Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

Luminara · October 30, 2020

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

It's noticeable that it can be quite the force multiplier.

8 of anything tends to be. But the set shouldn't be balanced around what 8 can do, which is what the problem has been historically. It was balanced around what 8 could do, and here we are now.

Sorry, Bopper, but that's not going to mollify anyone this time. Either the -res -ToHit does something more worthwhile than a piddling 0.32-0.86% net value on the single critter class where it's going to have any impact worth the use, or it goes in the trash and something more useful comes in.

Let's get it done right this time, so we don't have to wait another 15 years to address it. I don't want to have this conversation again while signing a Social Security check.

Bopper · October 30, 2020

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

8 of anything tends to be. But the set shouldn't be balanced around what 8 can do, which is what the problem has been historically. It was balanced around what 8 could do, and here we are now.

Sorry, Bopper, but that's not going to mollify anyone this time. Either the -res -ToHit does something more worthwhile than a piddling 0.32-0.86% net value on the single critter class where it's going to have any impact worth the use, or it goes in the trash and something more useful comes in.

Let's get it done right this time, so we don't have to wait another 15 years to address it. I don't want to have this conversation again while signing a Social Security check.

If you would like to see how balanced the set it, check out my analysis on page 9 of this thread.

As for the strength of the power, I don't know what you're missing. It makes your debuffs 40% stronger. To-Hit is a weird edge case that might need its own address as to why a minimum resistance is even given to Lieutenants and Bosses, but that's outside the scope of this thread and is a worthwhile topic to bring up in the Suggestions and Feedback forum. Let's also not forget it does more than just To-Hit resistance debuffing. But if you're worried Trick Arrow can't debuff an AV's To-Hit ...don't worry it can. The only thing that can match Trick Arrow's To-Hit debuffing ability of an AV is Dark Miasma, and they're neck and neck.

But let's get back on track with Acid Arrow, what else does it do? Well, 40% Resistance debuff to Regeneration. Is that useful? Maybe. You happen to have EMP Arrow that provides 500% Regeneration Debuff for 15s and another 500% for 45s. Let's compare the same +3 AV scenario for Regeneration, and for the sake of argument lets ignore the first 15s and just analyze the 500% that lasts the entire 45s:

+3 Level 54 AV, EMP Arrow, No Acid Arrow:

Resistance: 87%

Purple Patch: 0.65

Final Regen Debuff: 42.25%

+3 Level 54 AV, EMP Arrow, w/ Acid Arrow:

Resistance: 83.62%

Purple Patch: 0.65

Final Regen Debuff: 53.24%

For an AV, their Regen ticks are once every 15s. When debuffed it becomes:

w/o Acid Arrow: 15/(1-0.4225) = 25.97 seconds

w/ Acid Arrow: 15/(1-0.5324) = 32.08 seconds

Maybe that doesn't seem impressive. Perhaps delaying their regeneration ticks by an extra 23.5% isn't useful. Let's find out. Let's convert these numbers to HP/sec

Level 54 AV has 31,285.9 HP. At base regeneration the AV heals 104.2863 HP/sec.

For the 45s that EMP arrow is active without Acid Arrow, the numbers become: 60.2254 HP/sec

For the 45s that EMP arrow is active with Acid Arrow, the numbers become: 48.7643 HP/sec

That delta of 11.46 HP/sec multiplied out the full 45s is effectively 515.75 damage you were able to add because of Acid Arrow. Granted, this does not include the regeneration debuff contributions of your teammates which you also helped boost their performance by 26% (due to purple patch, 40% if even con).

But hey, for kicks, let's check out the 15s we ignored. Let's do the math right, for fun. We know our performance for the 15s-45s block, we can include the first 15s of the 1000% regeneration debuff.

w/o Acid Arrow:

Final Regen Debuff: 84.5%

w/ Acid Arrow:

Final Regen Debuff: 100%

Not much math involved with looking at Acid Arrow performance since we single handedly removed 15s of the AV's regeneration (1564.3 HP). As for the performance without Acid Arrow we get: 16.1644 HP/s

So let's complete the math, Acid Arrow provided a net gain of: 16.1644 x 15 + 11.4611 x 30 = 586.3 HP

That's useful. This is including purple patch, bypassing the target's resistances impact. Does it take 45s to play out? Sure. But it's a contribution you made with Acid Arrow.

But let's not forget whatelse Acid Arrow is. A Damage TAoE with Defense Debuff on a moderate recharge. It's a debuff power that is easily weaponized with procs. Damage and Resistance debuff. If you can't find use in that, I don't know what to tell you.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Bopper

Luminara · October 30, 2020

20 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I don't know what you're missing.

If you read what I wrote, you'll note that my objection is only with the -res -ToHit. And since you agree that it needs to be addressed, I'm not missing anything.

Let's get this fixed before the power goes live.

Bopper · October 30, 2020

Just now, Luminara said:

If you read what I wrote, you'll note that my objection is only with the -res -ToHit. And since you agree that it needs to be addressed, I'm not missing anything.

Let's get this fixed before the power goes live.

I am in agreement, but when you mentioned a set not being balanced because of a single attribute not being useful it came off as something else. I hope you can see the source of my confusion.

But let's press with what matters. The thing that needs to get fixed doesn't have to be AA, it is to address mobs that have an unnecessary minimum debuff resistance. AVs, I get (and it's not like we'd have an easy time reaching their current minimum anyways). But lesser ranked mobs should just have a default resistance level along with the standard -300% debuff resistance minimum that we all get. Let the current minimums be the default resistance and call it good.

Luminara · October 30, 2020

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The thing that needs to get fixed doesn't have to be AA, it is to address mobs that have an unnecessary minimum debuff resistance. AVs, I get (and it's not like we'd have an easy time reaching their current minimum anyways). But lesser ranked mobs should just have a default resistance level along with the standard -300% debuff resistance minimum that we all get. Let the current minimums be the default resistance and call it good.

The problem with that is, we don't know when or why the resistance was added. Legacy from when ToHit was the base for critter hit calculations, or a piece of the Purple Patch? Or something else that neither of us knows about? Was it added 17 years ago, or was it added when Benumb or Weaken were created? We need to know if it's linked with anything before changing it, because changing it might have unintended effects. The variety of interwoven mechanics which create the tapestry of the game is sizeable, and pulling threads without following them to their end tends to distort that tapestry. My instinct says leave it alone and find another debuff to replace the the ToHit debuff resistance debuff, to not yank that thread. Unless someone on the HC team has a tool which can trace it back to its source, when it was added, which other mechanics it interacts with, what else it might be doing, we don't know where removing those higher floors will lead.

Bopper · October 30, 2020

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

The problem with that is, we don't know when or why the resistance was added. Legacy from when ToHit was the base for critter hit calculations, or a piece of the Purple Patch? Or something else that neither of us knows about? Was it added 17 years ago, or was it added when Benumb or Weaken were created? We need to know if it's linked with anything before changing it, because changing it might have unintended effects. The variety of interwoven mechanics which create the tapestry of the game is sizeable, and pulling threads without following them to their end tends to distort that tapestry. My instinct says leave it alone and find another debuff to replace the the ToHit debuff resistance debuff, to not yank that thread. Unless someone on the HC team has a tool which can trace it back to its source, when it was added, which other mechanics it interacts with, what else it might be doing, we don't know where removing those higher floors will lead.

The dev team has a really good knowledge of the history of the game, so they probably can look into it. But honestly, it just feels like an oversight or a workaround for the times. Perhaps the devs had no way of setting a default debuff resistance that was trivial and decided a simple workaround was to set the minimum resistance to the default value. Since there was no tohit resistance debuff powers (I assume), it made sense. What I'm getting at, I trust HC's judgement on if they should change that seemingly arbitrary resistance minimum. If there is a reason for it, I hope they share it. It is certainly an oddity I'd love to know more about as it makes almost no sense to have. As I'm typing this, I'm sifting through def files trying to see why it might be... there are settings for AttribMin and AttribBase. There are StrengthMin and StrengthMax, there are ResistanceMin and ResistanceMax. I'm surprised there isn't a StrengthBase or a ResistanceBase. Even if it's all 0s for most things, you'd have something for default values that you may want to set so you don't have to adjust values for every villain class created.

Naraka · October 30, 2020

21 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

First round of testing endurance drain -resists from Acid Arrow completed.

I think it's the same situation as the -toHit resists, If a mob has endurance drain resists, they are so high, it's going to negate Acid Arrow's effect.

This is somewhat guess work as the Power Analyzer does not show endurance drain resistance.

Note, I am not talking about recovery resistance. AAs effect on recovery resistance shows nicely in the Power Analyzer.

Testing attempted:

Someone on discord was nice enough to point that Malta sappers have end drain resistance.

I used AE 1945. Not the best for sappers, but there are always a few on the first map.

I was using my TA/Elec/Mu defender with fully end slotted Power Sink and Short Circuit, end drain is at max power.

Test subject, con sapper held with Ice Arrow, so no end usage from it attacking me.
Two rounds of power sink fully slotted for end drain. Endurance stayed at 100%, ie no effect.
Acid Arrow applied. Endurance stayed at 100% with AA applied and two rounds of power sink.
Also, I waited for any -recovery to wear off.

If I cannot overcome the end drain resistance of a even con minion, then the end drain -resist is going to work on any resistant mobs.

Unless there is something special about sappers. Any other mob suggestions to test on?

Of course, against non-resist mobs, the Power Sink and Short Circuit can drain a 54 boss in one round.

Maybe 2-3 players with TA could debuff end drain resistance to matter, but it's not happening with just one player.

The changes are still awesome, just wanted to see if AAs -resists would allow mobs known for particular resistance could be effected.

Perhaps try a target not resistant to END drain then? While it's a decent test set up, it doesn't give definitive results. I wouldn't be so bold to say resistant target should be made fully vulnerable by default. I'm assuming you might be able to turn an EB who is barely tickled by drains effectively drainage but probably not all targets.

Carnifax · October 30, 2020

Acid + Flash doesn't seem to be working correctly. I'm not seeing the 30% additional ToHit one would expect.

Carnifax · October 30, 2020

EMP Arrow :

This is now a combination buff / debuff with a 16 target limit. Shouldn't this be 32, in line with Rad Armours Ground Zero (the only other power I know which is both a debuff & buff / heal). No sweat if not though as it seems pretty powerful.

However the buffs aren't being applied to the Caster, just everyone else which seems a bit mean.

Singy :

Me :

KaizenSoze · October 30, 2020

59 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Perhaps try a target not resistant to END drain then? While it's a decent test set up, it doesn't give definitive results. I wouldn't be so bold to say resistant target should be made fully vulnerable by default. I'm assuming you might be able to turn an EB who is barely tickled by drains effectively drainage but probably not all targets.

I tested on a number of non resistant targets. The -resist effect was not very obvious. Defenders drain very well by default.

I was hoping that it would make resistant mobs a little vulnerable. But the default end drain resistance for sappers and some static shielded EBs someone with nice enough put in an AE for me, is too high for one TA with Acid Arrow to dent. Now, 2-3 or more AAs on a target, oh yes.

I see all TA teams in the future. 🙂

Edited October 30, 2020 by KaizenSoze

Carnifax · October 30, 2020

Acid Arrow with 6 procs is a thing of joy. Mine is even lighting my oil slick for me now.

Coyote · October 30, 2020

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

If there is a reason for it, I hope they share it. It is certainly an oddity I'd love to know more about as it makes almost no sense to have.

I agree... yank the thread, follow it to its end. If it causes problems, it's easy to revert and change Acid Arrow. Better to find knots and untangle them, than to leave them to snarl things up in the future.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Coyote

Luminara · October 30, 2020

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Acid + Flash doesn't seem to be working correctly. I'm not seeing the 30% additional ToHit one would expect.

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

This is now a combination buff / debuff with a 16 target limit. Shouldn't this be 32, in line with Rad Armours Ground Zero (the only other power I know which is both a debuff & buff / heal). No sweat if not though as it seems pretty powerful.

However the buffs aren't being applied to the Caster, just everyone else which seems a bit mean.

The buff effect is from Faraday Cage, and the caster is excluded from the buff in this version. No reason given.

Carnifax · October 30, 2020

7 minutes ago, Luminara said:

The buff effect is from Faraday Cage, and the caster is excluded from the buff in this version. No reason given.

Does Faraday Cage exclude the caster too? I've never used it. If not then this seems wrong (it seems wrong anyway to be honest. Support buffs working for the team but not you is very 2005).

WindDemon21 · October 30, 2020

4 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Does Faraday Cage exclude the caster too? I've never used it. If not then this seems wrong (it seems wrong anyway to be honest. Support buffs working for the team but not you is very 2005).

Faraday works on the caster. And agreed it should work on the caster too, this is just dumb.

I actually suggested it make just that, a faraday cage.

Monos King · October 31, 2020

15 hours ago, Bopper said:

That certainly may not seem like much, but apply 14.44% To-Hit Debuff (resistible), which would be 54% enhancement in Flash Arrow, the end results are (I am ignoring the unresistible portion since it will not be impacted by what we're concerned with):

Actually, I think you have a point. The increases, even now, can be substantial...just like how -resistance currently works despite the purple patch and resistance that stands in its way as well. The one issue is we're only using those extremes to establish poles, and the team of TA's would actually never happen. Which, best case against a +3 54 AV is a ~200% increase to debuffs, which is awesome, but the much more likely event of 3 TA Users most (using defender values this time) is naturally only about 80%. We just aren't looking at the best case scenario because that's both unlikely, and devastating for the longevity of the team as well. Sure you tanked the AV to only 58% res, you'll still probably die on a team of TA. Using the mastermind values I was calculating with earlier, it's even less impressive, as it would be only 60%. Is 60% increase to debuffs on AVs really that helpful...not really sure yet. Benumbs and Howling Twilights will be good with or without Acid Arrow...Poison Darts not so much. The same with strong to-hit debuffs. Not to mention, many AVs are again, immune to certain debuffs, which would make the power useless in that instance. I'd like to see this be a power that makes the weaker abilities able to shine through. Reducing Acid Arrow to a mere -10% unresistable -debuff res (defenders) would see real excitement on a team of Trick Arrows (which would still likely be doomed anyway), and could be balanced by simply letting scale by level.

And, just for review, the to-hit floors on lieutenants, bosses, and elite bosses definitely needs to be checked, or else it ruins a huge part of the power.

ExeErdna · October 31, 2020

The first thing I like is honestly being able to use EMP Arrow, I normally skipped it due to that nasty -end debuff on me. I made a TA/FB/Mace Defender since I didn't feel like making a heavy proc monster since I wanted to focus on what the set could do kinda "raw". The cooldowns for sure feel a lot better so you can solo casually at +2/8 versus most end game mobs. Personally the most problematic has been Thorns because of how Death Mages resist most holds. Carnies and Malta haven't been that much a problem. Counsel is fodder. I kinda wanna see how the build works in a proper group I think I'm getting a bit of misinformation due to being buffed while solo. Casually it's great I'll make one for sure.

Jimmy · October 31, 2020

Build 2 - October 31st, 2020

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow (Focused Feedback Thread)

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

Entangling Arrow
- Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
- No longer has a -Recharge debuff
- Now applies a 30s -Res debuff
Flash Arrow
- Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
- -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
  - Half this debuff is now irresistible
Glue Arrow
- -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
- Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s
- This power is now location based
Ice Arrow
- Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
- Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff
Poison Gas Arrow
- -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
- -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
  - Half this debuff is now irresistible
Acid Arrow
- Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
- -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
  - This power still has a -25% defence debuff
- Now applies a heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
  - Halved in PvP
- Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
- Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
  - 20s in PvP
- This power has a new icon
Disruption Arrow
- Target cap increased from 10 to 16
- Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets
- -Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)
- Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once
- Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s
- Duration increased from 30s to 45s
- Fixed a timing issue
- Fixed a bug where it was buffing max end instead of debuffing it (oops)
- Fixed an issue that caused the arrow to fall to the floor if used in the air
Oil Slick Arrow
- Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
EMP Arrow
- Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
- No longer applies -recovery to the caster
- Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
- Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
- This power is now location based
- This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
  - 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
  - Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
  - Protection against status effects and knock back
  - This effect is now a persisting area rather than a one-off effect

WindDemon21 · October 31, 2020

51 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Build 2 - October 31st, 2020

Powerset Revamp: Trick Arrow (Focused Feedback Thread)

Trick Arrow has suffered with performance issues for a long time, primarily due to the strength of the debuffs against higher level enemies, but also due to redundancy between powers in the set. We've made a comprehensive suite of improvements, impacting almost every power in the set.

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

Entangling Arrow
Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7

No longer has a -Recharge debuff

Now applies a 30s -Res debuff

Flash Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

-ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
Half this debuff is now irresistible

Glue Arrow
-Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%

Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s

This power is now location based again

Ice Arrow
Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%

Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff

Poison Gas Arrow
-Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds

-Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
Half this debuff is now irresistible

Acid Arrow
Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)

-Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
This power still has a -25% defence debuff

Now applies a heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
Halved in PvP

Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)

Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
20s in PvP

This power has a new icon

Disruption Arrow
Target cap increased from 10 to 16

Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets

-Res debuff doubled (moved from Acid Arrow)

Only one Disruption Arrow can be maintained at once

Recharge decreased from 60s to 30s

Duration increased from 30s to 45s

Fixed a timing issue

Fixed a bug where it was buffing max end instead of debuffing it (oops)

Fixed an issue that caused the arrow to fall to the floor if used in the air

Oil Slick Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

EMP Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

No longer applies -recovery to the caster

Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)

Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%

This power is now location based

This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)

Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs

Protection against status effects and knock back

This effect is now a persisting area rather than a one-off effect

Woooooooooo! Shame we can't boost the resistance though on emp arrow if not to house the 3% defense ios to not have to get tough but happy enough if the rech cooled down enough to use every mob consistently. Will make a huge improvement for MMs with that knockback/mez protection.

Also going to WOOHOO again for glue arrow <3.

Keen · October 31, 2020

On 10/24/2020 at 8:38 AM, Jimmy said:

EMP Arrow

This power is now location based

This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)

Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs

Protection against status effects and knock back

This effect is now a persisting area rather than a one-off effect

Does this change mean that it now affects the caster as well?

Wavicle · October 31, 2020

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

EMP Arrow
Can now be slotted with Range enhancements

No longer applies -recovery to the caster

Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)

Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%

This power is now location based

This power now spawns an EMP Field at the target location that acts similarly to Electrical Affinity's Faraday Cage and provides:
15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)

Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs

Protection against status effects and knock back

This effect is now a persisting area rather than a one-off effect

@Jimmy Does this mean that instead being a two minute duration effect it only lasts as long as people stand in it? Because with a five minute recharge that would be pretty useless.

Wavicle · October 31, 2020

EMP still doesn't effect the caster. And as I said before, if the effect works the same as Faraday Cage then this power is still pretty crappy.

$oedipus_tex$ · October 31, 2020

I like the EMP change. Perfect for this set. This puts EMP Arrow in a great place IMO. It's both powerful and potentially skippable* depending on the player's desires.

(*Edit: I forgot about the -Regen in this power. It's not really skippable with that there. If you moved the -Regen to Poison Gas Arrow or Acid Arrow I think youd find the best possible balance equation.)

This update makes Trick Arrow one of the five Buff sets that can do AoE mezz breaking with a bubble, alongside Force Field, Sonic, Traps, and Electric Aff. It's less reliable than any of those which is where it should be. A good TA build can move the cage every 100 seconds or so. This in top of it being a 35ft radius Mag 3 Hold. Great power.

Unfortunately I cant get in to test because that hurricane that hit New Orleans retroactively stole my electricity with no reconnect date in sight.

Thabjs again for your continued work on this set! I cant wait to use it in game.

Edited October 31, 2020 by oedipus_tex

JayboH · October 31, 2020

He has said it should not affect the caster. It used to and wasn't supposed to so it was changed during closed alpha/beta.

In fact it used to spawn a cage on every enemy during development which was kind of funny to see, so it's been through a number of fixes/changes.

Edited October 31, 2020 by JayboH

Wavicle · October 31, 2020

3 minutes ago, JayboH said:

He has said it should not affect the caster. It used to and wasn't supposed to so it was changed during closed alpha/beta.

Wow. Well, that sucks. Bad change.

EDIT: I would say if it's not going to be a 2-minute perma buff then it should DEFINITELY effect the caster AND be usable while mezzed.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Wavicle

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