Natural Origin isn't just for sword/SR scrappers

[ShardWarrior]

My namesake is an alien with a Natural origin.  Her species is inherently more durable and stronger than humans.  She is just born that way.  😁

[CaptainLupis]

Superman is just lucky he didn't crash land in Scotland, or he'd never have discovered he had any powers.

[Sovera]

In several comics they use mirrors to amplify how much sun he gets, so being hit by sunlight from different angles to increase exposure does seem related to how much surface he exposes.

 

And it's multiple times canon that if he gets closer to the sun he gets a big power-up (considering his speeds it's a small wonder he does not go take a sip of power-up juice when ever needed instead of it being a semi plot device) so proximity allows him to sip from his power source more so than he receives 'far' away on earth and under an atmosphere.

 

I now leave you nerds to talk it out 😄

[Haijinx]

I think at the time the idea started Solar Power wasn't very well understood.  Therefore they could get away with a lot. 

 

Now its just legacy dumbness.  Kind of like Green Lantern and the color Yellow. 

 

If Superman had come along a lot later they would have handwaved his power as coming from Zero Point Energy or something instead.  Which although equally ridiculous has the advantage of being much more cryptic.  

 

 

[MunkiLord]

On 7/28/2020 at 8:42 PM, Eva Destruction said:

It's right there in the character creator.

 

So, would a robot character be natural origin, if they use the powers they were built with?

That depends on if you consider the robot character a person or not and if that personhood is more important than the nuts and bolts. But then it gets more complicated when something like Number 5 comes along. Do we recognize this robot as a person with feelings or just a thing that is malfunctioning?

 

And what about Skynet or Agent Smith? Both deemed humans expendable, but since Agent Smith has a human name and a face do we consider that more of a person than the thing that sent Arnold back in time naked?

[Haijinx]

31 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

That depends on if you consider the robot character a person or not and if that personhood is more important than the nuts and bolts. But then it gets more complicated when something like Number 5 comes along. Do we recognize this robot as a person with feelings or just a thing that is malfunctioning?

 

And what about Skynet or Agent Smith? Both deemed humans expendable, but since Agent Smith has a human name and a face do we consider that more of a person than the thing that sent Arnold back in time naked?

Depends.. 

80's Arnold or Now Arnold?

 

Cause you gotta warn people .. 

[Eva Destruction]

29 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

That depends on if you consider the robot character a person or not and if that personhood is more important than the nuts and bolts. But then it gets more complicated when something like Number 5 comes along. Do we recognize this robot as a person with feelings or just a thing that is malfunctioning?

 

And what about Skynet or Agent Smith? Both deemed humans expendable, but since Agent Smith has a human name and a face do we consider that more of a person than the thing that sent Arnold back in time naked?

Agent Smith doesn't have a human face any more than Neo has a sweet trenchcoat.

 

What about Optimus Prime?  "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" undoubtedly includes himself.  And Star Trek established that Data is a person, so his superhuman strength would be a natural origin power.

[Luminara]

57 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think at the time the idea started Solar Power wasn't very well understood.  Therefore they could get away with a lot. 

 

Now its just legacy dumbness.  Kind of like Green Lantern and the color Yellow. 

 

If Superman had come along a lot later they would have handwaved his power as coming from Zero Point Energy or something instead.  Which although equally ridiculous has the advantage of being much more cryptic.  

 

 

 

The concept is still scientifically feasible, in theory.  Evolution has produced some remarkably bizarre results, such as the platypus.  Presuming Krypton was a heavy gravity world orbiting a aging star, therefore several billion years further along the evolutionary chain than our planet, and in conditions significantly more hostile than any known environment here, it wouldn't be unlikely for any existing life to have adapted to those conditions in a way which would appear to be extraordinary on an Earth-like planet with lower gravity and more favorable conditions.  Food, for instance, would be more difficult to acquire, as it would either have evolved better protection or would struggle in the harsh environment.  It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility, then, for animals to evolve a mechanism for harvesting energy directly from the most abundant source, the sun.

 

The age of the star also suggests that any intelligent life on that planet would have had, at a minimum, several tens of millions of years of further evolution and technological progress than we can lay claim to in the scant few million years our species has experienced.  What natural selection might fail to accomplish, science could, given that time frame.  Take our current DNA splicing and cloning abilities as an example.  Right now, we can give one species the abilities of other species, such as bioluminescence, or producing spider silk, by manipulating DNA.  We could, in fact, give an animal the ability to photosynthesize, today, but we can't make that animal's photosynthetic process actually provide any sustenance because we haven't finished unraveling the entire process in plants, or translated it to the anatomies of higher life forms.  But in a few decades...  Krypton would've had millions of years, so it's plausible that Kryptonians could have done that long ago, and on a world beset by high gravity and poor sunlight from a dying star, it would make sense to do so in order to aid the dominant species in survival, and even provide a level of comfort previously unobtainable.

 

So between some fiddling with Kryptonian DNA in a bygone era, and having been born on a heavy gravity planet, Superman's ability to utilize sunlight makes sense, from a scientific perspective.  His heavy-world origin would imply a denser cellular structure, thus accounting for his near invulnerability, and on a world with Earth-normal gravity, his strength would seem significantly greater than ours.  Retinal coating could be reflective in the IR spectrum, giving him heat vision, and specially adapted cones and rods could allow him to see in the X-ray spectrum (many animals can see into the UV and IR spectrums, neither of which we can accomplish without technology).  As his DNA would've been adapted to poor sunlight, a brighter star, such as Sol, would provide significantly more energy for his body.  One could hypothesize that this energy would be used at a cellular level, for repair and growth, and stored in much the same way our bodies store excess energy in the form of fat.

 

Flying... that one isn't scientifically explicable.  Neither is super breath.  Or super speed.  Or super knitting.  Or super baking.  Or super mind wiping with a kiss.  Those aren't abilities which would develop from evolving on a high gravity planet, or a planet orbiting an aging star, and they can't be gifted by DNA manipulation.  They defy the laws of physics, and unless Krypton was inside a black hole, it was still subject to those laws.  But his strength, invulnerability, use of solar energy, even pew-pew eye lasers and seeing womens' no-no bits through their clothes, those can be explained, and are within the constraints of the laws of physics.  If anything, they're less of a stretch than time travel or white holes, both of which are scientifically proven and accepted possibilities.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

The concept is still scientifically feasible, in theory.  Evolution has produced some remarkably bizarre results, such as the platypus.  Presuming Krypton was a heavy gravity world orbiting a aging star, therefore several billion years further along the evolutionary chain than our planet, and in conditions significantly more hostile than any known environment here, it wouldn't be unlikely for any existing life to have adapted to those conditions in a way which would appear to be extraordinary on an Earth-like planet with lower gravity and more favorable conditions.  Food, for instance, would be more difficult to acquire, as it would either have evolved better protection or would struggle in the harsh environment.  It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility, then, for animals to evolve a mechanism for harvesting energy directly from the most abundant source, the sun.

 

The age of the star also suggests that any intelligent life on that planet would have had, at a minimum, several tens of millions of years of further evolution and technological progress than we can lay claim to in the scant few million years our species has experienced.  What natural selection might fail to accomplish, science could, given that time frame.  Take our current DNA splicing and cloning abilities as an example.  Right now, we can give one species the abilities of other species, such as bioluminescence, or producing spider silk, by manipulating DNA.  We could, in fact, give an animal the ability to photosynthesize, today, but we can't make that animal's photosynthetic process actually provide any sustenance because we haven't finished unraveling the entire process in plants, or translated it to the anatomies of higher life forms.  But in a few decades...  Krypton would've had millions of years, so it's plausible that Kryptonians could have done that long ago, and on a world beset by high gravity and poor sunlight from a dying star, it would make sense to do so in order to aid the dominant species in survival, and even provide a level of comfort previously unobtainable.

 

So between some fiddling with Kryptonian DNA in a bygone era, and having been born on a heavy gravity planet, Superman's ability to utilize sunlight makes sense, from a scientific perspective.  His heavy-world origin would imply a denser cellular structure, thus accounting for his near invulnerability, and on a world with Earth-normal gravity, his strength would seem significantly greater than ours.  Retinal coating could be reflective in the IR spectrum, giving him heat vision, and specially adapted cones and rods could allow him to see in the X-ray spectrum (many animals can see into the UV and IR spectrums, neither of which we can accomplish without technology).  As his DNA would've been adapted to poor sunlight, a brighter star, such as Sol, would provide significantly more energy for his body.  One could hypothesize that this energy would be used at a cellular level, for repair and growth, and stored in much the same way our bodies store excess energy in the form of fat.

 

 

Yeah but ..

 

My Issue isn't with the Powers  ... Its with the Power.  The Sun's energy is too dispersed.  Given the feats he performs that we are shown, he would run out of Energy far faster than he could recover it.  Lifting a Tank, Killing people with Laser Beam Eyes and so on should be fairly Energy Intensive.

 

A plant for example is roughly 2% Efficient at converting the sun's energy to usable energy.  The tree doesn't do all that much to burn up its Energy so this works- it can store it as sugars.  Then something eats the sugar and gains Energy at a much faster rate.  Gasoline is Solar Energy too.  Originally coming from Plants just like food.  Just far far more concentrated by Time and Pressure, etc.  But even if Supes ran on pure gasoline he still wouldn't have anywhere near enough Energy to do the things he does.     

 

The only explanations for his actual Energy Expenditure would involve some sort of mass to energy conversion.  

 

Maybe the Solar Power is needed to trigger the Fusion Reactor in Supe's core.   Either that or he ate too many Metropolis Chili Dogs. 

  

 

[0th Power]

What if the yellow sun is just the catalyst?

[DoctorDitko]

It always seemed to me the Red Sun was just holding Kryptonians back.

Why else would Superman lose all his powers immediately under its light? He's not just losing a power source, his reserves are immediately drained. Or suppressed.

 

So maybe they evolved under a yellow sun, then over the eons as their star went red, they had access to fewer and fewer of their natural abilities.

 

Then Moses Kal-El is exposed to a yellow sun, which catalyzes (thanks, 0th Power!) the physics-breaking powers latent in every Kryptonian.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by DoctorDitko
persistent unintended link

[Greycat]

13 hours ago, 0th Power said:

What if the yellow sun is just the catalyst?

So Superman is a catalytic converter?

[arcane]

This is all up to interpretation. For instance, in the case of the dragon ball z example, I can see arguments for natural (they born that way), mutation (drawing power from non-human genes), or magic (all ki/chi related stuff has a mystical thing goin on).

 

Because of these interpretations, personally, most of my natural heroes are the weapon/strength based types.

Edited July 31, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[archgemini24]

With my apologies if I missed it earlier in the chat, but do I even want to throw in the consideration of Primary and Secondary powersets, or does the origin depend on one, the other, or reconciliation of both?

 

I ask because I see the Superman discussion as an attempt to reconcile all of his powers, but I am thinking of something like a Sword/Regen Scrapper or sort of Pre-Cog Pistols/Nin Sentinel. Would training with the tool make the character be Natural? Would the use of a tool at all be potentially Tech or Science to cover the Special Types or Rounds? And then all the shenanigans that can be an option with recovering from damage/fatigue or vector-based dodging. If the character naturally has abilities, but uses a tool as a means of focusing them, is the origin based on the tool? What about if you have a costume option that reflects character development and being able to use the abilities without the tool, anymore (I have a PB whose original costume uses gauntlets)?

 

OMG, the rabbit hole goes so deep! I'll be back to check on this later, but if I don't get out now I am going to spiral in theory-crafting madness!

[InvaderStych]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:21 PM, Greycat said:

 

If you fight crime by taking the bad guys, sticking them into a forge and turning them into things, then said smithing is part of your powerset.

 

I suspect that it is rather strange that I really want that power-set. 

 

On 7/29/2020 at 6:51 PM, Bastille Boy said:

But if they learned to control other people mentally by getting a Ph.D. in psychology, that power has a Science origin. Social science is science!

 

".... because there is no patch for Hellion Stupidity."

[Twisted Toon]

1 hour ago, archgemini24 said:

With my apologies if I missed it earlier in the chat, but do I even want to throw in the consideration of Primary and Secondary powersets, or does the origin depend on one, the other, or reconciliation of both?

 

I ask because I see the Superman discussion as an attempt to reconcile all of his powers, but I am thinking of something like a Sword/Regen Scrapper or sort of Pre-Cog Pistols/Nin Sentinel. Would training with the tool make the character be Natural? Would the use of a tool at all be potentially Tech or Science to cover the Special Types or Rounds? And then all the shenanigans that can be an option with recovering from damage/fatigue or vector-based dodging. If the character naturally has abilities, but uses a tool as a means of focusing them, is the origin based on the tool? What about if you have a costume option that reflects character development and being able to use the abilities without the tool, anymore (I have a PB whose original costume uses gauntlets)?

 

OMG, the rabbit hole goes so deep! I'll be back to check on this later, but if I don't get out now I am going to spiral in theory-crafting madness!

That was kind of what I went through with Hyper Dervish.

She uses magic. But, she also uses technology.

Her Primary was Magic, her secondary was Technology.

 

I went with magic because it was the basis of how everything else functioned.

[0th Power]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

So Superman is a catalytic converter?

I’ve never heard of him having exhaust problems...

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

I’ve never heard of him having exhaust problems...

If he did, would they be "super"? 

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

If he did, would they be "super"? 

Its not his fault, its the chilli dogs.

[cranebump]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Its not his fault, its the chilli dogs.

Chorizo, baby.  Chorizo.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/30/2020 at 8:44 AM, Nemeroff said:

Not to be difficult but what about Thundercats' Lion-O?

He uses a sword but said sword is Magical; changes size, etc...

 

EDIT: Personally I glance at the different Origin-titles to influence my origin.

I am going to assume your talking original thundercats rather than modern remake that turned snarf into a non speaking animal.

 

If me ol grey matter serves me right, even though he aged in his cryo pod, he also was the subject to some kind of education program while asleep, maybe that was in the comics though hard to say. However we do know from the show that the sword clearly has a reactive nature to its wielders will, the lions pride if you will forgive the pun as it was clear the swords powers tended to dim when his confidence was shaken. It also is an ancestral weapon and typical in sword and sorcery stories such weapons tend to carry something of the previous wielders and passes it on to the current when they truly become master of the weapon.

 

It is def a case of true magic origin, the claw shield was clearly a tech creation.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

10 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

If he did, would they be "super"? 

No the idea behind superman is he would certainly not have anything resembling indigestion or being gassy. There is actually a great moment in smallville were clark has to state it clearly to old johnny K when he is once again telling Clark to be careful. He says something along the lines of " Dad you cant understand, I never have accidents, I never stumble, I never slip, I never blink or sneeze and lose my focus for even a moment, only when there is kryptonite, or someone is using some kind of ability, and thats why I know that it wasnt some accident, because I dont have accidents"

 

Its important to always keep in mind superman as originally imagined and in the hands of the better writers is indeed truly perfect, and it is how he uses that perfect to inspire, rather than abuse it to terrorize that truly makes him a Superman.

[DoctorDitko]

10 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

... turned snarf into a non speaking animal.

Now this sounds like a Thundercats show I could enjoy!

 

That character was a complete immersion-breaker for me in the old show.

Edited August 1, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 minute ago, DoctorDitko said:

Now this sounds like  a Thundercats show I could enjoy!

You say that, but then I tell you they made Wily Kit and Wily cat into some of the most annoying little kid characters that dont even fight or do anything cool like they did in the OS. I mean Snarf was basically meant to be the doddering old nanny of Liono, and but frankly i loved him and his nephew, now admittedly I also loved scrappy doo so I may possibly be abit of a berk by most peoples ways of thinking.

[DoctorDitko]

Oh. Teen sidekicks. Never mind.

 

Scrappy-Doo? That's just wrong. There is a hard limit of one talking dog per show. Even Shaggy is pushing it.

Edited August 1, 2020 by DoctorDitko