Energy Melee - Does not need

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

Energy melee use to hit like a train and doesn't anymore?

 

>_>;

Still hits like a train that takes 2 hours to get moving though.  lol

[ScarySai]

Who do I have to lobby to get a special animation for missing ET? Where your character punches themself in the face.

[Vanden]

19 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Who do I have to lobby to get a special animation for missing ET? Where your character punches themself in the face.

But missing's, like, the only way that ET wouldn't hurt the character.

[ScarySai]

You'd at least fall on your face throwing that much power and whiffing it, carrying all that momentum.

Edited September 21, 2020 by ScarySai

[Mystic_Cross]

10 hours ago, Troo said:

This is great and appreciate your take even if we disagree.

One thing you may be failing to take into account: Energy Melee was formerly an excellent top tier power set.

 

Thank you.

 

and you're right. Energy Melee was formerly considered an excellent top tier power set... truth be told, I remember now that it's part of the reason I stopped playing my Invul/EM after about the first 45 minutes and let it collect dust for nearly 2 years while I levelled a Grav/Kin troller, Elec/Elec Blapper and Energy/Kin Corr to 50, along with a healthy stable of other non-top-tier alts that I was determined to make amazing despite "popular opinions". In fact, the whole reason I picked my Invul/Em tank back up and started playing it again was due to hearing about the EM changes and how much it sucked at the time. Along with how Invuln was looked down on before it's rework, the pairing was really a match made in heaven for me. It became one of my most played alts from the time after the EM nerf until sunset. Funny I had almost completely forgotten about all that.

 

So yea, it's entirely possible I'm not taking it fully into account.

 

Then again, formerly is still an important distinction. Formerly was before lots of new power sets were added. It was before a plethora of changes that would be far too exhausting to list. It was before IOs and Incarnates and double-stacked Rage. It was before the game officially shut down. It was before the game was resurrected with code that has been either rebuilt or built from scratch. Formerly was nearly 12 years ago... a lot has changed since EMs heyday, to put it mildly.

 

The thing is, to me current EM feels like a sloth. The entire set, not just one or two powers. Maybe spending nearly 8 years playing faster paced games while CoH was in oblivion has colored my outlook, I don't know, but the slow feeling has really been getting to me lately. I'm sure the long animation times of both ET and TF aren't helping matters, and I have no doubt that fixing both of those will alleviate some of the issue, I'm just not convinced that it will completely fix it.

 

Still, I'm far from against reverting the nerf and returning EM to the same state it was in the "glory days". Throw it on beta for a week or so and lets see if it lives up to the hype. My preconception is that the rest of the set will still feel sluggish, slow and underperforming... only worth using as filler fodder until the next ET is available in 6 seconds... but I'm willing to be proven wrong and see how it feels for myself. After all, seeing for myself whether a set is good or bad is practically the only thing I did for 6 years on live. That... and making alts, costumes and builds, with the occasional story arc/tf/itrial sprinkled here and there.

 

As an aside, I was recently messing around with a Shield/Em tank on the beta server. The increased damage across the board and the 2nd AoE really made EM feel like less of a slog, and I found myself thinking that it was actually pretty close to my ideal of how I'd like EM to end up.

[Mystic_Cross]

11 hours ago, Super Atom said:

A  part of the set under-preforming isn't about the ST damage in the first place. Your ST output with activation time removed on EM doesn't change a whole lot at the end of the day. The utility part of the set is the main problem. Whirling hands is god awful and stun doesn't do anything worth while. So the set even if changed would literally be Energy Transfer > Total Focus and everything else sucks. EM's utility is stun and it only works on one guy which in a team centric game and even solo play is pretty underwhelming. So if you just reverted ET you'd still have issues with your utility under preforming and your AoE also being bad. 2 bads and 1 good is still bad.

 

A good example is probably Electric Melee. It does AoE amazingly and does -end pretty ok. Even though -end is a widely debated debuff, it still does it pretty well. It's ST isn't the strongest but it's still ok. So you have AoE Amazing / Utility good / ST good.

I disagree that the utility part of the set is the main problem, but there is a problem with the utility part of EM... it's that it can't reliably be controlled, directed or intentionally stacked beyond a single target, and oftentimes that target is required to be boss level or higher in order to make it semi-reliable.

 

Whirling Hands isn't exactly god awful, but it's worse off than it should be. It's supposed to have similar damage to Spin from the Claws powerset but it's a bit lower. The radius is nice on Tanks though, and it's the single best power in the set for making use of EMs utility.  You don't skip it, do you? it sounds like you skip it... 

 

Electric Melee huh? I like it better on Blasters, but I guess it's OK on Stalkers too. It's no Energy Melee though.

[Super Atom]

26 minutes ago, Mystic_Cross said:

I disagree that the utility part of the set is the main problem, but there is a problem with the utility part of EM... it's that it can't reliably be controlled, directed or intentionally stacked beyond a single target, and oftentimes that target is required to be boss level or higher in order to make it semi-reliable.

 

Whirling Hands isn't exactly god awful, but it's worse off than it should be. It's supposed to have similar damage to Spin from the Claws powerset but it's a bit lower. The radius is nice on Tanks though, and it's the single best power in the set for making use of EMs utility.  You don't skip it, do you? it sounds like you skip it... 

 

Electric Melee huh? I like it better on Blasters, but I guess it's OK on Stalkers too. It's no Energy Melee though.

Calling it the -main- problem was probably  a stretch, but it's apart of the main problem.

 

Whirling hands is not skipped no. (I skip stun) and im offended you would suggest such sir. GOOD DAY. jk

 

Electric Melee doesn't come close to EM's ST ability nor should it. What it absolutely demolishes it in, is it's ability to do disorient (EM's primary utility) AoE, with the added benefit of ST not being too shabby. It also does -end +end sleep knockback/up. Electric Melee trades strong ST for superior everything else while also having good ST. That is the reason i think a fault of EM is utility and aoe.

 

The same set of comparisons can be done with Rad Melee and Kinetic melee. (We use these three because they also do energy damage. One big energy family)

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[Mystic_Cross]

I'm pretty sure that EleMs powers mainly apply Sleep, not Disorient, and those have a %chance to apply that's very similar to EM. Only Thunderstrike actually provides Disorient in the attack, and it's only half the duration of EMs Total Focus disorient. Of course EleM gets Thunder Clap (Lightning Clap?) as an AoE mag 2 disorient with a decent radius and a chance for +1 mag. I'm pretty sure it doesn't necessarily do disorient better, so much as you have more control over when it happens... which in turn makes it "feel" like it's better. 

 

If EM got say, Stun turned into an AoE disorient, even with a smaller radius than Lightning Clap I'd bet you would see a pretty big change in that performance ratio. Currenty I also skip Stun, and Energy Punch.

 

Edit to add: I'm glad you don't skip Whirling Hands. Nobody should skip WH lol. 😉

Edited September 21, 2020 by Mystic_Cross

[Super Atom]

4 minutes ago, Mystic_Cross said:

I'm pretty sure that EleMs powers mainly apply Sleep, not Disorient, and those have a %chance to apply that's very similar to EM. Only Thunderstrike actually provides Disorient in the attack, and it's only half the duration of EMs Total Focus disorient. Of course EleM gets Thunder Clap (Lightning Clap?) as an AoE mag 2 disorient with a decent radius and a chance for +1 mag. I'm pretty sure it doesn't necessarily do disorient better, so much as you have more control over when it happens... which in turn makes it "feel" like it's better. 

 

If EM got say, Stun turned into an AoE disorient, even with a smaller radius than Lightning Clap I'd bet you would see a pretty big change in that performance ratio. Currenty I also skip Stun, and Energy Punch.

Depends on the AT but the disorient on lightning clap is pretty intense and out paces all of EM by itself due to IO's. edit: For clarification i mean due to IO sets, it's recharge/stun mag/accuracy is really high and reliably stuns a lot of foes immediately around you.

 

I agree honestly, I could live -without- an ET animation revert and just Stun being AoE and whirling getting an increase to not be dog. However, I think EF is more fun and would like to see it more 🙂

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[Clave Dark 5]

On 9/19/2020 at 1:14 PM, Troo said:

I'm not trying to be difficult.

It just seems to me that something is being pushed that a good number of people don't want.

 

In response proponents of a rework are trying to negotiate a "see it does both what you and what we want" which under examination just isn't true.

 

While it may not be "if a player does x, y, z perfectly they'll get what they want from time to time" it doesn't sound like it will work as intended or as it currently does. We're talking a completely different third option. Even if it is AWESOME something that diverges greatly should just be a new set. Folks have characters and builds already using the power set. Folks have been hoping a quick reversion might be possible.

 

Revert Energy Transfer..

..and then if there are other tweaks that work on top of that without being an over correction. That might be palatable. 

 

Holding any improvement to Energy Transfer hostage when the solution is quick and simple is just not cool.

 

That's kind of how this discussion seems to be going to me as well.  I mean, is there a reason not to just revert and call that good?  Maybe I'm forgetting something, because I haven't played ET since the change back in the day (my then-main was an ET stalker, and he didn't get much play after the change).

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Mystic_Cross said:

It's supposed to have similar damage to Spin from the Claws powerset but it's a bit lower

I don't think that's true. Spin isn't even supposed to do damage similar to Spin. Even if you factor in the 20% recharge reduction most claws attacks get, Spin outperforms the design formula by a considerable amount.

[Golden Azrael]

5 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Energy melee use to hit like a train and doesn't anymore?

 

>_>;

That made sense to me.  I saw the connection straight away.

 

Plus the train going over the edge is a great storytelling 'gimmick.'

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

Energy  Melee is literally: "Punch"... and sometimes "Whirl".

Pretty dull as ditchwater hard going, I found until I got ET.  The only showy power other than Whirling Mediocrity.). At least ET still kicks like a mule and looks good whilst doing it.

 

'Dush (Energy Punch)...((Wait.)) dush dush...(Barrage) (Wait.) dush...(Wait) WHHHHHR...dush dush....dush DUSH (Bone Smasher)...(Wait.)

 

Tsssh (Stun)...WHUUUUUURRRR-BOOOOM (ET.)

 

ET has the self drain health 'gimmick.'

 

Reverting Energy back to pre-nerf.  A bit like throwing away the IOs and going back to pre-issue 4.  As in.  Not going to happen.  It's a backward step.

 

HC are more progressive and forward thinking.

 

The snipe for blasters is a good example of adding to a set for an AT that was drowning. As was the self love self buff.

 

Addressing the Tank AT was only the 1st step.  Each Melee Tank class will get a look.

 

HC seem more likely to do something in the spirit of what the developers on live had intended.  That involves some fixing.  Not sure it means going backwards.  There are more creative ways to solve Energy's problems that to undo the nerf the original devs applied.  Energy Transfer was quicker.  But it was pretty dull as was.  As was the rest of the set bar the 'showy' Whirling Hands.

 

Energy just needs a 'make it more so.'  And a bit of imagination and excitement to things.  Sloth.  Sluggish.  Slow to get going.  

 

Like an old steam train.

 

Azrael.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Infinitum]

Page 6 EM Details and Breakdown

 

You heard it here first.  I think it fits if you really listen to it.  :-)

[Golden Azrael]

The disorient 2ndaries of Energy could also do with an uplift.  

 

Nice when they happen.  Maybe they don't happen quite often enough...?

 

Bring back the 'Big Mag.'

 

Azrael.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[BrandX]

Speed up animations of the longest two attacks.  Give us some alternate animations to go with them.  Make Barrage more awesome, as it has the awesome animation!

 

Need no more!

[Super Atom]

Like it or not, being only good at Single Target isn't a viable strategy for modern City of Heroes. AoE is front and center and a large part of the game. If the set has no AoE strength whatsoever it's going to under preform.

 

Only reverting ET -will not fix the issue- of whirling hands and stun being bad.

 

If you want to argue they should revert ET and increase whirling hands damage to supplement it's lack of additional cones/aoe then sure but just blindly going "muh pre-nerf EMs" Isn't gonna fix anything. It's also not -for me- it's for everyone because spoilers, even if you enjoy it and like it as is you'll still be under preforming compared to the other sets.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Super Atom

[Tsuko]

On 5/17/2020 at 6:59 PM, Troo said:

Energy Melee - Does not need more multi-target attacks (Aura, Cones, AoE, etc).

Energy Melee - Does not need a combo system or mechanic.

Energy Melee - Does not need to be re-envisioned.

 

A single target AT on SOs that can put out the same amount of damage as a proc'd out incarnate, also not needed.

 

I am getting a little nervous about the 'update' turning into changes or more.

 

My ask has always been singular: Revert the Energy Transfer nerf. Simple and quick.

i m 99% sure they will throw a bad cone and some "not enough/not needed" buff to the actual ET about losing health or not.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Tsuko

[0th Power]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Page 6 EM Details and Breakdown

 

You heard it here first.  I think it fits if you really listen to it.  🙂

I hate you 

[Brutal Justice]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

Speed up animations of the longest two attacks.  Give us some alternate animations to go with them.  Make Barrage more awesome, as it has the awesome animation!

 

Need no more!

Hack Barrage!

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Like it or not, being only good at Single Target isn't a viable strategy for modern City of Heroes. AoE is front and center and a large part of the game. If the set has no AoE strength whatsoever it's going to under preform.

 

Only reverting ET -will not fix the issue- of whirling hands and stun being bad.

 

If you want to argue they should revert ET and increase whirling hands damage to supplement it's lack of additional cones/aoe then sure but just blindly going "muh pre-nerf EMs" Isn't gonna fix anything. It's also not -for me- it's for everyone because spoilers, even if you enjoy it and like it as is you'll still be under preforming compared to the other sets.

 

Being good at Single Target is a viable strategy, it just wouldn't make the set popular with people who focus on AOE.

 

From what I've seen, the one's who want to increase it's AOE want an AOE set with pom poms, because they like the energy melee/pom pom aspect of the set, but nothing else.

 

Personally, I like the idea of it being the #1 ST DPS and never had a problem with it's Whirling Hands AOE.

 

In the end, giving it to scrappers is the most important aspect imo.

[Super Atom]

24 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Being good at Single Target is a viable strategy, it just wouldn't make the set popular with people who focus on AOE.

From what I've seen, the one's who want to increase it's AOE want an AOE set with pom poms, because they like the energy melee/pom pom aspect of the set, but nothing else.

Personally, I like the idea of it being the #1 ST DPS and never had a problem with it's Whirling Hands AOE.

In the end, giving it to scrappers is the most important aspect imo.

I don't think you're quite understanding. It's not about anyone wanting anything, the way the game has gone AOE has become priority and sets that didn't quite do it well fell behind. EM has some of the worst AOE of any melee set which is why the general urge is to increase whirling hands / make stun cone. It has -nothing- to do with personal feelings or opinion. It's entirely numbers based. The mechanic thing is opinion based. ET being reverted is also relatively opinion based but most people agree it'd be better off with the old animation which was changed for PVP reasons in the first place.

 

That's why the "only reverting the animation won't fix the problem" is important, because just increasing your general DPS in ST isn't going to fix the numerical disadvantage EM is facing in current CoH.

 

Also before its even said; This isn't about making EM OP or anything. Nobody is saying make whirling hands an aoe TF. It's not even really that -big- of an increase in damage either.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Super Atom

[Taboo]

Spoiler

27 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I don't think you're quite understanding. It's not about anyone wanting anything, the way the game has gone AOE has become priority and sets that didn't quite do it well fell behind. EM has some of the worst AOE of any melee set which is why the general urge is to increase whirling hands / make stun cone. It has -nothing- to do with personal feelings or opinion. It's entirely numbers based. The mechanic thing is opinion based. ET being reverted is also relatively opinion based but most people agree it'd be better off with the old animation which was changed for PVP reasons in the first place.

 

That's why the "only reverting the animation won't fix the problem" is important, because just increasing your general DPS in ST isn't going to fix the numerical disadvantage EM is facing in current CoH.

 

Also before its even said; This isn't about making EM OP or anything. Nobody is saying make whirling hands an aoe TF. It's not even really that -big- of an increase in damage either.

Wrong. At best, opinion.

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Taboo

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, Taboo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Wrong. At best opinion.

 

edit: Actually don't

 

If you don't know enough to know about the aoe meta then it's not really even a discussion in the first place. You've stated your opinion and thats good enough.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Super Atom

[BrandX]

21 hours ago, Bopper said:

I don't think that's true. Spin isn't even supposed to do damage similar to Spin. Even if you factor in the 20% recharge reduction most claws attacks get, Spin outperforms the design formula by a considerable amount.

While they had a formula, wasn't their idea, to also not be tied to that formula?

 

We hear that a lot.  "Oh, this power over does this formula" but I recall that being a guideline more than a set in stone rule.  Not to mention, the secondary effects would then have to weigh in on it.  Why would something with a better secondary effect not do less damage than the one with a better secondary effect?