Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[Crysis]

Been a few weeks since the Great Exemplaring Influence Fix of 2020 (or as I like to call it, GrIEF 2020).

 

I’m kind of not shocked this thread is at 57 pages after merges.  It’s clearly a hot topic.

 

Have I adjusted to this rate of influence decrease?  Maybe.  I end up having do a LOT more accumulation of low level recipes, buying/accumulating salvage, crafting/converting enhancements and selling/bidding/processing sales on the Marketplace.  I think this is what the Devs wanted us to do...less farming, more standing around playing the market.  But since Influence is how you support Alt’s, doesn’t leave a lot of choice.

 

Fortunately, several of the more prolific Marketeers have been profiting off of Marketplace exploits for months now, most bragging about it openly.  I’m wondering how long before the Devs decide to be truly fair here and shut down those exploits just like they did the “Influence Exploit” here?  

Edited April 19, 2020 by Crysis

[Grouchybeast]

1 minute ago, Crysis said:

Fortunately, several of the more prolific Marketeers have been profiting off of Marketplace exploits for months now, most bragging about it openly.  I’m wondering how long before the Devs decide to be truly fair here and shut down those exploits just like they did the “Influence Exploit” here?  

That would be fantastic.  The display glitch in the AH is stupendously annoying.

[Yomo Kimyata]

35 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

That would be fantastic.  The display glitch in the AH is stupendously annoying.

More than annoying.  Truly detrimental to anyone who doesn't realize that the last 5 display may not be accurate.  We've been trumpeting awareness and pushing to have that fixed since day 1!

[Yomo Kimyata]

57 minutes ago, Crysis said:

 

 

Fortunately, several of the more prolific Marketeers have been profiting off of Marketplace exploits for months now, most bragging about it openly.  I’m wondering how long before the Devs decide to be truly fair here and shut down those exploits just like they did the “Influence Exploit” here?  

I realize I'm setting myself up here, but other than the display bug, what other exploits are you referring to?

[Haijinx]

On 4/18/2020 at 4:23 AM, Lines said:

I don't think the thread should be locked. Folks clearly still need to vent and it's better that it happens here.

 

Just at least put down your own wants and consider the bigger picture when you do, or at least conceptually understand that this is a practical step to keep us away from the unhealthy economy we had on the original servers.

Also.  It serves as an display thread for really dumb MMO economic ideas.

 

 

[EmmySky]

2 hours ago, Crysis said:

Been a few weeks since the Great Influence Exploit Fix of 2020 (or as I like to call it, GrIEF 2020).

FTFY

 

So the words and acronym match 😀

[tidge]

8 hours ago, Gremlin said:

I'm happy to share trading strategies and techniques. e.g. rare roulette, opening packs. I don't want to announce the exact niches that I'm working at the moment though. The reason is that competition between traders drives down profit margins.

Disclosing niches is one of the few areas of Ebil^TM which are not discussed. Disclosing the other areas of non-disclosure is among the other things not discussed.

[Yomo Kimyata]

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

Disclosing niches is one of the few areas of Ebil^TM which are not discussed. Disclosing the other areas of non-disclosure is among the other things not discussed.

This thread got off to a slow start, but I think eventually had some decent ideas:

 

I think the Market forums has a lot of great ideas, but admittedly it may not completely transparent in displaying them.  

[Gremlin]

3 hours ago, Crysis said:

Fortunately, several of the more prolific Marketeers have been profiting off of Marketplace exploits for months now, most bragging about it openly.  I’m wondering how long before the Devs decide to be truly fair here and shut down those exploits just like they did the “Influence Exploit” here?

I'm not aware of any exploits but if they exist I'd be delighted for the devs to fix them. I'd be doubly delighted if you're talking about the Last 5 bug.

[SwitchFade]

14 hours ago, Crysis said:

Been a few weeks since the Great Exemplaring Influence Fix of 2020 (or as I like to call it, GrIEF 2020).

 

I’m kind of not shocked this thread is at 57 pages after merges.  It’s clearly a hot topic.

 

Have I adjusted to this rate of influence decrease?  Maybe.  I end up having do a LOT more accumulation of low level recipes, buying/accumulating salvage, crafting/converting enhancements and selling/bidding/processing sales on the Marketplace.  I think this is what the Devs wanted us to do...less farming, more standing around playing the market.  But since Influence is how you support Alt’s, doesn’t leave a lot of choice.

 

Fortunately, several of the more prolific Marketeers have been profiting off of Marketplace exploits for months now, most bragging about it openly.  I’m wondering how long before the Devs decide to be truly fair here and shut down those exploits just like they did the “Influence Exploit” here?  

First, your acronym as you wrote it is GREIF, not GRIEF, party foul.

 

Second, it would be more appropriate to call it:

 

"Operation Wilfull Negative Economic Determent" fix, or O.W.N.E.D.

 

Why? That's exactly what happened to the selfish people who advocate rampant inflation for personal benefit to the detriment of all others.

Edited April 20, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Myrmidon]

37 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

it would be more appropriate to call it:

 

"Operation Wilfull Negative Economic Determent" fix, or O.W.N.E.D.

 

Why? That's exactly what happened to the selfish people who advocate rampant inflation for personal benefit to the detriment of all others.

I love it.🤣

[Peerless Girl]

On 4/18/2020 at 11:50 PM, killigraphy said:

Honestly, its irrelevant, farmers gonna keep farming, and flooding the ah  with ridiculous prices. I would rather they focused on fixing powersets like AR or Martial arts, instead of getting rid of inf gain. Especially when IO's are still the way of life.

 

That...really has nothing to do with what was done. If farmers flood the AH with ridiculous prices, they won't sell at all, or certainly not quickly. The SO change is going to be a huge quality of life fix for low level players who want a cheaper "good enough" option. As has been said multiple times, the game is (and had better stay) balanced around SOs, so IOs while you may feel they are "the way of life" they are not required, nor should they ever be. What was done was a (relatively easy) fix to an exploit that's had it's roots in the game for a LONG time, and the implications across the economy are going to end up a net positive by the end, despite what some cry.

[Digirium]

3 hours ago, Peerless Girl said:

If farmers flood the AH with ridiculous prices

What the? Your bias has been obvious for a long time. If farmers were farming a lot of influence from farms why would they also farm the auction house for influence as well? Attempting to take those two things together does not tie together within any sensible sense of reason. On the contrary, farmers tended to be "market neutral" and in fact supported the market selling recipes dropped during farms on the cheap - directly to the real negative drain on the game, the profiteering "doesn't play the game" marketeers providing a so-called "service" (for themselves, may be).

[Major_Decoy]

1 minute ago, Digirium said:

What the? Your bias has been obvious for a long time. If farmers were farming a lot of influence from farms why would they also farm the auction house for influence as well? Attempting to take those two things together does not tie together within any sensible sense of reason. On the contrary, farmers tended to be "market neutral" and in fact supported the market selling recipes dropped during farms on the cheap - directly to the real negative drain on the game, the profiteering "doesn't play the game" marketeers providing a so-called "service" (for themselves, may be).

Digirium, it feels like you didn't read her entire post. If you look at the post she's quoting it says "farmers gonna keep farming, and flooding the ah with ridiculous prices"

 

Her entire post is working off of someone else's premise that farming are going to flood the auction house. It is not her bias that put farmers in that position.

[Digirium]

42 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Digirium, it feels like you didn't read her entire post. If you look at the post she's quoting it says "farmers gonna keep farming, and flooding the ah with ridiculous prices"

 

Her entire post is working off of someone else's premise that farming are going to flood the auction house. It is not her bias that put farmers in that position.

Err, I've been reading their posts - they're biased completely against farming, keep on repeating the same unhelpful false narratives.

[Major_Decoy]

4 minutes ago, Digirium said:

Err, I've been reading their posts - they're biased completely against farming, keep on repeating the same unhelpful false narratives.

Then you chose an exceeding poor example of it. Killigraphy made the argument that farmers would flood the market with ridiculous prices, not Peerless Girl. So your response saying that it clearly showed the bias would be better directed at Killigraphy.

[Peerless Girl]

1 hour ago, Digirium said:

What the? Your bias has been obvious for a long time. If farmers were farming a lot of influence from farms why would they also farm the auction house for influence as well? Attempting to take those two things together does not tie together within any sensible sense of reason. On the contrary, farmers tended to be "market neutral" and in fact supported the market selling recipes dropped during farms on the cheap - directly to the real negative drain on the game, the profiteering "doesn't play the game" marketeers providing a so-called "service" (for themselves, may be).

 

You need to read more carefully, I was quoting someone else.

 

57 minutes ago, Digirium said:

Err, I've been reading their posts - they're biased completely against farming, keep on repeating the same unhelpful false narratives.

 

Yes, I've been clear that I personally don't care for farming, and that if it were up to me, it would be severely curtailed, however I also said that it's good that it *isn't* up to me, and that's why we're lucky we have a dev team that rarely if ever lets their personal biases influence their dev decision. Nothing I've said in this thread has been false for sure, and I don't feel they've been unhelpful either, except in the sense where I expose other people's obvious bias and agendas. Might want to look in the mirror "Hector Projector" before accusing others of projecting bias. Bias is by the way, not inherently a bad thing, not even--arguably--in journalism, AS LONG AS said bias is clear and upfront and identified, not hidden. I have never been unclear or hidden about my personal dislike for farming.

 

[Digirium]

1 minute ago, Peerless Girl said:

 

You need to read more carefully, I was quoting someone else.

 

 

Yes, I've been clear that I personally don't care for farming, and that if it were up to me, it would be severely curtailed, however I also said that it's good that it *isn't* up to me, and that's why we're lucky we have a dev team that rarely if ever lets their personal biases influence their dev decision. Nothing I've said in this thread has been false for sure, and I don't feel they've been unhelpful either, except in the sense where I expose other people's obvious bias and agendas. Might want to look in the mirror "Hector Projector" before accusing others of projecting bias. Bias is by the way, not inherently a bad thing, not even--arguably--in journalism, AS LONG AS said bias is clear and upfront and identified, not hidden. I have never been unclear or hidden about my personal dislike for farming.

 

I will make it very clear for you. Farmers do not and never have set the prices on the market. There are people that create niches to make profit for themselves - they are the actual exploiters. Farming is a response to those profiteers. People playing the game just because they need influence to buy those enhancements -- they fall in to the same category as farmers. Your bias against farmers extends to any player playing the game and your arguments and narratives undermine anyone and everyone playing the game.

 

Fixing the patrol experience so it was used up when under exemplar would have been fine and not lead to any backlash.

 

Removing the option to have influence instead of experience at the same time? It's a step that went too far and it affects everyone. Anyone saying they're fine with that are like "turkeys voting for and agreeing with Christmas/Thanksgiving". The amount of influence entering the game is not and never was the issue - saying that it is, is a blind. A blind to the real issue.

 

The real issue was and still is marketeers manipulating the market, creating a niche, setting their prices high. Sure, that can be competed with but who has the time to take for that when all everyone wants to do is play the game, Entering in to market PvP for the hell of it against the niche may be fun for a short while but you can be certain that the profiteers will to profit is strong/obsessive.

 

It was a sad day when influence instead of experience was removed as an option - it needs restored and I hope the devs are reading.

[Major_Decoy]

4 minutes ago, Digirium said:

I will make it very clear for you. Farmers do not and never have set the prices on the market.

How can you be so entirely illiterate? This is NOT a claim that Peerless Girl has made. It is irrelevant to the dialogue you quoted. I cannot fathom how you believe this to be a coherent response. Read.

[Digirium]

Just now, Major_Decoy said:

How can you be so entirely illiterate? This is NOT a claim that Peerless Girl has made. It is irrelevant to the dialogue you quoted. I cannot fathom how you believe this to be a coherent response. Read.

Peerless Girl is obviously the pivot point for something that needed to be said. Your interventions are obvious for what they are and are not helpful.

[Lines]

9 minutes ago, Digirium said:

I will make it very clear for you. Farmers do not and never have set the prices on the market. There are people that create niches to make profit for themselves - they are the actual exploiters. Farming is a response to those profiteers. People playing the game just because they need influence to buy those enhancements -- they fall in to the same category as farmers. Your bias against farmers extends to any player playing the game and your arguments and narratives undermine anyone and everyone playing the game.

 

Fixing the patrol experience so it was used up when under exemplar would have been fine and not lead to any backlash.

 

Removing the option to have influence instead of experience at the same time? It's a step that went too far and it affects everyone. Anyone saying they're fine with that are like "turkeys voting for and agreeing with Christmas/Thanksgiving". The amount of influence entering the game is not and never was the issue - saying that it is, is a blind. A blind to the real issue.

 

The real issue was and still is marketeers manipulating the market, creating a niche, setting their prices high. Sure, that can be competed with but who has the time to take for that when all everyone wants to do is play the game, Entering in to market PvP for the hell of it against the niche may be fun for a short while but you can be certain that the profiteers will to profit is strong/obsessive.

 

It was a sad day when influence instead of experience was removed as an option - it needs restored and I hope the devs are reading.

 

I feel as though you're overestimating how much influence people can actually have on the market, particularly sellers. A seller can only follow the market, it would be a mistake to try to manipulate prices to be higher, especially on homecoming where everyone has very easy access to desirable IOs. plus keeping in mind we can only see previous purchase prices, we can't see what anything is being sold for. The 'niches' are bulk purchases, not sales, usually trash uncommon IO recipes (How many uncommon teleport IOs do you think people need for their builds?). Generally speaking, marketeers converting and selling this way put their bids up for below the purchases on the last 5 sales. There's no point in going higher.

 

The people actually taking the time to study the trends and manipulate the market by buying an item at a low cost and selling it at higher, I could probably count on one hand. Heck, I think I could name them both. I wouldn't want to be doing that myself.

 

With all that in mind, it's demand - buyers - that controls the market way more than sellers. The following hypothetical behaviour will raise prices: I have many alts at lvl 1, I powerlevel them all every day over a month, and I outfit them all with the most desirable IOs by making high bids to ensure that I get them asap without waiting, using new inf generated from farming. I also vendor all my drops, so I'm not adding to the market supply. If a lot of people behave that way, competing with each other for those higher bids, the prices will go up. It doesn't even matter if the actual supply is at a lower cost if people are outbidding the last five sales in order to get their products asap, and obviously sellers will follow those heightening bids. The more influence people with that behaviour can generate, the larger the rift between farmers' income and other content players' income becomes. The inflated influence is in the circulation of a certain subsect of players. That's where we got to on live.

[Gremlin]

20 minutes ago, Digirium said:

Farmers do not and never have set the prices on the market.

Nobody really "sets" prices at all. Prices are the average result of the behaviour of the whole community.

 

Those players who sell lots of recipes drive the prices of the recipes down. Farmers and other people who don't wish to craft do this a lot. People who buy IOs at the going rate drive the price of the IOs up. The more inf they have the higher the prices go. Farmers and other people who don't wish to craft do this a lot. People who craft IOs and/or convert them drive up the prices of recipes and drive down the prices of IOs. Marketeers and other people who like crafting do this a lot. Most people do a mix of all of these things depending on personal taste and whatever they feel like doing right now.

 

To resort to stereotypes, farmers feed recipes into the market which drive inflation down, they create lots of inf which drives inflation up. Marketeers convert unwanted recipes into desirable IOs which makes farmers better off by making recipes more valuable and IOs cheaper.

 

So, everybody and nobody sets prices.

 

The devs have make it clear that they understand all this and they made this change explicitly to curb inflation by shifting the ratio of new recipes to new inf. They've also made it abundantly clear that they support all play styles.

 

(I know this has been said a dozen times. I'm just recapping for those who haven't read this rather epic thread.)

[Grouchybeast]

Just now, Lines said:

The people actually taking the time to study the trends and manipulate the market by buying an item at a low cost and selling it at higher, I could probably count on one hand. Heck, I think I could name them both. I wouldn't want to be doing that myself.

And even flipping doesn't raise the overall price of an IO.

 

Flippers want volume, because that's how to make inf by flipping.  Flippers have to buy at above the current bottom-of-the-barrel selling price (because they want to be able to actually buy reasonable amounts of stock), and list at below the typical high selling price (because they want to be able to sell that stock again).  The gap between those prices, less 10%, is the flipper's profit margin.

 

When a flipper finds a new niche, that gap might be quite large.  But the next flippers who spots the same niche will pick a slightly higher buying price (so they can buy stock) and a slightly lower listing price (so their stock will sell first).  As more flippers start working the same niche, the lowest selling price creeps up, and the highest selling price creeps down.  Eventually the profit margin vanishes, and the flippers leave.

 

All flipping does is increase liquidity, and narrow the spread of prices.  As you rightly say, it's a pretty negligible force in the AH, especially now in this age of converter roulette.

[EmmySky]

Lately I have been running several baby toons through to maybe 25 or 30ish without passing them cash.  Every single one of them, using 2xp so no inf just drop sales, has been able to afford their own Reveal (must have!!) by about lvl 3 and the standard health and stamina procs along with 25 common IOs by 22.  

 

Granted, I don't do a lot of high end build stuff, most of my 50s are slotted with common IOs and a few procs.  If I didn't sell all my crap on AH at 100 I could certainly increase my profits and afford those shiney fancy sets (if I understood bonus'). 

 

Some people hate farming.  Some people hate marketing.  Some people hate (certain) story arcs.  That's fine!  But don't choose to hate farmers or marketeers or story runners.  Everyone has the ability to play whichever way they enjoy.  

 

Lashing out at each other just serves to divide a small community.  The changes to inf earning while exemped are miniscule, anyone saying otherwise clearly hasn't kept very good track.  I havent even tried using reward merits to make inf and my baby heroes still have more than they need.  

 

Anyway, I just hate seeing people blow something so trivial all out of proportion and then turn the blame and hate on others.  Be responsible for your own actions and reactions and try to stay civil.  It is a GAME.  It will be alright.  

[golstat2003]

11 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

And even flipping doesn't raise the overall price of an IO.

 

Flippers want volume, because that's how to make inf by flipping.  Flippers have to buy at above the current bottom-of-the-barrel selling price (because they want to be able to actually buy reasonable amounts of stock), and list at below the typical high selling price (because they want to be able to sell that stock again).  The gap between those prices, less 10%, is the flipper's profit margin.

 

When a flipper finds a new niche, that gap might be quite large.  But the next flippers who spots the same niche will pick a slightly higher buying price (so they can buy stock) and a slightly lower listing price (so their stock will sell first).  As more flippers start working the same niche, the lowest selling price creeps up, and the highest selling price creeps down.  Eventually the profit margin vanishes, and the flippers leave.

 

All flipping does is increase liquidity, and narrow the spread of prices.  As you rightly say, it's a pretty negligible force in the AH, especially now in this age of converter roulette.

It's clear reading up to this point that many folks don't actually know how the market (And I include converters and that process in that) works, and continue to not want to learn . . . even though there is an entire forum that's dedicated to telling exactly how to make billions on the market and EXACTLY how it does work.

 

You can't help folks who choose to remain uninformed.

Edited April 20, 2020 by golstat2003