build up, they want to be able to have long overlap periods of TWO buildups. (30+ seconds typically)

 

Suggesting that doesn't warrant a downside is just being silly.

It's not silly at all. It just needs better competition. I've responded to you in another post talking about that, but basically build up is a fairly rotten power in terms of it's implementation. Should never have been +dam%, but should have been a double hit or damage chunk that responds to +dam instead, further distinguishing the two.

[Groovy]

For the record,  I am onboard with the current changes on Beta.  No crash for single but modified crash for stacked rage.  To me, it seems like a good compromise.  I am particularly happy with the defensive adjustment considering that I have only used SS on my Ice tank.  I have hasten on auto and like to double stack rage when I can but don't always do it based upon the dynamic of the team.  Those that have Rage on auto may not get the full benefit or will have to adjust their game play......just like the rest of us.

[Sir Myshkin]

Posted a longer edition of the following in the correlating thread on the Tanker sub section, but figured I'd mention this here too since it is relevant to the current state of Rage/SS and there's a slightly different crowd watching this thread:

 

"Some times to chew on... I went in and cycled in and out of Hybrid Assault. Originally took on a couple of initial Pylons, and then just kind of said "Eh, screw it, lets see how many I can clear in 30 minutes." I got down to nine before they started popping over. I didn't pull all the times, and I even tried tossing in Foot Stomp for a bit to see if it helping provide FF+Rech procs would help balance my time spent in exceeded recharge. Did enough that my time shift was just ~10/s from not using it.

 

• 2:28
• 2:20
• 2:24
• 2:42*
• 2:18*/**
• 2:46*
• 2:44*

• 2:20
• 2:12**
• 2:32

*Used Foot Stomp

**Hybrid On"

 

"Quoted" out of my other post. Bio/SS (Soul) Proc-built Tank. T4 Incarnates used in the test (Musculature, Ageless, Degenerative, Hybrid Assault Cores), Rage Double Stacked at all times. Bio provides a more consistent and unique aspect to getting into -Res effects than I could do on Willpower, also was able to push the boundary of +Dam a bit further. The Willpower I tested on the first time tapped out at 194%, this build based at 219%, with the Gaussian's Proc set in Rage to go off post-crash to spike 5/s of 299% for a peak output without Hybrid on. With Hybrid active I tipped very close to 400% (I think 390-something%).

 

I dunno, I might intentionally add LBE and sack my travel power to squeeze it in just to see what another -20% Res does. I'm already in spitting distance of Titan Weapons at this point, just need more -Res to get there.

 

[Ivana]

I've only read on this topic up to page 10, but have a very different solution. Leave the power as it is currently with only this one tweak …

Have your total %recharge count toward reducing the duration of the crash. This way there will still be benefit to having a higher recharge to offset the down time.

 

I suggest a balance that still maintains the 10 second TOTAL down time over the 2 minute duration.

Enough recharge to perma 1 stack? Then 10 second down time per crash. Enough recharge to perma 2 stack? Then 5 second down time per crash.

 

I have no idea how feasible this change would be from a coding perspective, but it seems to satisfy most of the issues imo.

 

All tho if I could have it completely my way, there would be no crash in the game that stopped the flow of battle.

Nothing that takes you out of the fight for any period of time. I'm also looking at you end crash nukes and end crash buffs.

 

As far as the defence debuff being too harsh on some sets, I have to agree. Currently it is sharp kick in the dangly bits.

[Sir Myshkin]

Why do we have a Rage crash?

 

Oh yeah, it's to nerf Rage.

 

Can I break 2:00 on a Pylon? Yeah, actually, I can if I tailor a bit more specific to ST performance and through some caution out of the wind into a specialist build. Just came back from Pineapple after trialing LBE with -Res. That turned out to be garbage (LBE's DPA isn't nearly comparable to Gloom, even with the -Res); had static times. Swapped back to Gloom and tossed the new Force of Will, Weaken ability for some -Res. Full kit with Hybrid toggled on:

• 2:04
• 2:09

After this point it's getting to the point where I'm specializing the build for a ST specific expectation, possibly loosing other needed values like defense (couldn't add CJ, pool cap). This brings up question marks for me, as I'm achieving this solo, and when Hybrid is involved like this, edging, to potentially cracking 400% +Damage. If I played without it, it'd be feasible for me to carry a tray of t3 reds and be fairly vicious for a Tank without additional team support. I feel like the factor of so many tools being stackable, the fact that Rage even has a crash at all has become nothing more than a 10/s window of "Slow that guy down."

 

When I was running LBE inclusive tests my Rage crashed right at the tail end of a Pylon. Had it happened just two seconds later, the Pylon would've exploded, but it didn't, and I was stuck working through an extra 15/s because the server ticked and the Pylon gained a chunk of HP.

 

This has me coming down to a thought process, after having spent hours testing the change to Rage: I don't see the point in it having a Crash at this stage, at all. I also don't see the point in double stacking it as it's putting SS into a position to do "game-breaking" things like can be done with a high-recharge-yield Titan Weapon. The problem in this, however, is the fact that the crash cannot be removed because it is the only thing stopping me from fully performing at Titan Weapon levels.

 

There is a version I would like to be able to test and compare as a potential resolution to the Super Strength conundrum, one that may potentially serve as a unified solution also for Scrappers to be able to port SS for effectively. This is, of course, at the discretion of the associated responsible Dev if this could be reviewed:

 

• Balance Jab's base damage to compare with other T1 attacks in other primarily-single-target sets (37.37). It is currently considerably poor in the damage department and makes it a forced, wasted power selection.
• Rage: Reduce the duration to 60/s, maintain cool down of 240/s, To-Hit and Damage percentages. Remove all forms of a crash and give the ability a -Recovery equivalent to 0.50 EPS on top of its cost to activate that lasts 60/s. Change the name to "Focused Might" with the description: "You channel your superior strength to make every hit count, putting more force into each focused attack. Your intense concentration makes you hyper aware of your enemy movements and allows you to find key targets to strike. Your To-Hit and Damage will be significantly improved, but this intense state is taxing, and will take a toll on your stamina."
  • This functionally allows for the ability to be made "perma" with appropriate high levels of recharge. In team scenarios it may become possible to overlap for short periods of time (5-10/s best case).
• Add a Bruising effect based on one of two considerations (one easy, one which may require extra lifting to steal the mechanic and code it into SS):
  • More Complicated -- Bruise Stacks: Every attack builds up the chance to inflict significant harm, weakening the afflicted targets and bruising them quickly. All Super Strength damaging abilities have a 75% chance to add 1 stack, to a max of 5 (10/s durations), with each stack causing an unresistable -3% Resistance (-15% total).
    • Improvement to Hurl Boulder for this, to make taking the power more validated: For each Bruise stack on target enemy, Hurl Boulder does 5% more damage.
    • Knockout Blow: This attack instantly bruises your target, dealing -5% Resistance (5/s)
    • Scrapper variant of SS, instead of Bruise Stacks, Critical Stacks, build up stacks that enhance critical chance/damage
  • Less Complicated -- Add a bruising effect to Knock Out Blow of -5% Resistance on target, a -5% Resistance effect to Jab (validates this forced pick) Punch, and Haymaker. A -10% Resistance value to Hurl Boulder, including a slight damage increase.

The inclusion of a -Res component gives the ability to flex for the shift in Rage and still balance. It'll improve ST performance for the Tank, but also allow them to provide a unique method of support to the team dynamic.

[Gobbledigook]

Jab and punch seem quite low Damage per activation. Increase these as said above.

 

Hurl could become a cone attack hitting everything in its path of travel. This would make it much more useful i think as the set does not have a cone attack.

 

Remove the Crash from Rage altogether. Other Build ups don't have a crash, like Soul drain for example. There are far better ways to manage Rage than just slapping debuffs onto it.

 

Some ideas for Rage i can think of..... 

Turn Rage into a Toggle with an endurance cost. Maybe even have it act a little like a brutes Fury, the more you attack or are attacked the more damage you deal or as Sir Myshkins idea of add a bruising effect to attacks that reduces enemy mitigations and give a small damage/to hit buff perhaps.

OR

make it stack only once

OR 

recharge does not affect its cooldown.

OR

Reduce the buff amount rage gives to 50-60% for example.

 

I do not feel that putting a heavy "Crash" debuff on a power to prevent over abuse is a clever solution really.

 

 

[HyperiusX]

I'm speaking strickly from my tanks persepective so you'll have to forgive me for being selfish.

 

Rage is a major handicap especially if you take Super Strength and Invulnerability (Rage Weakness buff combined with Unstoppable Crash is a disaster when not timed properly). No Tank should be this involved to play and the SS/invuln is a joggling act... nevertheless it's one that I've grown to love.  With Rage I capped out at 304 points of Damage with Knockout Punch, which is my character's one single hit damage power that can do any major damge and that's after I cycled 2 rage buffs (+ four LFTG Global recharge), which means double the rage weakness crash. Btw ... I can still roll a miss with rage 5 slotted and Invincilbilty 5 slotted Rage (Guassian's Synch Fire) so fix the tohit aspect of rage as well. In my opinion when I click that pretty little red Rage button everything that I hit should receive it's proper dose of love!  I understand that Tanks are supposed to primarlity be the Meat Shield but it seems like ss/invuln tanks have to sacrifrice way too much to accomplish that task. Super Strength (Rage) shouldn't by design weaken a tanks recovery.  I stopped counting the times that I ate dirt becuase a rage crash hampered my unstoppable recovery while trying to retoggle my shields (Okay in fairness, I may a have lapsed via human error a few times). I also feel that rage shouldn't negate or trump buffs like Dull Pain and conserve energy especially when intiated prior to the rage and/or unstoppable crash.  

 

This is strictly my opinion based on many hours of farming and observation.  I simply build my characters as best I can taking ED into consideration and tasks that I want them to perform. I honestly feel like the Super Strength and Invulnerabilty build has been left behind with the advent of other tank builds and archtype, thus the SS and Invun sets can use an upgrade. Having said that I vote that you change rage by ditching the weakness (-buffs), what's wrong with super strength being exaclty what it's name sake suggests? Another thing, Since most tanks have to take Fighting and/or Acrobat for increased survivability...what is the point of having jab when I have to take Boxing, if I pick the fighting pool? Now I have 2 useless redundant powers.  On a positive note I did manage to compensate for the rage / unstoppable combo crash... I run:-)

 

PS

Just when you thought I was done bichen! Holding aggro and KB protection should be apart of a tanks build by design. Otherwise why are we calling the archtypes tanks? 

Edited September 29, 2019 by HyperiusX
change my mind on this opinion

[Frosticus]

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

 

Can I break 2:00 on a Pylon?

This is right up there with the best stalker times.

I think my nin/bio is the current fastest stalker and is likely using a similarly twisted build* to maximize output just barely edges out these times. And that build is pretty squishy to get there

 

*4-5 procs in each attack, musculature, no acc/end slotting but enough tohit and bonuses to hit +3

 

not sure anyone should feel great about tanks being this this strong offensively and defensively. Even if we dismiss this as a single target  outlier build the aoe potential is still unbelievable too.

 

I will def be remaking my old fire/ss tank if all this goes live. I think FEs flat damage bonus should let you cruise thru rage crash while still doing solid damage in addition to procs like you. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Frosticus

[Captain Powerhouse]

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Swapped back to Gloom and tossed the new Force of Will, Weaken Resolve

Keep in mind that ranged -res is currently doing more res on tankers and brutes than intended in pineapple.

[Vanden]

4 hours ago, Frosticus said:

not sure anyone should feel great about tanks being this this strong offensively and defensively

With such heavy use of procs, the actual Tanker's contribution to that damage is pretty much minimized.

[Demon Shell]

11 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Hurl could become a cone attack hitting everything in its path of travel. This would make it much more useful i think as the set does not have a cone attack.

File under "cool, but impractical".

 

I'd love to see that added.

[Frosticus]

44 minutes ago, Vanden said:

With such heavy use of procs, the actual Tanker's contribution to that damage is pretty much minimized.

You could say the same of the stalker I mentioned, which probably has even more procs than the tanker build being highlighted.

 

Plus bio/ss probably isn't even the highest damage tank build, whereas that nin/bio stalker is (for single target, although my stj/bio stalker is right behind it), has no aoe and is about as tough as tissue paper.

[Sir Myshkin]

5 hours ago, Frosticus said:

 

not sure anyone should feel great about tanks being this this strong offensively and defensively. Even if we dismiss this as a single target  outlier build the aoe potential is still unbelievable too.

I agree with this. When I was averaging 3-4:00 minute times with the improvement buffs, this was still a comfortable zone, but finding a path to push that to breaking below 2:00, it definitely didn’t sit right. My request to test the proposed change was under the intent to essentially need the state of Rage/SS while giving it relevant teaming and solo purpose with the bruise concept. That would give it the ability to still stay a stronger set, but with the intent of dramatically bringing it back down. With sets like Bio Armor I’d anticipate it to still be a tad over the normalcy, but definitely not able to breach the same scale as this.

4 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Keep in mind that ranged -res is currently doing more res on tankers and brutes than intended in pineapple.

So are you referring to Weaken Resolve in this? It lists -15%, is this not correct then? Gloom doesn’t have any -Res component. Even if -15% is over, it’s contribution in the scenario isn’t as significant as it may seem. It was poorly timed on my part and only shaved 8-16/s off of my attempts that didn’t include the ability.

 

I think it’s also a bit worth mentioning I didn’t have to slot the ability for anything. Global brought it down below its duration, Rage gave me enough to-hit to cover accuracy, and its end cost was so low that Tank recovery more than compensates its base, unenhanced value.

41 minutes ago, Vanden said:

With such heavy use of procs, the actual Tanker's contribution to that damage is pretty much minimized.

The core of what procs did here is stabilize between the existing crashes, but they are not the whole of how this particular build is hitting these values. I’ve already talked about several proc-based builds in my Tanker thread on this topic, so I already have a baseline to measure against. Others have posted about making this same kind of Bio/SS build and their performance, with different (less stressed) proc focus, and gotten similar >3:00 times.

 

If I gave up some of my rules on how the proc builds are built, I could stress more damage and try and find another avenue to get into Achilles Heel. Won’t necessarily get to this same level, but we’re talking about specifically abusing the fact that between Hybrid and 2xRage, I’m achieving 400% +Damage, neither of which procs benefit from. And I’m doing it solo.

[Auroxis]

The current top time I have on Bio/SS is 2:35(hybrid off), that's with Gloom and Weaken Resolve (pre whatever nerf CP has in store). My build is also softcapped to most defenses so damage isn't the whole focus.

 

Regarding Rage, I have no problem with the change. I like that there's a no-crash option to choose if team buffs are sufficient, though I'd like a second visual aid for it.

 

What if to resemble the red "Weakened" text, there was a white "Rage Diminished" text when Rage's duration ends with a single stack?

Edited September 29, 2019 by Auroxis

[Captain Powerhouse]

30 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

So are you referring to Weaken Resolve in this? It lists -15%, is this not correct then? Gloom doesn’t have any -Res component. Even if -15% is over, it’s contribution in the scenario isn’t as significant as it may seem. It was poorly timed on my part and only shaved 8-16/s off of my attempts that didn’t include the ability.

 

Weaken Resolve and melt armor should had been -9.75% for both brutes and tankers. Number will be a bit different to that on the next patch due other tanker changes.

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Golden Azrael]

On 9/12/2019 at 8:37 PM, Myrmidon said:

 

I’ll adapt to whatever option I am given, however, I think that this is more beneficial to the larger playerbase.

 

Honestly, If Castle had just removed the Stacking element of Rage (eliminating the need for the penalties), we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place.

It's a fair comment.  It think it's the penalties that drives me nuts.  Especially on a shield (defence) based brute.  Crash.  If you're on 23% as a l 50?  Yer dead unless you run from teh mob.

 

'look, at Superman....he's running away...!'

 

"Except it annihilates the reason some of us play super strength in ~Brute~ archetypes. "

 

Stacked for SS.  Non-stack for all non SS tanks.  Simples.  That would really help the so-so damage of ice, energy and stone.  Along with the base dam and group ceiling and splash AoE changes....tanks would be more compelling to play.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

17 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Weaken Resolve and melt armor should had been -9.75% for both brutes and tankers. Number will be a bit different to that on the next patch due other tanker changes.

 

Any chance for customisable Taunts, Captain Powerhouse?  By that, I mean.  /Taunt 1 or /Taunt 2.  The 'ahhhh....' vs the 'Hurrrr' (sick bucket.)  I really don't like the 'HurrGHH!' (It seems to be on all my tanks....but my Duo Partner's SS/Fire tanker (big body type) has the 'Ahhhh' while every one I've rolled is HURGGGHHHHH!  

 

It drives me crazy.

 

Azrael.

[Vanden]

23 hours ago, Auroxis said:

What if to resemble the red "Weakened" text, there was a white "Rage Diminished" text when Rage's duration ends with a single stack?

What about "Rage mastered?"

[Auroxis]

13 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What about "Rage mastered?"

That sounds too positive I think? The point is to remind the player he should refresh Rage (without the need to look for orange circles around red icons during hectic fights).

Edited September 30, 2019 by Auroxis