Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

Can Stalkers get Whirling Hands instead of Power Crash?

 

Lining up cone attacks is just not worth it most of the time (For aoe) due to how fast this game can move.  Other cone attacks such as Ripper, Eviscerate and Sweeping Cross also function very well as Single Target damage, but Energy Melee has enough single target damage.  While I see the number of targets hit goes up with total focus, still does not seem worth it.

 

Suggested this without knowing Power Crashes width.

Please test it. The arc is 120 degrees and 10 ft radius (same as Titan Weapon cones). Also, stalkers get a superior Power Crash over other ATs. You would be asking for a giant nerf to Stalker AoE if you make it Whirling Hands

[csr]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Troo, run the BU + AS around 20-40 times for an avg?

Given that he's missing based on ToHit rolls, he'd really be testing to see if the RNG is biased in some way related to BU, Hide and AS.  The likelihood of that is pretty slim.

 

Also, that's actually a pretty low number of trials for binomial testing.  You usually want to be able to use the normal approximation for your statistical tests on binomial distributions.  Computers have made that less of an issue since it's easier to calculate the exact numbers, but it's still pretty much the standard.  For a binomial distribution the normal approximation is typically only used when np(1-p) >= 10 or n >= 10/p/(1-p).  Here that's about 200 trials.

 

Still, if he goes out and misses 10 times in 20 tries, that would indicate making a 200+ trial test may be worth the effort.

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Please test it. The arc is 120 degrees and 10 ft radius (same as Titan Weapon cones). Also, stalkers get a superior Power Crash over other ATs. You would be asking for a giant nerf to Stalker AoE if you make it Whirling Hands

Over the years playing an /energy dom, things die very fast for Total Focus to finish, or the follow up effect not lasting long enough to get to the next group.  While asking for Whirling Hands was too much as it is, I would also love it if the old stalker sets (issue 6's katana, claws, dual blades?, and MA) to get their AoEs back in some form.  I am aware of MA's Eagle Claw's new cone

 

Also remember, Titan cones only hit 5 targets(nontank), and its pretty easy to do so.  However varying enemy size/placement/rest of your teams CC abilities will limit Power Crash's chances of hitting the full 5(10) targets.  A nice 360 degrees Whirling Hands will just be a nice fire and go

[siolfir]

On 11/4/2020 at 12:12 PM, ScarySai said:

The only thing I could really ask for at this point is if ET could knock my target across the room, but only on a killing blow.

So, damage past the enemy's remaining hit points is converted to unresisted knockback on a 1:1 basis? It would at least make the slow version more amusing, since all the damage would be converted on a corpse blast.

 

17 hours ago, BrandX said:

Okay.  Got it to happen.  Is TF just not critting as often?  I know it's less damage, but is it's chance to crit lower too?

It is not critting as often as the last patch - the tradeoff for critical damage in ET was a reduced critical chance in Total Focus (20% to 10% in the patch notes). I'm surprised you didn't get any in five minutes of playing, but you were probably having the same RNG issues that Troo was having with BU+AS (which anecdotally I also feel misses far more often than it should, but that's because you remember the misses).

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

I am aware of MA's Eagle Claw's new cone

It's off-topic for this thread, but was brought up here, so I'm responding here: the changes to Eagle Claw were rolled back in the last patch.

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Over the years playing an /energy dom, things die very fast for Total Focus to finish, or the follow up effect not lasting long enough to get to the next group.  While asking for Whirling Hands was too much as it is, I would also love it if the old stalker sets (issue 6's katana, claws, dual blades?, and MA) to get their AoEs back in some form.  I am aware of MA's Eagle Claw's new cone

 

Also remember, Titan cones only hit 5 targets(nontank), and its pretty easy to do so.  However varying enemy size/placement/rest of your teams CC abilities will limit Power Crash's chances of hitting the full 5(10) targets.  A nice 360 degrees Whirling Hands will just be a nice fire and go

If cones are hard, I do recommend hop attacking. Jump above the head of the target of your foe and attack with Power Crash. You will be able to achieve a 8.66' radius AoE. You'll also do nearly double the damage in a shorter cast time. You'll only hit 5, but you can expend EF to make it 10 tgts.

 

I dont see how much your past play experience with Doms will translate. The new Energy Focus mechanic is much easier than the current Live version of Energy Assault. It is granted even when TF misses, so you don't have to fear the death of the enemy you're attacking. You also don't go into 15s lockout.

 

Please test the set please.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Bopper

[BrandX]

9 minutes ago, siolfir said:

So, damage past the enemy's remaining hit points is converted to unresisted knockback on a 1:1 basis? It would at least make the slow version more amusing, since all the damage would be converted on a corpse blast.

 

It is not critting as often as the last patch - the tradeoff for critical damage in ET was a reduced critical chance in Total Focus (20% to 10% in the patch notes). I'm surprised you didn't get any in five minutes of playing, but you were probably having the same RNG issues that Troo was having with BU+AS (which anecdotally I also feel misses far more often than it should, but that's because you remember the misses).

 

Well, I was specifically looking at the rings during my testing, as I was trying to determine if Barrage was giving the -Regen/-Special, since I was using EF on ET.

 

However, perhaps I should put Critical Strikes to an attack before TF, but then I wouldn't get the increased chance on ET.

[kelika2]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If cones are hard, I do recommend hop attacking. Jump above the head of the target of your foe and attack with Power Crash. You will be able to achieve a 8.66' radius AoE. You'll also do nearly double the damage in a shorter cast time. You'll only hit 5, but you can expend EF to make it 10 tgts.

 

I dont see how much your past play experience with Doms will translate. The new Energy Focus mechanic is much easier than the current Live version of Energy Assault. It is granted even when TF misses, so you don't have to fear the death of the enemy you're attacking. You also don't go into 15s lockout.

 

Please test the set please.

To make it simple, I want simple.  Whirling Hands is good to go from hide/without setup

[siolfir]

21 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

To make it simple, I want simple.  Whirling Hands is good to go from hide/without setup

A recurring theme from many who dislike the Energy Focus mechanic. I'm not happy about being forced into using Total Focus, but found it a tolerable change - mostly because the animation was sped up. It's not my first choice, though.

 

But to address the rest of the post: Stalker PC is just as good to go from hide as Whirling Hands would be IMO, and doesn't really need any more setup time for positioning. You might hit fewer targets (without EF) but the ones you hit are hurt more.

[Direct Crit]

19 minutes ago, siolfir said:

A recurring theme from many who dislike the Energy Focus mechanic. I'm not happy about being forced into using Total Focus, but found it a tolerable change - mostly because the animation was sped up. It's not my first choice, though.

 

But to address the rest of the post: Stalker PC is just as good to go from hide as Whirling Hands would be IMO, and doesn't really need any more setup time for positioning. You might hit fewer targets (without EF) but the ones you hit are hurt more.

I would say that losing Hide to an inferior AoE is a valid complaint since you can't generate EF from hide without an ATO, so perhaps Stalkers would be a prime candidate for the BU grants EF? I also think in general BU should grant EF for smoother AoE in general (since part of the reason PC is being added is to gift EM more AoE).

[Wavicle]

Just now, Tactical said:

I would say that losing Hide to an inferior AoE is a valid complaint since you can't generate EF from hide without an ATO, so perhaps Stalkers would be a prime candidate for the BU grants EF? I also think in general BU should grant EF for smoother AoE in general (since part of the reason PC is being added is to gift EM more AoE).

You have to wind up to get the giant damage AS. Seems unlikely they’ll give you fast ET with no wind up.

[ABlueThingy]

4 minutes ago, Tactical said:

I would say that losing Hide to an inferior AoE is a valid complaint since you can't generate EF from hide without an ATO, so perhaps Stalkers would be a prime candidate for the BU grants EF? I also think in general BU should grant EF for smoother AoE in general (since part of the reason PC is being added is to gift EM more AoE).

I'm pretty sure that's specifically what they don't want to do, give a stalker two assassin strikes

[Direct Crit]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You have to wind up to get the giant damage AS. Seems unlikely they’ll give you fast ET with no wind up.

A fast ET from Hide is absolutely a waste regardless. You'd either wanna pop Bone Smasher or TF for the Extra EF and since you'd not get extra EF from using BU into TF there's no triple stacking of EF to worry about. It at the most could be parlayed into a triple Fast ET during BUs window but understandably they'd be dragging BUs number down due to the EF bonus which I think is very worth it for the extra actual damage it'll grant via EF.

 

Further the wind-up for AS grants more damage and specifically an incredibly useful debuff. However as builds progress and IOs are introduced you rarely, if ever, use slow AS and instead rely on other attacks from hide simply because waiting to AS a target is not worth it.

6 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

I'm pretty sure that's specifically what they don't want to do, give a stalker two assassin strikes

They already have it, one just animates slightly faster on occasion.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Tactical
Removed redundant regardless.

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Tactical said:

They already have it, one just animates slightly faster on occasion.

Both of them have ~3 sec to ~1 sec conditional animations, so both animate faster on occasion. Lots of parallels, with the exception of a scale 7 slow ET critical.

[Azera]

On 11/1/2020 at 9:34 PM, Tsuko said:

Double Nrj focus is the result of native stakers and scrapper powers, Tankers have larger aoe with more targets and Fury apply 100% to all EM powers.

 

Devs already moved the -reg - special to let tanker have 100% acces to this effect.

 

The -hp is the signature effect of Energy transfer : you give your own life to hurt more enemies and dead enemy deal no damage.

 

I strongly suggest to people not liking this type of "ancestral" mechanic to look at attacks set as Dark / Rad and Staff for heal / regen.

 

Ty

I apologize for the delay in replying but I do not get to read the forums that much. Anyway, it appears my use of “double downer” had an implication I did not mean. It was meant only in relation to energy transfer. I really appreciate the changes made to the set. I enjoy testing it and agree with whoever stated the set performs better now than it did in its original incarnation. My reason for the request was to help with damage mitigation on tanks that do not have built in healing mechanics. It is my opinion that your response to play dark armor kind of proves my point. My suggestion would still have tanks taking damage from every other use of energy transfer because of the reduced recharge compared to the twenty second recharge of total focus. 

I mean no disrespect, but I’m not sure how you intended the “ancestral” comment, but if it was about the damage from energy transfer being an original trait, then it is my opinion that wouldn’t be an appropriate response for two reasons. The first being that scrappers and stalkers have a chance to have energy transfer heal if the attack crits. I don’t see anyone championing for the heal chance to be removed because it is a signature of the original power. Second, I see anyone requesting for the older, ancestral recharge rate of twenty seconds. If I misunderstood your meaning, then I apologize.

I would like to ask, judging by your comment, if your interest in energy melee is for the stalker or scrapper archetype and not for the tank, correct? Regrettably, I do not have the availability to read through all the posts.

[Azera]

On 11/2/2020 at 2:41 AM, BrandX said:

 

That would bypass the mechanic all the time.  TF > ET.  Since TF gives EF all the time, whether you hit or miss, people just wouldn't get a loss of life.

 

Not to mention, the "Take no loss of life" is from Scrapper's and Stalker's Criticals, nothing else, and they're not promised a critical (well, Stalker's I believe can be).

 

Brute's will get full Fury ET, while Scrappers and Stalkers only get a 28% Crit Bonus to damage.

 

Tanker's get more health to take the self damage of ET better than Scrappers and Stalkers too.  Do we give them more health, to make up for Tanker's taking the ET life drain better?

 

This aspect is what makes the difference between the ATs with these power sets.  If you really want the chance not to get hit by the ET loss of life, which has been happening this whole time, while Stalkers can already avoid on a critical on live, the best thing to do, would be to roll a Scrapper or Stalker or use a secondary you think is better setup to handle the loss of life.

It would be every other attack that bypasses the damage. From the little I’ve been able to test it, energy transfer recharges a lot faster than total focus. To be honest, I didn’t think about being able to always bypass the damage, but I see your point. I guess people would have the option to slow down their attack chain, but where’s the fun in that? 😊

Sincerely, I’m not asking for tanks to have a chance to heal like the stalkers or scrappers. I believe their version is pretty cool and am fine with it being unique to them as a part of the ability to crit. I was just trying to come up with a way for tanks to have a little help with the damage as well. Especially for the few sets that don’t have some type of healing ability.

[Wavicle]

At high levels all tanks have access to enough Regeneration buffs  from sets, IOs, Incarnate powers, etc, they should have no problem keeping their health up.

[Tsuko]

25 minutes ago, Azera said:

I apologize for the delay in replying but I do not get to read the forums that much. Anyway, it appears my use of “double downer” had an implication I did not mean. It was meant only in relation to energy transfer. I really appreciate the changes made to the set. I enjoy testing it and agree with whoever stated the set performs better now than it did in its original incarnation. My reason for the request was to help with damage mitigation on tanks that do not have built in healing mechanics. It is my opinion that your response to play dark armor kind of proves my point. My suggestion would still have tanks taking damage from every other use of energy transfer because of the reduced recharge compared to the twenty second recharge of total focus. 

I mean no disrespect, but I’m not sure how you intended the “ancestral” comment, but if it was about the damage from energy transfer being an original trait, then it is my opinion that wouldn’t be an appropriate response for two reasons. The first being that scrappers and stalkers have a chance to have energy transfer heal if the attack crits. I don’t see anyone championing for the heal chance to be removed because it is a signature of the original power. Second, I see anyone requesting for the older, ancestral recharge rate of twenty seconds. If I misunderstood your meaning, then I apologize.

I would like to ask, judging by your comment, if your interest in energy melee is for the stalker or scrapper archetype and not for the tank, correct? Regrettably, I do not have the availability to read through all the posts.

 

I playtested tons of interactions of EM on Shield / EM tanker in extreme conditions for more than 40 hours (i "found" animations glitches as the flying female with Total Focus and the flashing Combat jumping and tested interactions between all the epic / patrons powers with the Beta EM) :

 

Solo Imperious Task Force +4x8 no inspirations, no temporary powers, no Amplifiers and enemy buffed (+50% dmg / +50% accuracy) :

 

First mission in 12 minutes :

 

 

Solo Mo ITF with same ugly parameters (took ages because i choose to take only EM aoe powers to test them in intense gameplay) :

 

 

So yeah, ET loss of health can be tough for leveling builds, but in endgame +, it's no issues.

 

I choosed Shield defence cause it's a well known armor set without Endurance management powers and no self heal, for the very reason of ET nature and to check if the endurance drain was well balance.

 

I choosed Tanker cause if one class need to know if we can survive ET loss of health, it's this one and because tons of others good testers was already deep-testing the stalkers / scrappers.

 

And i must admit that as much i like EM stalkers, i was really not sold on EM scrappers and feeled them boring : now the crit balance of ET on scrapper solved this, we have the luck to have devs really patients and open to comments, constructive and polite.

 

Happy to read you have really tested EM 🙂 And if you still fear EM tankers are not good enough of left aside, i hope those screenshots witnessing dozen of hours of testings will give you faith !

Edited November 6, 2020 by Tsuko

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Azera said:

I apologize for the delay in replying but I do not get to read the forums that much. Anyway, it appears my use of “double downer” had an implication I did not mean. It was meant only in relation to energy transfer. I really appreciate the changes made to the set. I enjoy testing it and agree with whoever stated the set performs better now than it did in its original incarnation. My reason for the request was to help with damage mitigation on tanks that do not have built in healing mechanics. It is my opinion that your response to play dark armor kind of proves my point. My suggestion would still have tanks taking damage from every other use of energy transfer because of the reduced recharge compared to the twenty second recharge of total focus. 

I mean no disrespect, but I’m not sure how you intended the “ancestral” comment, but if it was about the damage from energy transfer being an original trait, then it is my opinion that wouldn’t be an appropriate response for two reasons. The first being that scrappers and stalkers have a chance to have energy transfer heal if the attack crits. I don’t see anyone championing for the heal chance to be removed because it is a signature of the original power. Second, I see anyone requesting for the older, ancestral recharge rate of twenty seconds. If I misunderstood your meaning, then I apologize.

I would like to ask, judging by your comment, if your interest in energy melee is for the stalker or scrapper archetype and not for the tank, correct? Regrettably, I do not have the availability to read through all the posts.

 

Oh, I promise you, Scrappers and Stalkers would gladly give up the heal for crits doing the damage they are supposed to be doing and not just the 28% 😛

[M3z]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Oh, I promise you, Scrappers and Stalkers would gladly give up the heal for crits doing the damage they are supposed to be doing and not just the 28% 😛

100% I would give up the healing for more damage any day.

[Gobbledigook]

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Oh, I promise you, Scrappers and Stalkers would gladly give up the heal for crits doing the damage they are supposed to be doing and not just the 28% 😛

Do you really think they would leave the damage of TF-ET untouched if they allowed full crits?

 

High damage none/low crit is more consistent damage. 

 

If you want full crit damage then the base damage would probably for balance sakes be lowered considerably and you won't even get a heal either.

 

I would quit whilst your'e ahead. EM is in a very good place.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Tsuko]

5 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Do you really think they would leave the damage of TF-ET untouched if they allowed full crits?

 

No way 🙂

 

5 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

High damage none/low crit is more consistent damage. 

 

Because this

 

5 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

If you want full crit damage then the base damage would probably for balance sakes be lowered considerably and you won't even get a heal either.

 

and this 🙂

 

5 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I would quit whilst your ahead. EM is in a very good place.

 

Exactly 🙂

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Do you really think they would leave the damage of TF-ET untouched if they allowed full crits?

 

High damage none/low crit is more consistent damage. 

 

If you want full crit damage then the base damage would probably for balance sakes be lowered considerably and you won't even get a heal either.

 

I would quit whilst your'e ahead. EM is in a very good place.

 

That wasn't what the reply was about.  The reply was to the fact that the poster thought Tankers should have a way to heal back the damage, because Scrappers and Stalkers have the ability.  However, the ability to heal it back, is due to not having full crit.  

 

Me personally, I'm fine were EM is.  Though, I still don't see why a high damage attack has to stop being a high damage attack, because of Criticals.  Crushing Uppercut does it's full crit.

[Wavicle]

38 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

That wasn't what the reply was about.  The reply was to the fact that the poster thought Tankers should have a way to heal back the damage, because Scrappers and Stalkers have the ability.  However, the ability to heal it back, is due to not having full crit.  

 

Me personally, I'm fine were EM is.  Though, I still don't see why a high damage attack has to stop being a high damage attack, because of Criticals.  Crushing Uppercut does it's full crit.

Crushing Uppercut costs endurance and has more than twice the recharge of ET.

[Vanden]

39 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Crushing Uppercut does it's full crit.

It does a full crit for its Combo Level 0 damage, which is significantly below where the standard damage formula would put a power with a 25s recharge, or even a 20s recharge.