Weekly Discussion 73: T9s Part 3 - Support

[GM Miss]

We finished building powersets, epic pools, patron/mentor pools, and finally pool powers over the past few weeks. I want to recognize a few people who keep coming back week after week with good ideas and kind words. These names are pulled from the discord and forum discussions. 

@ Mainframe / @Megawatt/ @Darkneblade / @Tyrannical / @Zepp

Please pm me with a character name and shard if you would like the golden title in game 'Weekly Discussion MVP'.

 

Weekly discussion 73 Week 10/18/20-10/24/20:
YOU VOTED: Let's talk about more T9s: this week is Defender (Primary)/Controller (Sec) /Corruptor (Sec)/Mastermind (Sec) Support!

 

❓ Things to think about:
>Check out powers here: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Primary_Power_Sets & https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Secondary_Power_Sets
>How do the powers compare to one another?
>Are they over powered or underpowered?
>What would you change and what do you love?

Let's Chat 😄

[Troo]

Congrats  @Megawatt/ @Darkneblade / @Tyrannical / @Zepp / @discord Mainframe.. and thank you!

 

I'll be back with some Corruptor comments. (really they are pretty good with maybe a couple outliers)

Corruptor  secondary T9 list

Spoiler

Cold Domination
Heat Loss     Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -End, -SPD, -Res(All), Team +End, +Recovery

 

Dark Miasma
Dark Servant     Summon Dark Servant: Ranged, Debuff, Special

 

Electrical Affinity
Amp Up     Ranged, Ally +Special, +Recharge

 

Force Field
Force Bubble     Toggle: PBAoE, Foe Repel, Knockdown

 

Kinetics
Fulcrum Shift     Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -DMG, Team +DMG

 

Nature Affinity
Overgrowth     PBAoE, Team +Damage, +To Hit, +Endurance Discount, +5 Bloom

 

Pain Domination
Painbringer     Ranged, Ally, +Regen, +Recovery, +DMG

 

Poison
Venomous Gas     Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -DEF(All), -Res(All), -DMG, -To-Hit

 

Radiation Emission
EM Pulse     PBAoE, Foe Hold, -End, -Regen, Special vs. Robots, Self -Recovery

 

Sonic Resonance
Liquefy     Ranged (Location AoE), Foe Hold, Knockdown, -To-Hit, -DEF(All)

 

Storm Summoning
Lightning Storm     Summon Storm: Ranged, High DMG(Energy), Foe -End

 

Thermal Radiation
Melt Armor     Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe -DEF(All), -Res(All)

 

Time Manipulation
Chrono Shift     PBAoE, Team +Recharge, Heal, +End, Moderate Healing over Time, +Recovery

 

Traps
Time Bomb     Place Bomb: PBAoE, Extreme DMG(Lethal/Fire), Foe Knockback

 

Trick Arrow
EMP Arrow     Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold, -Regen, -Recovery, -End, Special vs. Robots, Self -Recovery

 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Troo

[GM Miss]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

Congrats @Mainframe / @Megawatt/ @Darkneblade / @Tyrannical / @Zepp and thank you!

 

I'll be back with some Corruptor comments.

That isn't the right Mainframe, that's why I added the space. That is their name on discord. 😄

[Black Zot]

Force Field in general could use some work, and Force Bubble seems like a good place to start the overhaul - this power desperately needs ... SOMETHING to justify the power pick it takes up, to say nothing of the end cost.

 

I mean really, it's a stripped-down version of Hurricane, which is itself a highly situational power.  Calling that a tier 9 makes the self-rezzes look good.

[Machariel]

I think most of them are fine, broadly speaking.  For a lot of them the T9 is the capstone of the set and a lot of the reason you take the set (Fulcrum Shift, mostly)

The T9 doesn't need to be the best power in the set but there's a few powers that stand out as being stinkers:

Time Bomb (Traps) - because it's a pain the butt to use and doesn't do that much damage

Empathy  - A single target buff that solves a problem that doesn't come up much at high levels (endurance) and that it already does in spades with Recovery Aura and Regen Aura

Force Bubble - wowee Hurricane without the debuffs and higher level, whoopee.

 

Some T9s are better than others but I think that's fine, it's more important that the sets are balanced than that the T9 in one set is as "good" as the T9 in another set.

[Black Zot]

Just now, Machariel said:

 

Time Bomb (Traps) - because it's a pain the butt to use and doesn't do that much damage

 

 

Don't forget the Mastermind equivalent: Detonator.  Because your pets REALLY need the extra help with dying horribly (ie what they do best anyway).

[Alchemystic]

I think from personal experience healing is an extremely competitive factor between powersets, and it should perhaps be levelled out a little more. healing-focused powersets tend not to be as favorable as powersets that have a good mix of healing and support, like Thermal Radiation and Nature Affinity, whereas powers with very little healing like Poison and Storm Summoning tend to perform so poorly that the healing powers are often skipped.

Empathy: The healing potential of this powerset is entirely lacklustre when measured against Pain Domination and Nature Affinity, a way to fix this would be to give it much more healing power across the board, help it perform better.
 

Dark Miasma/Affinity: Twilight Grasp is annoying at times, because the chance to miss can make it a let down, especially after such a long animation. Having is so that if it misses it only deals a reduced amount of healing would be nice.

 

Kinetics: Transfusion has the same problem as Twilight Grasp, too reliant on accuracy. I propose a similar fix for this power too.

 

Poison: Single target heals are fine when you can shore it up with other sources, but in the case of Poison, Alkaloid is just too weak, and has an extremely long animation and projectile speed. I would suggest making this power a 'splash' AoE, where nearby targets are healed for a lesser amount to help balance this out.

Storm Summoning: Same issue as Poison, O2 boost just isn't that great, but it at least gets delivered much faster. I would suggest the same fix, giving it a smaller healing effect to allies within it's radius.

 

Traps: I know, I know, technically this one isn't healing, it's regeneration. But I still think that it could do with a buff. Triage beacon's immobile patch of regeneration isn't ideal when you compare it to Supress Pain or Lifegiving Spores. I would suggest making this a toggle instead, so you can redeploy it when and where you need it.

 

 

Other powersets with healing, like Pain Domination, Thermal Radiation, Nature Affinity and Time Manipulation all perform adequately enough, so they aren't really in dire need of improvements as far as their healing effectiveness goes.

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Empathy: The healing potential of this powerset is entirely lacklustre when measured against Pain Domination, a way to fix this would be to give it much more healing power across the board, help it perform better.

What? How?

[Alchemystic]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What? How?

because in addition to matching Empathy's healing, it also benefits from having a series of secondary buffs that increase its versatility, and possesses much more reliable healing delivery. 

Share Pain has a +DMG buff, whereas Absorb pain does not.
Conduit of Pain has a whole assortment of buffs, while Resurrect gets nothing.

Enforced Morale has way more benefits than that of Clear Mind.

Soothing Aura/Supress Pain simply just outperforms Regeneration Aura

World of Pain is an AoE version of Fortitude, just without the +DEF.
and finally Painbringer is just a more favourable version of Adrenaline Boost.

 

In addition to giving Empathy slightly more healing so it can keep up, I would also suggest rolling Recovery Aura and Regeneration Aura into a single power, and creating an entirely new power that grants more buffs to allies, or maybe debuffs foes.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

because in addition to matching Empathy's healing, it also benefits form having a series of secondary buffs that increase its versatility, and much more reliable healing delivery. 

Share Pain has a +DMG buff, whereas Absorb pain does not.
Conduit of Pain has a whole assortment of buffs, while Resurrect gets nothing.

Enforced Morale has way more benefits than that of Clear Mind.

Soothing Aura/Supress Pain simply just outperforms Regeneration Aura

World of Pain is an AoE version of Fortitude, just without the +DEF.
and finally Painbringer is just a more favourable version of Adrenaline Boost.

Oh, it sounded like you were saying that Pain outheals Empathy.

[Razor Cure]

All the support tier 9s are overshadowed by Fulcrum Shift. Behind that are Chrono Shift and Overgrowth.

Even comparing those best 3, FS is just..SO much better. Perfect with 4 (or even ONE slot, at a push), the only 'down' side is no IO options.

 

Onto the other sets..

 

Cold Dom and Heat Loss is also great, but HL has a much longer Rech than OG. Same rech as CS, but Chrono is buffed by itself.

 

Dark Servant is good, but I feel the extra control powers arent 'as' good in a set with a lot of soft control anyway, More damage?

 

Elec, Empathy and Pain Dom: Very similar tier9s. I think they are all good powers, just single target, with valid reasons.

 

Storm: Nice pet..but..it could really use a bigger target cap (4?!) and make it follow you instead of being static.

 

Rad: EMP. I am sure some people like this.but to me, a long rech aoe hold, on a mob that is already crippled by my debuffs? AND also kills my end. Yeah no thanks.

 

Therm: Melt Armour is good..but could use a shorter rech. Maybe a damage dot too.

 

Sonic: Liquefy IS great. A smaller rech and it would be amazing.

 

Trick Arrow: See Rad. But the hold is a bit more useful, in a set with no real -to hit.

 

Force Field: Way too situational.

 

Traps. 9 sec cast time? Get lost!

 

Poison: Good! Much better than on MM's. Just wish the set had an aoe splash heal for yourself too.

 

 

 

Traps

 

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Oh, it sounded like you were saying that Pain outheals Empathy.

Nah, just Pain has more goodies.

[Razor Cure]

6 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

ecause in addition to matching Empathy's healing, it also benefits from having a series of secondary buffs that increase its versatility, and possesses much more reliable healing delivery. 

Share Pain has a +DMG buff, whereas Absorb pain does not.
Conduit of Pain has a whole assortment of buffs, while Resurrect gets nothing.

Enforced Morale has way more benefits than that of Clear Mind.

Soothing Aura/Supress Pain simply just outperforms Regeneration Aura

World of Pain is an AoE version of Fortitude, just without the +DEF.
and finally Painbringer is just a more favourable version of Adrenaline Boost.

I don't know. I'd take a good emp over a good pain any day. Admittedly, 90% of emps (in my opinion) flat out suck.

 

Also..topic is about T9s. lol.

 

While sorta similar (in healing) Emp and PD aren't that close. PD is more attacking focuessed, hence the +damage. ANd being a corruptor set. As well as a far newer powerset.

[ZorkNemesis]

So when I leveled my Sonic MM past 38, I was severely disapointed by Liquify.  I  theory the power looks great: knockdown patch that cuts defense and to hit.  In practice, the recharge is a lot longer than I would have hoped and since the power has no slow component, it ends up scattering mobs more often then keeping them in range of the debuff field.  Perhaps if the power applied the debuffs seperate from the knockdown (so that if mobs escape, they remain weakened for a bit) it would be more useful, but as it stands I barely use it since it causes more problems in the end.

 

Also, Traps-Time Bomb is a terrible power.  By the time it goes off the fight's afterparty is already over.  The power works conceptually, but the time to detonation does not keep up with the current state of the game.  Blaster's Time Bomb is just as bad.  It might be difficult to code, but what if the Time Bomb was a Remote Bomb instead?  Activating it once will set the bomb, and activating it a second time sets it off if you use it within a minute.  Might make it a bit more usable while also keeping in theme with the set.

[Alchemystic]

11 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I don't know. I'd take a good emp over a good pain any day. Admittedly, 90% of emps (in my opinion) flat out suck.

 

Also..topic is about T9s. lol.

 

While sorta similar (in healing) Emp and PD aren't that close. PD is more attacking focuessed, hence the +damage. ANd being a corruptor set. As well as a far newer powerset.

 

So it is! My mind sorta skipped past the T9 part...  😅

 

I have a few things to say about T9s at least!

 

 

Time Bomb needs to have its deployment time reduced, or even made into a ranged power.

Force Bubble is just... it's funny, but it's not exactly effective. maybe some sort of click power that grants a big chunk of Absorb to foes would do better, while merging the utility of this power with Repulsion Field seems fitting.

Lightning Storm needs more damage I think, it's not great

 

Venomous Gas is good, it just really drains too much damn endurance!

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Razor Cure]

4 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

So it is! My mind sorta skipped past the T9 part...  😅

🙂 you werent the only one!

[Purrfekshawn]

Well, Traps T9 looks like a total lackluster. l was going to suggest once replace it to Damage boosting power, that would work similar to Farsight or Overgrowth:

 

Tier 9: Targeting Uplink

Click, PBAoE Affects Friendlies within 25' sphere

Has 4 minute recharge, works for 2 minutes. Increases ToHit chance and Damage.

+X TOHIT for 2 minutes (Unresistable).

+X DAMAGE for 2 minutes (Unresistable, Ignores Buffs and Enhancements).

Accept Enhancement Sets: ToHit Buffs

[Player2]

Storm Summoning... Lightning Storm is fairly impressive but immobile.  A good team makes it kind of pointless as they wipe out a group of mobs and move on... away from the Lightning Storm you just dropped, and it stops working if you move too far from it.  It's really only useful for AVs and giant monsters, things that take a little longer to kill.

 

How about making the cloud effect mobile, even if slow, so that it can follow the caster around until the next casting is ready?

[Zepp]

Just a quick overview of my thoughts. I'm considering these from both Team and Solo perspectives, but I don't PvP, so I can't tell you about that perspective.

 

 No need to change.

• Cold Domination - Heat Loss - Lack of -Rec makes -End fairly pointless. Also, -End doesn't match other powers, -Rech would be more thematic and useful. (also, it would be nice is the -Res was applied before the -Recharge)...
• Dark Miasma / Darkness Affinity - Dark Servant - Working fine (better with control sets).
• Electrical Affinity - Amp Up - It is useful on Galvanic Sentinel and some allies. Not a big fan of ST Ally buffs, but this is one of the better ones.
• Kinetics - Fulcrum Shift - A gamechanger. This is the only T9 that may be slightly overpowered. On the other hand, given the state of Support compared to DpS or Armor sets, bringing other T9s to this level is justifiable.

Team only / needs minor adjustments.

• Empathy - Adrenalin Boost - Without a pet in the set, this is useless for players that solo a lot. But it is a pretty decent situational power.
• Nature Affinity - Overgrowth - The recharge of this power needs to be dropped by 25-50%.
• Pain Domination - Painbringer - Great on a team, useless solo. Recharge kinda sucks.
• Poison - Venomous Gas - This is great for Support that likes being in Melee, but endurance cost is a little much.
• Storm Summoning - Lightning Storm - This is a really nice power if you know how to use it. The End Cost is a little high, but it works well for slightly longer battles. I can't find confirmation on this, but I believe that its attacks are similar to chain lightning, but has a very limited range. Increasing the chain range would make this better.

Needs improvements to be worthwhile.

• Force Field - Force Bubble - A fun power that needs a Hurricane-ish debuff and lower End Cost to be justifiable.
• Sonic Resonance - Liquefy - If you wanted Freezing Rain with a timer that is five times as long and doesn't give you as good of debuffs...
• Thermal Radiation - Melt Armor - It's okay. The Recharge is terrible, the duration could be longer, and the End Cost is a tad high. The effect itself is nice thought.
• Time Manipulation - Chrono Shift - If any support set should be able to go without Hasten, this is the one. Unfortunately, Chrono Shift requires Hasten for Perma. Cut the Recharge by 25-50% and this would be a good power.

Needs a complete overhaul.

• Radiation Emission - EM Pulse - Possibly the worst of the T9s on this list. No -Rec makes the -End not very useful. Only damages robots, a crash, terrible recharge. What is there to like? Oh, it does kinda look cool...
• Trick Arrow - EMP Arrow - Almost as bad as EMP, but the fact that it's ranged means you aren't in the middle of the melee when you crash.

 

Needs to be replaced.

• Traps - Time Bomb - One of the few Support powers that works better solo (outside of Storm Summoning). On a team it is completely useless. With the extremely long timer, it is fairly useless solo as well. That probably explains why it is confront-level popularity. If any power (other than confront) could justify a breaking of the cottage rule, this is the one. It is not as bad as EMP, but it is hard to see how this could be fixed rather than replaced.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Zepp

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Well, Traps T9 looks like a total lackluster. l was going to suggest once replace it to Damage boosting power, that would work similar to Farsight or Overgrowth:

 

Tier 9: Targeting Uplink

Click, PBAoE Affects Friendlies within 25' sphere

Has 4 minute recharge, works for 2 minutes. Increases ToHit chance and Damage.

+X TOHIT for 2 minutes (Unresistable).

+X DAMAGE for 2 minutes (Unresistable, Ignores Buffs and Enhancements).

Accept Enhancement Sets: ToHit Buffs

Why not just grab Targeting Drone from Devices?

[Razor Cure]

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

Cold Domination - Heat Loss - Lack of -Rec makes -End fairly pointless. Also, -End doesn't match other powers, -Rech would be more thematic and useful. (also, it would be nice is the -Res was applied before the -Recharge)...

It DOES do -rech. A huge 300% according to Mids. The -end is really really not the point of the power. It is YOUR +recovery that makes the power great. The extra -res is gravy.

 

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

Nature Affinity - Overgrowth - The recharge of this power needs to be dropped by 25-50%.

Not that I'd complain, but you can already get that power Perma. Lower rech would push it into OP fulcrum kinda territory.

 

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

Time Manipulation - Chrono Shift - If any support set should be able to go without Hasten, this is the one. Unfortunately, Chrono Shift requires Hasten for Perma. Cut the Recharge by 25-50% and this would be a good power.

Again..really? Are support sets meant to have powers that dont require hasten?

 

Don't get me wrong, I dont disagree with your points, but OG and CS should be far far down on the list of support t9s that need to be looked at.

[BrandX]

As someone who loves melee the most, I've made a lot of support builds and gotten them to 50...

 

Heat Loss.  Didn't find anything wrong with it on my 50 Cold Dom.

 

Dark Servant.  I'll be honest.  Not my personal favorite power in the set, but thought it worked well.  No issues.  Maybe some options in looks?

 

Amp Up.  Can't speak for this one.

 

Adrenalin Boost.  Meh.  What might make it interesting, is smaller numbers on it.  Possibly not permable.  Works on the caster in a PBAOE fashion.  Gives Regeneration/Recovery/Status Resist/+ToHit/+Damage/+Slow Resist/+Recharge...basically what a lot of the powers already do, but now grouped together.   Maybe on a 500 second.  60 Second duration.  Possibly even 90 seconds, but the 60 makes it so it can likely be cast with the Regen/Recovery Auras, but not stay on as long.

 

Force Bubble.  Not a fan.  If it was a smaller radius and added in some Defense/Resist...maybe.  Never felt like it was a good fit on teams.

 

Fulcrum Shift.  Never got into Kin, so couldn't give my own first hand opinion on it, but plenty seem to like it and teams like it.  🙂

 

Overgrowth.  Another I never got into, to give an opinion on.

 

Painbringer.  Never played it.  I would likely think something akin to Adrenalin Boost most likely.

 

Venomous Gas.  Never played the set.

 

EM Pulse.  Seemed fine to me.

 

Liquefy.  I don't recall hating it, but I don't recall enjoying playing the set.

 

Lightning Storm.  I love my Elec/Storm Troller, with the only thing I recall wishing was more damage, but to be fair, who doesn't?  😛

 

Melt Armor.  I liked it well enough.

 

Chrono Shift.  Love it.  Still don't fell this set is as powerful as others seem to like to say it is, but it's good survival and a fun set.

 

Time Bomb.  Never got into this set.  A shield that doesn't always stay up with you and laying out traps just never appealed to me.  Though, maybe the Traps that one lays, maybe best for just the big targets and not worry about them on the lower ranks.

 

Track Arrow.  Never got it high enough to judge.

[Zepp]

2 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

It DOES do -rech. A huge 300% according to Mids. The -end is really really not the point of the power. It is YOUR +recovery that makes the power great. The extra -res is gravy.

Oops, sorry, I didn't catch that (wasn't in the power description). I moved it to the doesn't need to be fixed area.

2 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Not that I'd complain, but you can already get that power (Overgrowth) Perma. Lower rech would push it into OP fulcrum kinda territory.

First, I would only call Fulcrum overpowered as compared to other support powers. In terms of the current game, it is about where it should be. Also, while it is possible to perma it, reducing the recharge to 150-180ish range would reduce the overall need for global recharge and provide a lot more flexibility for builds.

2 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Again..really? Are support sets meant to have powers that dont require hasten?

 

Don't get me wrong, I dont disagree with your points, but OG and CS should be far far down on the list of support t9s that need to be looked at.

Currently, most support and control sets "require" Hasten. The reason Overgrowth is in the tweak category is because of the Hasten requirement it is not fine as is. The reason that Chrono Shift is in the needs improvement is the same, except with irony. Currently, for the most part, Hasten is not "required" outside of Control and Support powersets. This puts these sets at a huge disadvantage in a game that already makes Support and Control much less consequential in the endgame. As such, I think moving away from the ultra-long recharge that currently exists in these powers is reasonable. (These are not Armor god-mode or Blaster nuke powers, these are bread-&-butter powers that define the set)

[Carnifax]

Time, Nature, Kinetics & Dark are fine imo. Time and Nature give you hefty teamwide buffs. You need to work a little to get them "perma" but that's okay. Fulc Shift is great. Dark Servant isn't a DPS master but being able to dump a mini-dark defender into a spawn knowing there'll be lots of -ToHit, some -Dam and the occasional heal is a good thing. 

 

EMP / EMP Arrow (and all AOE Holds) need to be rejigged slightly, unifiying the recharges across all ATs & sets would make the most sense. 

 

Lightning Storm, I always thought their blast should chain but maybe that would be too much. 

 

[tidge]

I'm going to chime in that the Traps T9 (for Defenders/Corruptors and Masterminds... but to be fair, with MMs it is more because the loss of the pet is a combined loss of DPS and a waste of time) is (in most cases) a waste. I can imagine the reasoning behind trying to make that set's T9 a 'nuke', but I feel like that was the wrong direction for that set to go in, considering the (other, placed on ground) powers that come before.

 

If I was going to spitball a replacement T9 power for 'Traps', I'd start by considering some sort of 'mechanical device' that behaved like an aura that provided +Res(All) and/or +DMG. You know... like a vastly improved version of what is in the Leadership pool.