So when people say they solo at +4/×8...

[leeowensoas]

I frequently see people talking about running at max difficulty on their scrappers, and I gotta ask, when you say your character plays at +4/×8 does that mean all the time? Against any enemy group? Or does that mean you CAN run 4/8 against, say... Council, but would turn down the difficulty against Malta for instance. This question is not being asked with any kind of judgment, or to suggest people are being facetious in their claims, I just want a realistic perception of what my character should be capable of. I have been playing my purpled out WM/SD scrapper (only t3 alpha so far, no other incarnates, but an absolute top of the line build) at 2/8, and yeah, against Council I could probably fight +4, even some harder enemy groups I might be able to get through by the seat of my pants, but then I walk into an Arachnos mission for instance and +2 I have to be way on my toes to not just get toasted. I guess in my head when I hear people say "I run +4/×8" in my head that means "I can blindly walk into any mission I'm assigned (non-incarnate) and not worry about changing my difficulty settings." Is that true? Or am I expecting too much from a Shield Defense scrapper?

[Werner]

I can only speak for myself, and these aren't Scrappers, but at least on my Katana/Dark Brute and Dark Melee/Super Reflexes Brute, it basically means what you said. Amended and clarified a bit to "I can blindly walk into any mission I'm assigned, incarnate or not, and not worry about changing my difficulty settings or taking inspirations, with an exception for the AVs vs. EBs setting, as there are a number of AVs I can't handle solo at level 54 on my Katana/Dark, and my DM/SR doesn't currently have the DPS for them." 

 

Some enemy groups are absolutely much harder than others. Some are walk off and make a sandwich easy. Others are nasty as hell. Some will require pulling. Some will kill me now and then. But I usually only turn the difficulty down if I'm doing something like speed running the first Dark Astoria arc for salvage, or if I know I can't handle the AV at the end of an arc, or if I'm bringing lowbies along with me, since +5 to them is just too painful, so I switch to +3 so they fight +3 and +4. Basically, I get my variety of difficulty based on which groups I'm fighting rather than by changing my settings.

 

I have less experience on my DM/SR, so for specifics I'll mostly talk my Katana/Dark. Carnies were doable with occasional deaths prior to my most recent respec, but are now an exercise in frustration until I pick up T4 Ageless Radial, which testing on beta shows will address the problems I added to the build in the name of L54 AV DPS. Longbow are tough with pulling and the occasional death. Incarnate Banished Pantheon are tough but doable diving in, with only very rare deaths. The rest of the Dark Astoria incarnate enemies are fairly simple. Malta are no problem. Arachnos I've somehow, and not intentionally, never solo'd on him. I anticipate them being a little easier than Longbow - tough, but doable - but I don't know. There may be other enemy groups I haven't fought that will be tough, ah, like I skip over the breaking Malta out of prison part in Dark Astoria. What is it, PPD? I suspect they'd be painful.

 

I'm sure some other people mean something like I do about running +4x8. I'm sure some people mean something different, like only certain groups, or a majority of groups, and with liberal use of inspirations and temporary powers. I think it's one of those things that just means different things to different people, and so "I run +4x8 solo" tells you something, but without more context doesn't tell you a whole lot.

 

A War Mace/Shield Defense Scrapper is an amazing little beast, but you might be expecting too much from what I consider to be a damage-oriented rather than survival-oriented combination, particularly if you also build to emphasize the damage output. I haven't started one, but I've been fiddling with damage-oriented incarnate builds and DPS testing on beta, and with costumes. I've not tried regular enemy groups, just pylons so far, but I don't expect to be able to play +4x8 almost all the time like I do with my Brutes. I expect to be learning what I can and can't handle, and where I need my settings.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Werner

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, leeowensoas said:

I frequently see people talking about running at max difficulty on their scrappers, and I gotta ask, when you say your character plays at +4/×8 does that mean all the time? Against any enemy group? Or does that mean you CAN run 4/8 against, say... Council, but would turn down the difficulty against Malta for instance. This question is not being asked with any kind of judgment, or to suggest people are being facetious in their claims, I just want a realistic perception of what my character should be capable of. I have been playing my purpled out WM/SD scrapper (only t3 alpha so far, no other incarnates, but an absolute top of the line build) at 2/8, and yeah, against Council I could probably fight +4, even some harder enemy groups I might be able to get through by the seat of my pants, but then I walk into an Arachnos mission for instance and +2 I have to be way on my toes to not just get toasted. I guess in my head when I hear people say "I run +4/×8" in my head that means "I can blindly walk into any mission I'm assigned (non-incarnate) and not worry about changing my difficulty settings." Is that true? Or am I expecting too much from a Shield Defense scrapper?

Always and all the time. From the moment Musculature reaches T3 my difficulty slider never again budges.

 

Edit: Except if exemplaring and starting a TF. Then of course not, poor lowbies I might be playing with.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Sovera

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Werner said:

"I can blindly walk into any mission I'm assigned, incarnate or not, and not worry about changing my difficulty settings or taking inspirations, with an exception for the AVs vs. EBs setting, as there are a number of AVs I can't handle solo at level 54 on my Katana/Dark, and my DM/SR doesn't currently have the DPS for them." 

This is how I judge my characters. If they can't do this, then they aren't good enough. They might be fun, they might be relegated to "team only," I might still like and play them for a variety of other reasons but they will remain not good enough for normal play.

 

Normal play is max diff against everything. Edit: Forgot to mention that this is as true for my claws/sr scrapper main as it is for my claws/sr brute or sr/claws tank.

 

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Edit: Except if exemplaring and starting a TF. Then of course not, poor lowbies I might be playing with.

Always a good rule but at that point we're not soloing so thinking of the welfare of others is always a good thing.

Although staying at max diff with fair warning also works. 🙂

Edited May 30, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Krazie Ivan]

i make builds, but not claims. ;D

when someone solo's incredibly well, i applaud them... tho not a fan of solo'g, myself. love recognizing when peeps on my team tackle content their AT/Sets normally should struggle against. that nod they get, but can't see, is still golden imo. they know things, and they've built a char to take advantage of those things. of the many reasons i don't share builds anymore, is that each person's own understanding/knowledge of the game will differ, so an approach for me doesn't mean everyone else will survive the same content on the same exact char.

anyway... generally, my builds will be as well-rounded to all mobs as reasonably possible, so i can join friends on anything and pull my weight if we're split to clear faster. but there's a rush when polishing off a build & knowing the hard numbers are insanely good compared to all others, which is my own version of the rush i suspect others get by making it through some rough +4x8 content all by themselves.

[Troo]

@leeowensoas some can, others by the seat of their pants, most can't. Experience at pushing the envelope is a big factor. I don't solo +4/8 except specific enemy types and particular missions/arcs.

 

Of those that can +4/8 level 50 content, fewer are doing lower level content that way. That said there are some truly exceptional players.

 

Can you? Absolutely with the right build and practice, yes.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Troo

[Coyote]

I think there's also a difference between CAN, and DO. I have an Illusion/Storm who goes at +4/x5 and doesn't drop it for AVs... but I really don't want to raise it to x8. Doing "kill all" missions without a good amount of AoE? I don't worry so much about being defeated as about getting bored when I have to fight for SO LONG to clear a map. I'm raising a Psy/DA Stalker... it also probably doesn't have the AoE to make it worthwhile even if it can probably end up doing it. On the other hand, a TW/Regen Brute only has to worry about survival, since he's packed with AoEs. The Plant/Savage Dom has no problems with it, but runs at +3 since AVs at +4 are pushing the edge of the envelope. It's not only about capability, but also about how comfortable is it to play the character at that difficulty level.

[Olly]

For me it means I can at least try if I want to, on my scrapper. But unless I'm doing it for a specific challenge, I don't run +4/x8 as it just takes too long. This isn't the same as for my blaster, though. I took on Bill Z Bubba's blaster challenge, and while I finished a radio +3/x8 carnies no problem, it was a thoughtful affair as compare to doing that same mish with my scrap. 

[tidge]

17 hours ago, Sovera said:

Always and all the time. From the moment Musculature reaches T3 my difficulty slider never again budges.

 

Edit: Except if exemplaring and starting a TF. Then of course not, poor lowbies I might be playing with.

I find that exemplaring low enough (KR Skulls arc, Posi 1) can cause significant trouble for a solo player against large numbers of enemies. Purples, Winters, and ATOs of course scale down, but losing attack powers and any set bonuses (many which lick in at lvl 17, or lvl 22). If playing as part of a balanced team, a large number of enemies is less of a problem.

 

I enjoy throwing my characters against large numbers of enemies pell-mell, but more than once I've earned some debt as my reward (Rularuu!)

[Werner]

41 minutes ago, tidge said:

I enjoy throwing my characters against large numbers of enemies pell-mell, but more than once I've earned some debt as my reward (Rularuu!)

Oh, right, Rularuu! I must experiment. I remember using an attack sequence macro for at least one group, but otherwise being OK on my old Katana/Dark Scrapper in the old game. I kind of remember Shadow Shard grinding for fun and profit. I’ll find some Arachnos to try as well.

[Haijinx]

Rularuuus are pretty awesome.  And 54x8 is tough with those for sure.

 

Is there anything non incarnate tougher than those? 

[hejtmane]

For me what it meant when I was playing on live I could set my mission at  +4/x8 and solo most of the content  and never worry about that setting; and that was before incarnates.  Much like Werner said some groups just give you fits and slow you down and some AV's are just your kryptonite and have to be fought as EB's.  Then add in inspiration makes it easier and incarnates make it even easier. Now; I do modify the settings depending on my goal if I am just clearing something for speed or farming I change the settings for efficiency but generally once I get my IO's maxed to a point I can just set +4/x8 and not blink most the time.

 

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Rularuuus are pretty awesome.  And 54x8 is tough with those for sure.

 

Is there anything non incarnate tougher than those? 

Devouring Earth maybe? I just got a Devouring Earth mission, and I was like, "Oh! I forgot about them. They're nasty. Can't brute force them. Gotta play smart. Probably going to die. Yay!" Then I got in the mission and they were level 38. Wut? Ah, well. I'm sure I'll hit them again soon enough. Well, huh. I took Elude as a set mule on my DM/SR Brute. Maybe I could actually use it here to brute force a couple spawns, crash and wait a couple minutes? Is 114% defense enough? Might be faster than repeatedly kiting them off of their buffs while whittling them down.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Werner said:

Devouring Earth maybe? I just got a Devouring Earth mission, and I was like, "Oh! I forgot about them. They're nasty. Can't brute force them. Gotta play smart. Probably going to die. Yay!" Then I got in the mission and they were level 38. Wut? Ah, well. I'm sure I'll hit them again soon enough. Well, huh. I took Elude as a set mule on my DM/SR Brute. Maybe I could actually use it here to brute force a couple spawns, crash and wait a couple minutes? Is 114% defense enough? Might be faster than repeatedly kiting them off of their buffs while whittling them down.

Don't think I've ever fought them at 54 

 

Mainly they are a Numina Task Force thing and people usually run those +0

 

 

[MunkiLord]

I'll push my higher end builds at +4x8 against groups like Carnies and Malta just to see if I can do it. But it's not my default for those groups simply because it will generally take too long. Carnies at max difficulty is my end goal for my Dark/Earth Dom, but not quite there yet. I can do +2/x8 consistently, so at this point I just need to adjust my tactics a little bit and/or squeeze a little bit more out of my build. 

[hejtmane]

16 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I'll push my higher end builds at +4x8 against groups like Carnies and Malta just to see if I can do it. But it's not my default for those groups simply because it will generally take too long. Carnies at max difficulty is my end goal for my Dark/Earth Dom, but not quite there yet. I can do +2/x8 consistently, so at this point I just need to adjust my tactics a little bit and/or squeeze a little bit more out of my build. 

My maxed out into incarnte build is my dm/sd and carnies are a chore and Circle of thorns can be a chore with those earthquake mages gerr. ON Devouring Earth the crystal ones can get you chewed down with debuffs and the stone one make everything hard to kill. The Crystal is the most dangerous

[Yomo Kimyata]

Melee at 50?  +4/x8 except maybe some stalkers.  By 50 the only non-TF content I still run is against Carnies and Malta.

 

Ranged and support will generally be +4/x3-8.

 

I usually start at +1/x3 for melee characters, then up the difficulty when I can. 

[Sovera]

I just come from running tips with a friend set +3x8 and bloody hell, damn Carnies. SO SLOW! And I actually had to kite a few times and eat insps because they debuffed so bad. But the slowness, intolerably. They were an underslotted dom between us it was like watching paint dry trying to whittle the illusionists between phase shifts.

[ClawsandEffect]

My softcapped Street Justice/Bio scrapper CAN solo +4/x8, but I typically run at +2/x8. 

 

I built him for survivability rather than raw DPS, so while he is capable of soloing at max difficulty I usually don't do it because a defeat all mission takes a long time with such a single target focused set. 

[Zeraphia]

I think there really is another element that should be said that's sort of off-topic to this idea...

 

Sometimes it's not about "can this toon handle max difficulty against every enemy group?" but instead...

 

Can I absolutely demolish this garbage in .2 seconds and move on and feel like an obscene speedster?

 

For example, my Rad/TW Tanker can ABSOLUTELY handle just about every +4 group with laughable ease, and will nuke the group, while not compromising at anything. However, because it is TW, it can mean some missions could be "longer" because of the herding/arcing, and it can be draining to play it optimally at times. However...

My Fire/Fire Blaster (main) will absolutely demolish just about every group in 3 seconds with inferno, will have FSC + Fire Ball + Burn to neuter anything in sheer seconds, and can solo a nasty AV at range, all without having to deal without any annoying mechanics. What she does versus my Tanker is that she can blitz through anything in a fraction of the time that anything else will, and even though is a Blaster can survive just enough to kill before the enemy kills me. 

 

Put it this way: you may be able to survive a group at +4, but if it takes you triple or quadruple the time it would've taken another combination to survive fine enough at +2, I do not consider the former very impressive and I consider the latter much more impressive/worthwhile overall. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Zeraphia

[ShardWarrior]

On 5/31/2020 at 7:32 AM, Olly said:

For me it means I can at least try if I want to, on my scrapper. But unless I'm doing it for a specific challenge, I don't run +4/x8 as it just takes too long.

Same for me as well.  I recently finished my main (Street Justice/Nin scrapper) and she can handle anything the game has at +4x8.  However, as @Olly says, I do not run it all the time as it takes too long and becomes a chore after a while.

[Heraclea]

All of my level 50 tankers can do this pretty much anywhere at level 50 content.  Most of my brutes and scrappers can also; it took some doing to get the Regen brute there, but that was the point of the experiment.  My regen scrapper can't; her build is focused on 35 and under content,  though she actually does fairly well when Rularuu are the weekly. 

 

But I don't outside of tailored AE content.  It just gets boring, taking forever to kill the several bosses in each spawn.  I prefer to run story arcs for their ending rewards, and running them at +4/8 just slows me down.  While I generally could run them at that level, I wouldn't bother doing it on, say, Dark Astoria Tsoo missions.  I grind Ephraim Sha at +0/1; the point there is to finish them fast. 

[tidge]

19 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

I think there really is another element that should be said that's sort of off-topic to this idea...

 

Put it this way: you may be able to survive a group at +4, but if it takes you triple or quadruple the time it would've taken another combination to survive fine enough at +2, I do not consider the former very impressive and I consider the latter much more impressive/worthwhile overall. 

 

8 hours ago, Heraclea said:

But I don't outside of tailored AE content.  It just gets boring, taking forever to kill the several bosses in each spawn.  I prefer to run story arcs for their ending rewards, and running them at +4/8 just slows me down. 

This is where my head-space landed a long time ago (on Homecoming). It is interesting to test builds against EXTREME CONTENT, but I find those challenges to be a grinding chore, especially solo.

[oldskool]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

This is where my head-space landed a long time ago (on Homecoming). It is interesting to test builds against EXTREME CONTENT, but I find those challenges to be a grinding chore, especially solo.

Ditto.  

I tend to do my best to build my characters that can handle hard content solo, but I find that playing it that way to be a real drag.  Generally when I'm shooting to hit +4/x8 difficulties it is more about keeping up with teams.  If I can handle +4/x8 on my own, then there is very little a team can throw that I won't contribute something to.  At least that is how I try to rationalize my behavior. 

[Shred Monkey]

I have a tank that does +4x8 content without much fear and he can even do this exemplared down into the teens.  But wow is it slow.   I don't really play him.  EVER.  And I'm not sure I can really say he can beat *all* non-TF content at 54x8, because there are many AV's he'd fail to beat at +4.  He probably won't die, but has no prayer in overcoming their regen.  

 

On the other hand, I have some blasters that can solo level 54x8 content also.  (Can you believe, I still haven't built a scrapper to level 50 on homecoming?)  My blasters, however, have some caveats to the said 54x8 content.  Some enemies, they do absolutely walk though without any fear at all (Council, CoT).   Some enemies they have to employ a little strategic targeting of threats and using inspirations (Malta, BP, Cimoreans, Knives of Artemis).   And lastly, some enemies they have to do a lot of crazy stuff, popping inspirations, using terrain to kite and break spawns apart and slow incoming damage, and yes running back from the hospital (Arachnos, Longbow).  But my blasters also beat level 54 AVs.   

 

 (note, I put BP and KoA in the 2nd group, butit's worth noting that since they are in DA arcs, their 54x8 is only +1x8.)