Realistically, what's the actual workload to take down the war walls and connect the zones?

[Neogumbercules]

OK so I know the answer is "it's basically a new game" level of work. But we have the source code wide open. Has anyone actually quantified it? 

 

Off the top of my head you'd have to redo every single contact, the nav system, find a way to logically mesh the zones together, fix everything that relies on coordinates within a zone, npcs, traffic, enemy layouts, probably update the game engine to support the huge zone, come up with a ton of new network features, and probably a million other things I haven't even scratched the surface on.

 

But really there's got to be a way to quantify that work, and... Maybe see if it's even possible. 

[Lines]

Phwoah, what a question...

 

With infinite technical knowledge and infinite man-hours, I wouldn't say it's out of the question at all. Those are huge and obvious restrictions.

 

I looked at the map for a while after reading this. There's a lot of space doing nothing in between the war walls and the zones don't actually tessellate. It could be resolved, but some stretching or extending of the zones might be necessary. Some new areas would be needed, such as the bridge/tunnel between Steel and Boomtown. If Peregrine Isle were added to this borderless city, then there are whole shores that would need to be considered.

 

Thematically, some zones don't sit well together. Crey's Folly and Eden would be particularly odd zones to try to consolidate into their neighbours, right down to having a different 'tint'.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Lines

[MetaVileTerror]

With my understanding, the game wouldn't/couldn't be one large zone.  The engine just can't support something of that size.

 

We could, potentially, get the Praetoria treatment.  Get close to the edge of a zone, and be instantly sent to the next one over.  Not ideal for Paragon City, given how much space there is between zones on the "world" map . . . but it seems like an easy thing for the Rogue Isles.  We already don't have traditional War Walls there, and an "open ocean" zone would be /really/ low-impact on the server, heh.  Could be a fun way to have some smaller Villain Zones added too, with little islands forming the greater archipelago of the Etoiles.

 

Of course, the other issue with the War Walls is how much content references and even uses them.  There are quite a few missions which have the War Walls as a major narrative element.  While we could relegate that content to Ouroboros, something would need to fill the gap.  That's an additional workload right there.

 

Additionally, there's something to be said to roleplay agency in leaving so much of the city unseen; it grants players the opportunity to state that their characters originate from areas of Paragon City which are not part of neighbourhoods with established zones.  Players can also build bases to represent those unseen areas.

 

So . . . in my opinion, I think the amount of work you would be looking at far outstrips the feasibility.  Considering how long it took the paid Devs of Live to create new zones, and overhaul of this magnitude is liable to take years of dedicated work, and that doesn't even assume that it would be functionally possible.

 

 

On the other hand:  Taking down certain -pieces- of the War Walls in specific zones could be interesting, I think.  Some gaps in the walls could make for interesting content additions.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Neogumbercules said:

But really there's got to be a way to quantify that work, and... Maybe see if it's even possible. 

Second Life shows that it's possible to have a huge open world with adjacent 'zones'...  It also shows that there's tremendous problems at the borders between zones.  (UO also had, and AFAIK still has, tremendous problems at the 'seams' between adjacent server tiles. Many duping scams/exploits involved taking advantage of the synchronization issues inherent in crossing those seams.)

Now, it is true that Praetoria seems (IIRC) to have solved many (most? all?) of those problems...  But it's a much smaller map and was designed from the ground up.

[PaxArcana]

The answer to the OP's question is:

A TOTAL GROUND-UP REWRITE OF THE ENTIRE GAME.
Every line of code.  No exceptions.

Welcome to City of Heroes II ...!

 

Seriously, that's what it would take.

[justicebeliever]

3 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Additionally, there's something to be said to roleplay agency in leaving so much of the city unseen; it grants players the opportunity to state that their characters originate from areas of Paragon City which are not part of neighbourhoods with established zones.  Players can also build bases to represent those unseen areas.

Is there canon for areas of Paragon city that aren’t established zones?

[Sniktch]

Somewhere between man-years and man-decades of code labor.

[Zep]

I'd be happy with changing how they look.

 

Much more transparent for example, a base that is a bit lower then current with projectors facing upwards. I'd be happy with the war walls being replaces with the same barriers used for open zone instances - a thin blue force field that is only visible close up.  Much less ugly and still in place for story and function.

 

I'd love to see all the in-between spaces fleshed out. Put in housing tracts, low level zones for now - add a lot of space for the RP crowd and more places for low to mid level instance doors. I just done see the manpower being there.

 

I was at a meet-n-greet in SF back in the live days and asked about removing the War Walls and all of the devs in earshot had their eyes bug out and a massive amount of defensiveness followed. 

 

I wonder if someone could put together an AI based random zone generator?

[Vanden]

There'd also be a ton of art work. Right now, the buildings on the far sides of the war walls look really bad, but that's okay because you can't get close to them and can only see them though the war walls. There's also virtually nothing at street level that makes it look like, you know, a city. The borders of every single zone would have to be redone to make it look presentable. But even more than that, it'd have to be done in such a way as to make it clear to anyone approaching that they're getting close to the edge of the zone. In Praetoria, the city is broken up into a series of islands, so it's easy to tell when you're getting close to the edge of a zone, but in Paragon City, there'd be no easy way to tell at a glance if you're approaching the border.

[PaxArcana]

10 minutes ago, Zep said:

Much more transparent for example, a base that is a bit lower then current with projectors facing upwards. I'd be happy with the war walls being replaces with the same barriers used for open zone instances - a thin blue force field that is only visible close up.  Much less ugly and still in place for story and function.

This would still require a great deal of intense work.

 

Because, you see, there isn't anything on the other side of the War Walls.  Not even empty land.  Just a fairly basic skybox.  To make it work like the boundaries in, say, a Mayhem mission (those blue force-fields you mentioned), the dev team would have to actually model something for you to see, on the other side of the force-field.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I dont think we need to take down nor remove the war walls entirely, as such massive structures would in RL be simply too costly to completely demolish, However turning off the upper force field part, and making the entire border a doorway transition zone would be awesome so we wouldnt need to go to specific gates to transition.

 

Not sure if that would be less difficult but imo would be the more thematic way to approach such a massive change. No need to do one giant world with no borders etc.

[PaxArcana]

Except, if you look at a map of Paragon ... the zones don't border directly on each other that way, Bentley.

[Ironblade]

The workload would be, quite simply, too much to be worth it.
Removing the War Walls would be a minor Quality Of Life improvement.  Instead, we could get new powersets, new content, etc.

[Lines]

I don't think it would improve quality of life at all. I for one would be lost all the time.

[Yomo Kimyata]

It's something I never thought about before. 

 

Why do you want the walls to come down?  What personally do you have to gain from that?  Is it RP or play related?

 

If it's significant and many/most players want it and it's easily and cheaply accomplished, then I have no objection.

[Ry]

You may as well make an entirely new game. 

 

I personally see no benefit to taking down the War Walls. They're there for a reason and the story for them is more than justified. Removing them now if it were possible would be weird. Only way I could see it being plausible (on a story scale, not a coding/mechanical one) would be the villains teaming up to disable them and invade sections of the city.

[justicebeliever]

Well, I can think of some good reasons.  Chiefly, think of the energy savings.  If we don’t have to power the war walls then Paragon can redirect all that excess energy into the grid, and further reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.

 

Plus, it’s not like there are any big threats coming our way anymore.  We totally defeated the Rikti, and the Preatorians.  And even if they came back which seems so unlikely, we have Statesman and the Shining Stars to help out...(wait...what’s that?  He’s dead?  And Sister Psyche?  Shining Stars, totally useless huh?  Really? Rikti are still kicking around? Huh)...Nevermind keep the war walls up!

 

In the real world, while it would be more fun without the walls, the coding effort seems like it wouldn’t be worth it.  I’d rather have new story arcs and villain groups.

[RikOz]

I'd be happy if there was simply a way to tone down the blazing blue light from the war walls. Like, replace that swirling blue light with, say, a mesh that is more or less invisible from a distance, so it stops being a major feature of every screenshot.

[TraumaTrain]

First, the Rikti would have to come to the conclusion they cannot win their war here on Earth.

 

Then representatives from the UN Security Council, Vanguard, the US State Department, Paragon City officials, Statesman (secretly Tyrant), and many others would have to sit down with Rikti representatives and sign peace accords.

 

A plan to dismantle the walls, while keeping some sort of safeguard in place, would need to be drawn up. Funding would need to be secured. (I imagine a reasonable tax on Wentworth's might be enough.)

 

Then construction contracts...

 

It would be a lot of effort. 

[MetaVileTerror]

Meanwhile, Lord Recluse makes certain that all those palms are WELL greased, and the (de)construction crews work around the clock.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

You  guys know the War Walls are entirely for the Rikti right? And based on the arcs in the RWZ its not entirely unreasonable to think that eventually the walls themselves would be deactivated, not torn down but turned off, to if nothing else facilitate heroes flying around the city to reach crimes quicker. I mean maybe with the dark astoria arcs they might still be needed, but you end up defeating Mot in those so really even that threat is largely quelled by the arcs wrap up.

 

And groups like Crey and Arachnos love them walls, because they breed fear and create a sense of being under constant threat. Divide and conquer, confuse and quell dissent.

[boggo2300]

41 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Meanwhile, Lord Recluse makes certain that all those palms are WELL greased, and the (de)construction crews work around the clock.

like recluse is that competant

[Lunchmoney]

I like the Walls, they have story.

What I want to know; who paid for them? The Rogue Isles?

[RikOz]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

And groups like Crey and Arachnos love them walls, because they breed fear and create a sense of being under constant threat. Divide and conquer, confuse and quell dissent.

In the New Praetorians arc that starts in Brickstown, ol' Wossname, the Praetorian rebellion leader, at one point hollers something about Paragon City clearly being some kind of fascist regime, just look at the war walls.

[SaintD]

4 hours ago, Lunchmoney said:

I like the Walls, they have story.

What I want to know; who paid for them? The Rogue Isles?

The backstory for City of Heroes is almost post apocalyptic. The Rikti Invasion was world wide, and they slaughtered the absolute hell out of us for six months.

Money wasn't particularly the issue when the War Walls were built.