Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for January 6, 2020

[Sovera]

CoH is the aRPG of MMOs. Leave it to WoW to be super finnicky and have carefully cultivated DPS checks and etc. CoH is Path of Exile. We start whiffing on zombies and end the game clearing rooms of enemies with one skill. And just like there is room for PoE in the gaming industry I say there's room for CoH in the current MMO industry who uniformly follows the path of small four elite mobs serving as trash between the entry of the dungeon until reaching the boss.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Captain Citadel said:

If your characters have 90% damage resistance and a 5% chance to be hit, you shouldn't be worried about their HP.

Please show me this mythical Brute build with permanently softcapped defense and 90% resistance to all. Until then, accept that your position is far more extreme than my stating that having additional hit points (and corresponding regeneration) has a notable effect on survival.

Edited January 16, 2020 by siolfir

[Wavicle]

8 hours ago, skoryy said:

I'll believe this game needs more difficult content when I hear more incarnate raids and Dark Astoria teams forming over LFG.

I don't think I understand the point being made here.  Is the suggestion that people don't do iTrials and DA enough because they're too hard?

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, sacredlunatic said:

I don't think I understand the point being made here.  Is the suggestion that people don't do iTrials and DA enough because they're too hard?

Well, yes.  If we can arrange MSR teams on the regular, then why not BAF or TPN?  Why smacking around Council on PI and not DA repeatables?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

Well, yes.  If we can arrange MSR teams on the regular, then why not BAF or TPN?  Why smacking around Council on PI and not DA repeatables?

On Excelsior I fairly frequently see DA teams and itrials frequently.  Lambda, BAF, and Keyes are most popular, but I see the others as well, including many badge runs.

But honestly, I think a big part of why is sidekicking.  People would prefer to run content they can bring lower level people along with.  They CAN come to DA but Incarnate missions can be pretty tough for lower levels.

[Wavicle]

but regardless of any of that...

Generally, people feel the game is very easy (I think that's correct) and that, as a result, Control and Tank roles are somewhat devalued.

To me it seems clear that content with dangerous mobs and high damage environments makes those roles more valuable.  Controllers have a support set to fall back on, sure, and Doms do excellent damage.

Is there disagreement that the Tank role itself (as opposed to the Tanker AT) is of value even in the hardest content?

Edited January 16, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Only eclipsed by AE, the gobstopper whale of a blunder.

Who could have guessed that letting people design their own missions would lead to low risk, high reward xp/loot farms.  ... 

 

Lol

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

but regardless of any of that...

Generally, people feel the game is very easy (I think that's correct) and that, as a result, Control and Tank roles are somewhat devalued.

To me it seems clear that content with dangerous mobs and high damage environments makes those roles more valuable.  Controllers have a support set to fall back on, sure, and Doms do excellent damage.

Is there disagreement that the Tank role itself (as opposed to the Tanker AT) is of value even in the hardest content?

Outside of a handful of baddie groups anyway.  

 

Rularu are one where you at least need a few helpers for x8 size spawns. 

 

Those Longbow Grav controllers when you get multiples.  

 

The PPD Kheldian gangs. 

 

A few that come to mind.  

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

Homecoming has inadvertently shone a bright light on these imbalances because of how much easier it is to put together top-tier builds here than it ever was on Live.

Nail on the head.

[Myrmidon]

37 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Outside of a handful of baddie groups anyway.  

 

Rularu are one where you at least need a few helpers for x8 size spawns. 

 

Those Longbow Grav controllers when you get multiples.  

 

The PPD Kheldian gangs. 

 

A few that come to mind.  

Don’t leave out good old Vanguard.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

I don't think I understand the point being made here.  Is the suggestion that people don't do iTrials and DA enough because they're too hard?

Many people don’t farm the trials simply because they no longer have to. Dark Astoria sees a lot more action because it’s actual story arc content, something we can play (albeit more challenging) that same way that the majority of the players that I have ever met (both before and after The Snap) want to actually play the game. Even Incarnate Taskforce options (more things like Tin Mage and Apex) would be better than raiding until you puke.

 

 

I’ve always thought that not making Praetoria into an Incarnate zone (along with all of the said content that followed) was a huge error on the Part of Paragon Studios and I always will.

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

I’ve always thought that not making Praetoria into an Incarnate zone (along with all of the said content that followed) was a huge error on the Part of Paragon Studios and I always will.

I can see the reasoning behind it: people were clamoring for more/different/better low-level content because they were tired of seeing the same missions on every alt, and there are far more characters in the lower levels than in the upper levels due to people making alts to try different combinations. It was a simple matter of numbers at that point.

[Haijinx]

25 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Nail on the head.

Yeah.  I never could afford the 2 billion inf builds in the old days. 

 

Now I have one, and some other tier 2 builds as well.  

 

And really I only play casually.  

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I can see the reasoning behind it: people were clamoring for more/different/better low-level content because they were tired of seeing the same missions on every alt, and there are far more characters in the lower levels than in the upper levels due to people making alts to try different combinations. It was a simple matter of numbers at that point.

Yeah Going Rogue was their last real push to expand their subscription model playerbase

[Myrmidon]

On 1/16/2020 at 6:01 PM, Haijinx said:

Yeah.  I never could afford the 2 billion inf builds in the old days. 

 

Now I have one, and some other tier 2 builds as well.  

 

And really I only play casually.  

With the smaller player base and the ease of Invention System use, fully powered characters are in abundance. This highlights the need for the very AT passes that we have seen (and will continue to see) from the Homecoming team. I like the Dominator changes and look forward to these Tanker/Mastermind changes that are coming. Can’t wait to see what lies beyond.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Myrmidon]

Looks like we are getting closer to Copy.😁

 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Seriously though why does it need to be a problem?  I play my tanks more than brutes now, and enjoy them more.

 

Ive never seen anyone get offended that more than one tank is on the team.

 

And personally I could care less that more people are playing brutes than tanks also - that's mainly because of ae farming anyway.   

 

Ive played a lot of tanks and I wouldn't call any of them boring to play, and its not like its hard to level up in homecoming too.

 

I just dont see any reason why the two cant share the same space.  Who cares what anyone else chooses, if its fun play it.  If its not don't.  Dont worry about what it's title is, play it enjoy it.

thats crazy talk. I play my tanks because I want to play my tanks, others play their brutes because thats what they find fun. I would like a tank buff so they can contribute almost as much as a brute. That simple. If they had equal damage and mitigation, neither would disappear because they each have their fans because of their different play style.

[nicoliy]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Looks like we are getting closer to Copy.😁

 

 

good catch, I didn't see that. I'm happy if those changes go live.

[Galaxy Brain]

Having spent a good chunk of time trying this out, I think the overall changes are great as a baseline! Though certain sets need help here and there with AoE now that it is a ffocus, and some AoEs (Fire Breath...) are still kinda bad even with boosts.

 

As for Bruising, I will say that after playing Sentinels that I feel Tankers should have had their inherit. Tanks having a way to mark a target as a team-focus, and all their attacks having a very small, non-stacking from the same user Res/Def debuff instead of 1 attack having a moderate debuff.

 

 

The IO bonuses are another matter, but upon thinking of it I think the problem with them is that a full set not only gives you the IO bonuses but also fantastic enhancement values as well. Even though each IO is split into different values per stat, a full set will net you much more than SO slotting on top of the bonuses, which compound onto the enhancement values.

[Biosphere]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

As for Bruising, I will say that after playing Sentinels that I feel Tankers should have had their inherit. Tanks having a way to mark a target as a team-focus, and all their attacks having a very small, non-stacking from the same user Res/Def debuff instead of 1 attack having a moderate debuff.

 

I completely agree with this statement. Only I would keep Gauntlet how it performs, but add a -range component to taunted enemies naturally. Add the Sentinel inherent to the Tanker's attacks in general and call it a day.

[EmperorSteele]

I know it's too late to reverse course on any of this, but after doing some testing on my own, I'm not 100% thrilled with the changes.

My testing consisted of putting Nictus Romulus (level 50 AV) in an AE mission and beating him up (with an Invuln/Rad), recording my time. I did this on Live, transferred over, and tried it a few times on test. On Live, I beat him in an average of 5.5 minutes. On Test, it was 7 minutes. So, not horrible, but not exactly an upgrade, either. I'm sure I could make some build changes to make the difference back up, so it's not a huge deal.

Even so, thanks for all the care and effort you're putting into all this! It's awesome that you're actively developing the game instead of just opening a server and letting it languish!

[Biosphere]

 

I keep finding examples like this in the Tanker attack sets. Crowd Control says it's a Cone explicitly in the effect area, but then shows it can hit 16 targets. According to what I've read this should actually be 10 targets. Is this an error in the text or is this reporting accurately?

 

Here's another weird example.

 

 

Frost says it's a cone, but then has an attack type of AoE. It's got 16 targets on it too, but what is it? Does the game consider this an AoE or a Cone?

[summers]

1 hour ago, Biosphere said:

 

I keep finding examples like this in the Tanker attack sets. Crowd Control says it's a Cone explicitly in the effect area, but then shows it can hit 16 targets. According to what I've read this should actually be 10 targets. Is this an error in the text or is this reporting accurately?

 

Here's another weird example.

 

 

Frost says it's a cone, but then has an attack type of AoE. It's got 16 targets on it too, but what is it? Does the game consider this an AoE or a Cone?

 

War Mace: Crowd Control pre-patch had 10 targets, so maybe they've given it 16 to allow it a boost. It's a melee attack that takes PBAOE sets (you swing your hammer!)

 

Ice Melee: Frost is a cone attack, and takes AOE sets (you shoot a cone of ice out of your hands), and further had 10 targets pre-patch.

[aethereal]

There thing down in attack type are the tags used for the purposes of determining which defenses are calling to this attack, if I'm not mistaken.  So crowd control is defended by Merle defense or smashing defense, and frost is defended by aoe defense or cold defense.  There is no "cone" defense, and cones will typically be defended by melee if in someone's opinion they're basically just big melee swings, and aoe if they seem more like area-covering powers.  Which is clearly a judgment call.

[EmperorSteele]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

 Which is clearly a judgment call.

 

No, Judgements are clearly AoEs and can't be enhanced anyway =P

/s