Aggro and MSR

[Ukase]

I think this needs to be resolved, if possible. But, I'm not quite sure if it can. I present this information as true to the best of my knowledge. It's anecdotal, not scientific. But if I can trust the combat attributes, what some people are telling me makes no sense. 

If you've done an MSR, you've likely heard/read this, or something close to it: "Turn off group stealth! We need the Rikti to see us!". 

Now, today, for the first time ever, I was playing a character with group stealth, Arctic Fog. It's a toggle, and I keep it on, the same way I would keep on Plasma Shield or Caustic Aura. 

This is what I know with certainty:

A tank/brute with taunt is seen by the npc and others nearby when that tank taunts. But the taunt only lasts for about 6-8 seconds depending on the slotting of taunt, and perhaps the level of the npc. So, higher level foes may require more taunting to keep the attention on the tank (or brute). I say this because of my experience in playing a tank. When a tank is smashing an npc and taunting, only three things will stop that npc from continuing to attack the tank. 

1. Another character is doing more damage than the tank. 
2. The tank has moved too far away for the npc to see it. (sort of - hide in a dumpster, and they can still find you, even though they couldn't see you. )  
3. The npc is dead. 

If you monitor combat attributes, you can see your level of stealth. The higher the number, (which makes no sense to me), the greater your stealth. 
BUT - once you taunt, or attack an npc - you can see your stealth number drop to 0. 

I was in the bowl, and despite my having arctic fog on, my stealth dropped to zero. I'm dropping sleet, soul drain, blizzard, ice storm and burnout, and repeating the attack chain. So - why is it that people think the Rikti can't see them when group stealth is on? Are they not attacking? If not - why would they care? I would think if they are just buffing, they wouldn't want to be seen. If they are dishing out damage, they target and fire. If they are tanking - they are not staying in the bowl, they are leaving the bowl, herding 16 rikti, returning to the bowl, the rikti follow. The league kills them. It's baffling to me why people think this group stealth impacts a tank's taunt, or even a tank/brute's taunt aura. It doesn't. 

 

So, am I missing something? I've never had an issue bringing rikti to the bowl when group stealth is running. When I was tanking in my last msr, I heard the cry for turning off group stealth and stated in league it made no difference, keep it on. And it made no difference - at least, not to my tank. I got about 1000 vg merits, so it couldn't have been that bad. 

 

When I played my tank in msrs, I never had an issue with my celerity stealth in sprint and super speed running. When idle, my stealth is 65 feet. When I taunt or smack an rikti, it goes to zero. So why is it that people are continually believing that group stealth is a problem for tanks? Are these tanks just not slotting anything in taunt? 

So, if you're one of those who think group stealth impacts aggro  - please explain your position so that I understand it. If I'm wrong, I can admit that - but I can't explain away my anecdotal experience. 

 

[Apparition]

Stealth doesn't impact aggro when it comes to MSRs.  It's a myth that's been perpetuating since MSRs started.  I lead hundreds of MSRs on Champion and Exalted servers, and another hundred+ on Excelsior, and as far as I can tell stealth does not impact pulling Rikti to the bowl.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Apparition

[Techwright]

I was always under the impression that it had less to do with stealth, and more to do with too many of those powers running gumming up the fps for players with lesser computers.

 

At least, that's what has been stated in chat at times as we prepare to enter the bowl.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Techwright

[Jimmy]

30 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I was always under the impression that it had less to do with stealth, and more to do with too many of those powers running gumming up the fps for players with lesser computers.

AoE stealth ruins costumes 👎

[Techwright]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

AoE stealth ruins costumes 👎

Well, certainly, but if the city would finally add additional laundries certifiably-trained in the proper cleaning and care of super costumes, rather than just rely on Surge's team,  they might not ruin (at least not nearly as fast).  As it stands, Icon's laundry service is backed up, and those costumes sit long in the hamper marinating in residual AoE stealth funk. 

 

And, hey, it might be that healthy competition will bring the price down.  I mean, have you seen the Icon laundering bills?  I'm trying to save to put my triplet imps through college, and I need all the INF I can save.

 

I...I'm sorry.  I don't know what came over me.  Guess I just had to get that off my chest.

[SuperPlyx]

So my understanding was the game spawns x amount of baddies into the bowl at regular intervals. And the number is based on how many people are in the bowel. So stealth makes less baddies spawn because less the people are counted....not sure I explained that very well.

I have not seen anything that would prove this to be true or not. Just what I have seen in chats/posts

Edited October 5, 2020 by SuperPlyx
spelling

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

AoE stealth ruins costumes 👎

HA! Like anyone can see costumes in the messy bowl of an MSR, stealth or not. 

[Doomguide2005]

@SuperPlyx

That sounds like myth ..

Or my Earth/Storm would constantly enter empty maps with no one home since outside of escort/hostage missions she's running Steamy Mist 24-7.  I doubt the number spawning depends on the number of non-stealthed PCs vs total PCs in the bowl.

 

That said a number of stealth powers also have negative threat levels attached, but again many of my stealthy characters run among other things Super Speed which has -threat and I've never noticed that having an effect on spawning in mission maps.  I don't know offhand whether the -threat is suppressed along with the stealth. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Doomguide2005
Afterthought

[Ukase]

49 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

So my understanding was the game spawns x amount of baddies into the bowl at regular intervals. And the number is based on how many people are in the bowel. So stealth makes less baddies spawn because less the people are counted....not sure I explained that very well.

I have not seen anything that would prove this to be true or not. Just what I have seen in chats/posts

The thing is - just because you're stealthed doesn't mean you're not in the bowl. The game knows you're there. If this were true - the rikti wouldn't spawn at all when folks have steamy mist/arctic fog on. So, chalk that up to "bro-science" which is usually a complete fabrication based on misunderstandings. 

[Clave Dark 5]

8 hours ago, Jimmy said:

AoE stealth ruins costumes 👎

So does this mean that we're going to get a "minimal FX" option for stealth?  How about all those other costume-ruining abominations like Stone Mastery's Rock Armor?  C'mon, you've got the power here!!

[Bionic_Flea]

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

"Turn off group stealth! We need the Rikti to see us!". 

Part myth, part truth.  Once you have aggro'd a critter, they will stick to you unless they find a bigger threat, kill you, die, or start running away in fear of your awesomeness.  You can aggro critters by attacking, taunting, debuffing, OR being seen.  This is why you can stand in a huge crowd if you have complete invisibility (whatever combo you use to get there), until you take some aggressive action, including taunt and debuff auras.  But if you have no stealth, critters will attack as soon as they see you.

 

Personally, I don't turn off my stealth auras because most of them have additional benefits that outweigh not being seen.  If I or anyone around me wants to be seen, they just need to click some buttons. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Bionic_Flea

[Heraclea]

My method has always been to try to bring the Rikti into the bowl myself.   I go out of the bowl to topside, usually to one of the lower path areas.   There will typically be a lot of Rikti standing around idle there.   I learned on HC that taunting or attacking one of the unused bomb grates brings all the boys to the yard.  I will do this a couple times until I have a fair number of Rikti in melee range.  Then I jump away towards the bowl, using the rims and drop-offs to break line of sight momentarily with the herd.  Once they follow me down the rim, I move to the next one, and ultimately into the bowl.   The bigger challenge is getting them into the bowl past the crowd of stray lore, MM, and controller pets that have usually wandered away from the big scrum and towards the edges. 

 

If this tactic would be disrupted by someone running Steamy Mist or Shadowfall, I don't understand how, unless running them means that fewer Rikti appear topside to use the tactic on.  I am but one of many in a ship raid, and they tend to be rather hectic and a bit laggy, so I've never really surveyed their numbers. 

[Carnifax]

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

A tank/brute with taunt is seen by the npc and others nearby when that tank taunts. But the taunt only lasts for about 6-8 seconds depending on the slotting of taunt, and perhaps the level of the npc. So, higher level foes may require more taunting to keep the attention on the tank (or brute). I say this because of my experience in playing a tank. When a tank is smashing an npc and taunting, only three things will stop that npc from continuing to attack the tank. 

 

1. Another character is doing more damage than the tank. 
2. The tank has moved too far away for the npc to see it. (sort of - hide in a dumpster, and they can still find you, even though they couldn't see you. )  
3. The npc is dead. 

Taunts basic duration is 40 seconds or so. But Taunt as a power only hits 5 enemies. 

 

Punchevoke is probably what you are thinking of, which does last 6 seconds. Also your points here  aren't quite right. Damage won't make a difference, otherwise Blasters would be constantly pulling aggro off you. The enemy doesn't care about LoS if they are taunted they should follow you anyway. 

 

What will "break" taunt. 

1. It wearing off, especially in the case of "Punchvoke" cos its only ~6 seconds. So if you don't have an aggro aura (or something is outside of it) and aren't spamming AoEs is very possible for them "escape". 

2. You have gone over the aggro cap <---- This is probably the important one in an MSR.

3. The target is dead. 

 

 

[Black Zot]

51 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Personally, I don't turn off my stealth auras because most of them have additional benefits that outweigh not being seen.  If I or anyone around me wants to be seen, they just need to click some buttons. 

 

"This is Mr. Nesbitt of Harlowe, Newtown.  Mr. Nesbitt, will you stand up please?  ...  Mr. Nesbitt has learned the first lesson of not being seen - not to stand up.  However, he has chosen a very obvious piece of cover."

[Arcanum]

8 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

So does this mean that we're going to get a "minimal FX" option for stealth?  How about all those other costume-ruining abominations like Stone Mastery's Rock Armor?  C'mon, you've got the power here!!

*cough cough* Thermal Radiation Shields need it too *cough cough*

[zenblack]

56 minutes ago, GM Arcanum said:

*cough cough* Thermal Radiation Shields need it too *cough cough*

Shadow Fall. Fire farmers won't even do the decent thing and color it, so it looks like garbage in every raid.

[Ironblade]

20 hours ago, Ukase said:

If you've done an MSR, you've likely heard/read this, or something close to it: "Turn off group stealth! We need the Rikti to see us!".

I have never heard this, now or back on 'live'.  I used to run my dark defender all the time because Shadowfall gives AoE defense and resistance.  Maybe this is a Homecoming thing?  My dark defender is only up to level 34 (I think), so I have not yet done any mothership raids with her.  If anyone told me that, I would simply ignore them since they obviously don't understand the game mechanics well enough for their comments to have any value.

 

I do recall people claiming that stealth powers affected Rikti zone invasions - which was debunked by the devs.

[Doomguide2005]

Threat is what determines when (or if) a critter will aggro and on whom.  There was a post on the Live forums where Castle laid out the basic formula:

 

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT mod * AI mod * Range mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1000)

 

Each foe will have a list and will aggro on the highest threat on its list at a given moment.  The AI mod and Range mod aren't well known by the player base.

 

Much of this is pulled from the HCwiki (in turn that's pulled from the archived paragon wiki).  

[Apparition]

30 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

I have never heard this, now or back on 'live'.  I used to run my dark defender all the time because Shadowfall gives AoE defense and resistance.  Maybe this is a Homecoming thing?  My dark defender is only up to level 34 (I think), so I have not yet done any mothership raids with her.  If anyone told me that, I would simply ignore them since they obviously don't understand the game mechanics well enough for their comments to have any value.

 

I do recall people claiming that stealth powers affected Rikti zone invasions - which was debunked by the devs.

I remember this myth back on live, but nowhere to the degree as on Homecoming.  Then again, Champion was a much smaller server than Excelsior.

[Omega-202]

I've noticed a growing trend amongst the playerbase on Homecoming recently.  I have no idea what's causing it but there's a lot of "confidently incorrect" information spreading going on, both on the forums and in game.  

 

It's really baffling to me.  Why comment on things you have no idea about?  There's nothing wrong with not knowing the correct answer to something, but people constantly do more harm than good by then spreading wrong information.  

 

And the worst part is that so much of the information anyone could want is easily available.  @Bopper and others have given us encyclopedias of easily accessible information and yet people will interject in threads with utter nonsense.  

 

No, I take it back...the actual worst part is when they get upset when you correct them.

[Bionic_Flea]

It's my fault.  I stopped being helpful. 

 

Well, I stopped playing.  Not forever, but just haven't been feeling it lately.

 

[BZRKR]

Anecdote 1:

I have a Gravity/Dark controller, and with that Gravity/Dark controller, I can put Darkest Night on an unbroken grate nearest to the flat of the bowl and hide at the base of the ramp, just behind one of the corners at the edge of the ramp. Even with Shadowfall running, when Rikti hit that debuff, they will come running to me, even if they have never seen me, and stack up on the "point" of the corner at the base of the ramp just like when I pull them there with a Tanker or Brute.

 

Anecdote 2:

Sometimes when a player running a support character wants to be ornery, they will use Grant Invisibility on a puller, for funsies. When this has happened to one of my Tankers, it doesn't seem to impede my ability to pull in a group of Rikti. My (unscientific) feeling is that Gauntlet, Taunt, and Damage Dealt blow right through any stealth radius shenanigans. It is pretty funny though and leads to good-spirited banter on Discord.

Edited October 5, 2020 by BZRKR
words are hard

[Black Zot]

9 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Anecdote 1:

I have a Gravity/Dark controller, and with that Gravity/Dark controller, I can put Darkest Night on an unbroken grate nearest to the flat of the bowl and hide at the base of the ramp, just behind one of the corners at the edge of the ramp. Even with Shadowfall running, when Rikti hit that debuff, they will come running to me, even if they have never seen me, and stack up on the "point" of the corner at the base of the ramp just like when I pull them there with a Tanker or Brute.

 

Anecdote 2:

Sometimes when a player running a support character wants to be ornery, they will use Grant Invisibility on a puller, for funsies. When this has happened to one of my Tankers, it doesn't seem to impede my ability to pull in a group of Rikti. My (unscientific) feeling is that Gauntlet, Taunt, and Damage Dealt blow right through any stealth radius shenanigans. It is pretty funny though and leads to good-spirited banter on Discord.

 

As noted upthread, stealth only counts until you do something that affects an enemy in some way.  Once you've aggroed them, you could have a stealth radius anywhere between zero and infinity and it won't matter - the AI knows exactly where you are.

[EmmySky]

Just now, Black Zot said:

Once you've aggroed them, you could have a stealth radius anywhere between zero and infinity and it won't matter - the AI knows exactly where you are.

Ok....problem solving time....for all those dumb as a box of rocks escorts who lose us 3 feet away....let us slap them....then they won't have issues with accidental celerity or just your average sprint.  May even help Amy (?) learn to avoid imbedding herself in rock walls!

[VV]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:19 PM, Ukase said:

"Turn off group stealth! We need the Rikti to see us!". 

Utter nonsense. Even if stealth did work in combat, which is doesn't, why do we need the Rikti to see us? I have never seen a call for this. What server/shard are you seeing this on? Tell them this is a ridiculous myth and to stop repeating it.

 

On 10/4/2020 at 6:39 PM, Techwright said:

and more to do with too many of those powers running gumming up the fps for players with lesser computers.

This is the issue. Too many auras can really rape a low-quality system.  I used to see this called out sometimes. But, more recently, people just tell the complainer to turn down their graphics settings. Nowadays, most people know to do that, anyway.

 

The other issue I have heard is that it obscures player sight. As in, the person sitting in the chair literally cannot see targets on their screen. Nobody knows why this is important in a tab-targeting game, but for some reason it freaks some people out.

Edited October 6, 2020 by VV