Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[AerialAssault]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I think brute is the AT that got the least out of the changes, but if a talented brute can get to their dmg cap it could get nutty.

I've tried it on a /Rad Brute with a Basic IO build, no sets. I was doing the new arc with a friend at level 39, and I was throwing out ~550 ET's while near max Fury, more than enough to cripple a Boss or delete a Minion/LT.

 

It's not too hard to imagine what a fully kitted out, damage capped Brute could do with Energy Transfer.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

@Troo I apologize for not making that part more clear -- yes, there are visual cues everywhere so you'll know when EF is up without looking at your bar.  That's why that was being interpreted as an overstatement.

It's possible I have them turned off. I honestly have never seen them.

 

[Edit] Ah ha!

 

So at the zoom range shown below there are damage numbers for just a flash but no Energy Focus message.

 

Zooming out there is indeed a message, it is tough to miss.

 

There is also no message zoomed into first person like mode. (Will check live Energy Assault later to confirm and report)

 

Also, the Energy Focus can be covered with the map or other. Its there we can barely make it out. The Icon in the buff bar can be a lost cause in a busy area. It is red.

   

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

I've tried it on a /Rad Brute with a Basic IO build, no sets. I was doing the new arc with a friend at level 39, and I was throwing out ~550 ET's while near max Fury, more than enough to cripple a Boss or delete a Minion/LT.

 

It's not too hard to imagine what a fully kitted out, damage capped Brute could do with Energy Transfer.

Yeah and its not awful on them honestly, but What they gain is from what they already have, Fury, high dmg cap.

 

Stalkers get ST love,

 

tankers get a mix off st and aoe

 

Scrappers get ST that gets set up by AOE use.

 

Thats my perspective anyway.

[Bopper]

Did some quick math. I looked up Brute numbers (wide range of powersets to pick from) to see how many attacks have a DPA of 45 or more (filtering mostly because I didn't want to post 146 different powers). This threshold marks the cut-off point for the top 30 DPA attacks for Brute Melee.

 

So how does Energy Melee compare?

It is the only set that has 4 attacks with a DPA over 45: 

Energy Punch (45.8153), Bone Smasher (47.1079), Energy Transfer (65.4914), and Total Focus (53.564).

 

Quick comparison to the current HC version:

Energy Punch (39.4959), Bone Smasher (39.8605), Energy Transfer (65.4914), and Total Focus (43.2632).

 

So already, we can see the buffs have brought up 3 of the powers considerably. Throw in the fast version of Energy Transfer (160.0902, which surpasses the current top DPA power Freezing Touch, 102.3383). 

 

Some trivia nuggets:

Energy Melee is the only set with 4 attacks with atleast a DPA of 45. Battle Axe and Fiery Melee (surprisingly) are the only others with atleast 3. 

 

But...in case folks think I'm completely gaming it, I'm not. Energy Melee is also the only set that has two powers in the top 10 DPA attacks. Total Focus is 10th, and slow Energy Transfer is (4th). I am very curious if any other set can overtake EM as ST king. If Energy Melee isn't ST king, it's near the top. Even without fast ET, it will compete.

 

The list:

Powerset	Name	Damage	DPA	Cast	Rank
Battle Axe	Gash	81.7471	47.6382	1.5	24
Battle Axe	Swoop	95.0936	48.027	1.83	20
Battle Axe	Cleave	115.113	45.8984	2.33	30
Street Justice	Crushing Uppercut	132.6305	55.8209	2.17	9
Broad Sword	none
Claws	Focus	62.9786	47.7111	1.17	23
Dark Melee	Smite	55.0542	46.3419	0.97	27
Dark Melee	Midnight Grasp	115.1133	51.2982	2.07	14
Dual Blades	Ablating Strike	55.0542	46.3419	1.03	27
Dual Blades	Sweeping Strike	70.9031	48.8313	1.23	19
Electrical Melee	Chain Induction	55.0542	46.3419	1	27
Energy Melee	Energy Punch	48.3809	45.8153	0.83	31
Energy Melee	Bone Smasher	68.4006	47.1079	1.27	26
Energy Melee	Energy Transfer (fast)	190.1871	160.0902	1	1
Energy Melee	Energy Transfer (slow)	190.1871	65.4914	2.67	5
Energy Melee	Total Focus	148.7494	53.564	2.53	11
Fiery Melee	Cremate	85.0837	49.5826	1.5	16
Fiery Melee	Incinerate	104.2693	56.4228	1.67	8
Fiery Melee	Greater Fire Sword	124.1995	49.5213	2.33	17
Ice Melee	Freezing Touch	121.5779	102.3383	1	2
Katana	Souring Dragon	75.0739	47.3951	1.33	25
Katana	Golden Dragonfly	95.0936	48.027	1.83	20
Kinetic Melee	Concentrated Strike	478.4794	48.9063	2.83	18
Martial Arts	Storm Kick	55.0542	52.1346	0.83	12
Martial Arts	Crippling Axe Kick	88.4203	47.8465	1.6	22
Psionic Melee	none
Radiation Melee	none
Savage Melee	Maiming Slash	66.2574	50.195	1.17	15
Savage Melee	Vicious Slash	102.7867	55.6205	1.67	10
Spines	none
Staff Fighting	none
Stone Melee	Heavy Mallet	95.0936	51.4576	1.63	13
Stone Melee	Seismic Smash	148.4794	86.5265	1.5	3
Super Strength	Knockout Blow	148.4794	62.4913	2.23	6
Titan Weapons	Follow Through	81.7471	61.9296	1.1	7
War Mace	Clobber	121.7865	83.875	1.23	4

Edited October 25, 2020 by Bopper

[Drakwatch]

Has anyone reported on this yet?

From what I have read and what I tested, Whirling Hands are not affected by energy focus.

 

Also, cryptid @Jimmy

[Safehouse]

Just now, Drakwatch said:

Has anyone reported on this yet?

From what I have read and what I tested, Whirling Hands are not affected by energy focus.

 

Also, cryptid @Jimmy

I hadn’t seen that, but yeah power crash is affected by energy focus, not whirling hands (unless I missed WH lighting up too). The tooltip should probably have power crash in there.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Drakwatch said:

Has anyone reported on this yet?

From what I have read and what I tested, Whirling Hands are not affected by energy focus.

It's likely a carry over from EF on Energy assault, didn't even notice that mistake haha

[ScarySai]

I don't think you even can turn that off. Should be pretty easy to monitor if you have focus or not, unless you're watching something that isn't your screen.

[Xanatos]

47 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

... Super Strength...

 

[Troo]

15 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I don't think you even can turn that off. Should be pretty easy to monitor if you have focus or not, unless you're watching something that isn't your screen.

Turns out that may not be the case for everyone.

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, Nuke Leah said:

You can play a mastermind effectively without taking any of the pets.  

That is news to me.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Did some quick math. I looked up Brute numbers (wide range of powersets to pick from) to see how many attacks have a DPA of 45 or more (filtering mostly because I didn't want to post 146 different powers). This threshold marks the cut-off point for the top 30 DPA attacks for Brute Melee.

 

So how does Energy Melee compare?

It is the only set that has 4 attacks with a DPA over 45: 

Energy Punch (45.8153), Bone Smasher (47.1079), Energy Transfer (65.4914), and Total Focus (53.564).

 

Spoiler

 

Quick comparison to the current HC version:

Energy Punch (39.4959), Bone Smasher (39.8605), Energy Transfer (65.4914), and Total Focus (43.2632).

 

So already, we can see the buffs have brought up 3 of the powers considerably. Throw in the fast version of Energy Transfer (160.0902, which surpasses the current top DPA power Freezing Touch, 102.3383). 

 

Some trivia nuggets:

Energy Melee is the only set with 4 attacks with atleast a DPA of 45. Battle Axe and Fiery Melee (surprisingly) are the only others with atleast 3. 

 

But...in case folks think I'm completely gaming it, I'm not. Energy Melee is also the only set that has two powers in the top 10 DPA attacks. Total Focus is 10th, and slow Energy Transfer is (4th). I am very curious if any other set can overtake EM as ST king. If Energy Melee isn't ST king, it's near the top. Even without fast ET, it will compete.

 

The list:

Powerset	Name	Damage	DPA	Cast	Rank
Battle Axe	Gash	81.7471	47.6382	1.5	24
Battle Axe	Swoop	95.0936	48.027	1.83	20
Battle Axe	Cleave	115.113	45.8984	2.33	30
Street Justice	Crushing Uppercut	132.6305	55.8209	2.17	9
Broad Sword	none
Claws	Focus	62.9786	47.7111	1.17	23
Dark Melee	Smite	55.0542	46.3419	0.97	27
Dark Melee	Midnight Grasp	115.1133	51.2982	2.07	14
Dual Blades	Ablating Strike	55.0542	46.3419	1.03	27
Dual Blades	Sweeping Strike	70.9031	48.8313	1.23	19
Electrical Melee	Chain Induction	55.0542	46.3419	1	27
Energy Melee	Energy Punch	48.3809	45.8153	0.83	31
Energy Melee	Bone Smasher	68.4006	47.1079	1.27	26
Energy Melee	Energy Transfer (fast)	190.1871	160.0902	1	1
Energy Melee	Energy Transfer (slow)	190.1871	65.4914	2.67	5
Energy Melee	Total Focus	148.7494	53.564	2.53	11
Fiery Melee	Cremate	85.0837	49.5826	1.5	16
Fiery Melee	Incinerate	104.2693	56.4228	1.67	8
Fiery Melee	Greater Fire Sword	124.1995	49.5213	2.33	17
Ice Melee	Freezing Touch	121.5779	102.3383	1	2
Katana	Souring Dragon	75.0739	47.3951	1.33	25
Katana	Golden Dragonfly	95.0936	48.027	1.83	20
Kinetic Melee	Concentrated Strike	478.4794	48.9063	2.83	18
Martial Arts	Storm Kick	55.0542	52.1346	0.83	12
Martial Arts	Crippling Axe Kick	88.4203	47.8465	1.6	22
Psionic Melee	none
Radiation Melee	none
Savage Melee	Maiming Slash	66.2574	50.195	1.17	15
Savage Melee	Vicious Slash	102.7867	55.6205	1.67	10
Spines	none
Staff Fighting	none
Stone Melee	Heavy Mallet	95.0936	51.4576	1.63	13
Stone Melee	Seismic Smash	148.4794	86.5265	1.5	3
Super Strength	Knockout Blow	148.4794	62.4913	2.23	6
Titan Weapons	Follow Through	81.7471	61.9296	1.1	7
War Mace	Clobber	121.7865	83.875	1.23	4

 

Are these the Live numbers or the Beta numbers? (just to be clear)

Do you have the Animation times handy?

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

Turns out that may not be the case for everyone.

Well, that's all the more reason to keep the mechanic exclusively to 100% chance to trigger methods, isn't it?

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, Nuke Leah said:

Glad I could inform you!  The point was that nothing in this game is required to be successful.  It's easy.

This is an entertaining addition. To avoid going off topic, why don't you DM me with the builds you are using to be an effective petless mastermind, I am genuinely interested. Please don't disappoint me!

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

Are these the Live numbers or the Beta numbers? (just to be clear)

Do you have the Animation times handy?

 

That table is from Beta numbers. The cast time is provided in the table, however the DPA was calculated using arcana time, which uses the formula

Arcana = ceiling( 1 + Cast / 0.132) * 0.132

[Troo]

Thanks!

I've been looking at the TF > ET chain with the combo. There is something fishy there I can't quite pin down.

 

I keep ending back at: If fast ET needs TF then fast ET animation time is really TF animation time + ET animation time which isn't really fast.

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

Yeah that will be the sticking point. Because from my vantage it is not true.

 

Part Time does not equal Full Time

Being required to take a power to get it does not equal pre-nerf function.

At some lower levels it is not going to be available where it was before.

 

The benefits people are seeing are a result of the reduced animation times. Those could be had without the combo mechanic.

 

I am glad folks are getting to see why we loved the old Energy Transfer and how big of a difference that change was. Animation times can make a big difference in the feel of the set.

 

When I lost ET fast attack on Live.  Well, I shelved it because I just didn't like the new ET animation.  Still not the biggest fan of it on HC, but I just love EM.  So, tried to get my main back to EM.

 

Having ET sped up only when used after TF, isn't bad and pretty much gives the speed up all the time, unless you do something wonky with your recharge times.

 

And, while I wasn't one who thought EM needed more AOE (not if it stepped on the ST DPS toes), the changes give people that option too, which isn't bad.  However, it just means, one sacrifices the ST DPS (fast ET) to go the AOE route (unless they crit).

 

Not the way I'd have gone with it.  I wouldn't really call EM a big combo set, as I play those.  😛  And really, even the sets that aren't combos, one tends to have an attack order for best damage and then throwing in the side attacks for whatever reason.

[Kazgaroth]

See Lex Talion's post above, I don't think I could say it and better. Pesonally I would rather keep playing my EM brute as is then to have yet another combo set. I will hold off on judgement of the scrapper set until I try it out but I don't have much hope at this point.

 

[Monos King]

18 minutes ago, Nuke Leah said:

Since you can solo most of the game's content with pool power attacks alone, I think maybe your hyperbole is pushing the limit of my hyperbole.

Here is a note then: perhaps be more careful with your hyperbole. Going that far is easily subject to false comparisons and digression. 

[BrandX]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

Thanks!

I've been looking at the TF > ET chain with the combo. There is something fishy there I can't quite pin down.

 

I keep ending back at: If fast ET needs TF then fast ET animation time is really TF animation time + ET animation time which isn't really fast.

 

I get what you're saying.  However, that's just called attacking.  Want to 1 shot two minions in a row fast?  TF > ET.  Enemy won't go down in one hit?  Faster to go TF > ET than ET > TF.  And when I play EM and go after those single strong targets, I used both attacks.

 

So, really, with that logic, you may as well be saying ET really equals TF > ET > BS > EP > Repeat or some such.

 

Only now, you can go TF > PC > WH for those times you'd rather have more AOE.

 

That's the only difference this "combo" system really seems to do.  "Do you want fast ST or do want to have a bit more AOE?"

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

Thanks!

I've been looking at the TF > ET chain with the combo. There is something fishy there I can't quite pin down.

 

I keep ending back at: If fast ET needs TF then fast ET animation time is really TF animation time + ET animation time which isn't really fast.

That would still be 8.12 scale damage in 3.53s (not including arcana).

[Troo]

13 minutes ago, Bopper said:

That would still be 8.12 scale damage in 3.53s (not including arcana).

yeah the total damage just out weighs the animation time.

 

14 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I get what you're saying.  However, that's just called attacking.  Want to 1 shot two minions in a row fast?  TF > ET.  Enemy won't go down in one hit?  Faster to go TF > ET than ET > TF.  And when I play EM and go after those single strong targets, I used both attacks.

 

So, really, with that logic, you may as well be saying ET really equals TF > ET > BS > EP > Repeat or some such.

 

Only now, you can go TF > PC > WH for those times you'd rather have more AOE.

 

That's the only difference this "combo" system really seems to do.  "Do you want fast ST or do want to have a bit more AOE?"

I'm still working it out. I formerly had multiple small attack chains that involved multiple targets that were applied situationally depending on a target group makeup.

 

It seems I leveraged the stuns more than many folks. Bone Smash, Energy Transfer, Air Superiority, Stun could do a lot of control on multiple targets pretty quickly.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Troo

[ForeverLaxx]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

many of the early iterations to Energy Melee changes tried their best to avoid them, but in the end, Energy Transfer is a special mechanic power that is ridiculously hard to balance without a more elaborate approach

This doesn't make sense to me. According to people here, keeping the Focus mechanic up "without even trying" seems to be saying that Energy Melee always has instant Energy Transfer when it wants it. If that's the case, why have the Focus mechanic at all except to boost a cone AoE that could just have more targets by default and not be a wasted power pick otherwise? If the goal is to keep ET "on a leash" by tying it to TF's recharge + animation time, then I don't see how the same effect can't be replicated by just leaving ET at its old 20 second recharge and keep the sped up animation, decoupling it from TF and achieving the same functional result.

 

All that really does is let people use ET to one-shot LTs or whatever faster and hardly does anything to change a chain against bosses or tougher enemies. Is it really such a big deal that EM could delete a single LT in 1 second every 20 seconds when everyone else is blasting so many AoEs the only things left standing are bosses anyway? Or would this "warp" the chain so badly that people just stopped taking TF entirely and you thought that was a problem?

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I've been looking at the TF > ET chain with the combo. There is something fishy there I can't quite pin down.

 

I keep ending back at: If fast ET needs TF then fast ET animation time is really TF animation time + ET animation time which isn't really fast.

 

Note there is currently a bug (noted by one person very early in the thread) that Total Focus is executing the slow animation half the time while flying. That drastically can slow the chain, a fix is in for that in the next build among a few other bugs squashed. In the meantime, don't test for performance while flying.

[Troo]

@ForeverLaxx kind of have to separate what peeps be saying from Devs. It definitely discounts some of the anecdotal arguments. They got an idea, ran with it and this is where it's at.