Holds vs other controls (Is Sleep better than Knockback)

[Gulbasaur]

4 hours ago, ZekeStenzland said:

I’m guessing this is also why confused freakshow that die, never self-rez confused. 

That's worth remembering, hmm. I did know you couldn't get Vengeance off the nemnems but you can confuse them. 

 

Anything with forcefields is useful. It's a good preventative measure against mobs that explode on Death. Ritki guardians either bubble you up or give a decent buff. Tsoo sorcerors, Cimeroran surgeons and Longbow wardens can all be decent healers. 

[merrypessimist]

12 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

How are you going to impose Knocked Up on robots and ghosts if you don't get into them?

With a turkey baster, like everyone else.

[tidge]

12 hours ago, Machariel said:

With the exception of confuse, generally speaking control powers don't help teams kill faster and can even slow down a team if used sloppily (the infamous 'AoE Immob Spammer') and IMO have kind of a weird interaction with the rest of the game.  What I mean in that having both a dominator and a tank on the team can be redundant - when every mob is confused there's little point in trying to get aggro and vice versa. 

The highlighted portion is where my thoughts go in the discussion. I tend to favor controls that keep the enemies close and clumped. My rough ranking ignoring 'situations' is:

1. (AoE) Confuse, and focused single-target Confuse on enemy 'support'. Seeing a large group like Knives of Artemis all Caltrops themselves is beautiful.
2. Knockdown (and to a lesser extent, Knockup).

After that, everything is situational. Single-target Holds are fine for hard targets... AoE Holds/Sleeps can be ok to 'prime' a distant group or after a group has been collected.

 

I'm not a fan of Immobilize: the enemy groups where it would be MOST useful tend to resist it, and it otherwise gets in the way of grouping enemies. Some of the more annoying enemy groups are ranged attackers/support, so immobilizing them doesn't slow them down as much as it slows me down.

 

Instead of Immobilize, I prefer Slow debuff (patches) with an added affect that disrupts enemy attack chains. Fear is similar in this respect from my PoV.

 

Knockback is in a special category: It can be a beautiful thing when used with skill... but even the most skilled user of KB attacks is going to eventually upset a teammate (typically playing a melee AT, or someone who places specific areas of effect).

 

I also like Stuns, but I don't love them, because the enemies don't really stay where I want them (I write this long after the days of stunned enemies madly staggering away at mach speed has been fixed). I really only appreciate a Stun when enough Magnitude stacks on a very hard target.

[Uun]

38 minutes ago, tidge said:

I'm not a fan of Immobilize: the enemy groups where it would be MOST useful tend to resist it, and it otherwise gets in the way of grouping enemies. Some of the more annoying enemy groups are ranged attackers/support, so immobilizing them doesn't slow them down as much as it slows me down.

I won't dispute that many players use immobilizes poorly. That said, if used after enemies are grouped, they can keep foes in AoEs. They can be used to keep enemies in KD patches (most immobilizes no longer prevent KD), rains, etc. AVs don't resist immobilizes and they can be used to prevent them from running.

[tidge]

And I won't dispute tossing an (AoE) Immobilize after grouping isn't a bad thing.

21 minutes ago, Uun said:

... AVs don't resist immobilizes and they can be used to prevent them from running.

The only AV where 'running' really bothers me is Diabolique.

 

I'm annoyed by more common enemies like Warwolves, Knives/Talons of Vengance and Teleporting Tsoo Sorcerers/Rikti Headmen for whom Immobilizes won't keep from madly dashing away from combat. I'd like to see 'Control' have a place in the endgame, but with enemies that essential ignore certain controls, I don't know what the path forward is.

 

(EDIT) Full disclosure: If Immobilize actually stops these I've never noticed. I take a Fortunata with Subdue through a lot of content and I have never noticed certain types being Immobilized (by Magnitude 3).

Edited October 27, 2020 by tidge

[Oubliette_Red]

On 10/26/2020 at 4:18 PM, KC4800 said:

Nemmies are confuse resistant silly.

Confuse resistant is not confuse-proof.

I've managed to confuse Scirocco during an STF, it was funny as hell to see him sic his dust devils on Ghost Widow. Granted that lead the Tank to lose aggro and nearly cause a team wipe.  <.<  This was back on Legacy before Incarnate system was released.

 

Many support enemy's pets are untargetable, but if you confuse the support enemy first, their summoned pets will be confused. My personal favourite are Rikti Comm Officers, which will spawn confused portals, that will then spawn an army of confused Rikti. But Longbow Engineers and their turrets or shield generators, Arachnos and their Arachnobot Disruptors, and pretty much anything else that summons pets. Likewise buffing enemies will buff you and your team while confused.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Oubliette_Red

[Uun]

4 minutes ago, tidge said:

The only AV where 'running' really bothers me is Diabolique.

Mary MacComber, and just about anyone else if you don't have a tank with taunt. Had to chase Rommie all over the map on an all-defender/corruptor ITF.

 

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

I'm annoyed by more common enemies like Warwolves, Knives/Talons of Vengance and Teleporting Tsoo Sorcerers/Rikti Headmen for whom Immobilizes don't keep from madly dashing away from combat. I'd like to see 'Control' have a place in the endgame, but with enemies that essential ignore certain controls, I don't know what the path forward is.

 

(EDIT) Full disclosure: If Immobilize actually stops these I've never noticed. I take a Fortunata with Subdue through a lot of content and I have never noticed certain types being Immobilized (by Magnitude 3).

Warwolves and Vahz zombies resist immobilize. Teleporters don't, but it doesn't prevent them teleporting. I'm fairly certain Knives/Talons can be immobilized.

[Oubliette_Red]

14 hours ago, Machariel said:

<snip>

 

With the exception of confuse, generally speaking <insert any power here> powers don't help teams kill faster and can even slow down a team if used sloppily (the infamous 'AoE Immob Spammer') and IMO have kind of a weird interaction with the rest of the game.  What I mean in that having both a dominator and a tank on the team can be redundant - when every mob is confused there's little point in trying to get aggro and vice versa.  It'd be nice to see more situations in the game where control powers and, mitigation in general were more useful at high levels. 

Just pointing out that sloppy use applies to pretty much any power in the game. 🙂

 

[tidge]

16 minutes ago, Uun said:

I'm fairly certain Knives/Talons can be immobilized.

My beef is specifically with the Knives who trigger Glorious Vengeance or Rallying Cry (typically as they begin to run/fly away!)

[Yomo Kimyata]

To @Troo's titular question, yes, Sleep is better than Knockback.  My case:

 

In solo play, Sleep plays the role of a cheap, quick-recharging, long-lasting hold.  Sleep a mob, defeat them one-by-one where they stand.  It's very easy to slot it so that it recharges well before the effect wears off.  Yes, you are restricted to using single-target attacks, but you can do so in near perfect safety.  Knockback is loads of fun, and buys you breathing room, but spreads your targets that you are going to need to track down and defeat sooner or later anyway.

 

In team play, (and I agree that many/most/all cc effects slow down team defeat speed), sleep is pretty harmless.  It does serve as a short-term immobilize (until they are woken), and if done too soon negatively impacts AoE attacks.  But otherwise, it has little effect other than temporarily slowing return fire.  Knockback, on the other hand, can really cheese some people off.

 

 

[KC4800]

1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Confuse resistant is not confuse-proof.

 

 

Correct. I didn't say that they were confuse proof. But knowing your enemies and what they are resistant to, AND the level to which they are resistant is an important part of playing this game. 

 

I personally don't bother trying to confuse a resistant foe. Just extends the battle for no good reason.

[srmalloy]

I think Stunned needs to be moved down, because stunning a mob doesn't immediately put them into the 'wandering around randomly in a daze' animation -- I've stunned mobs that immediately ran off, leaped onto the roof of a building, and disappeared, all in the 'stunned' pose. If Stunning a mob was fixed so that it aborted any movement that they had queued up (powers being animated should still go off unless interruptible), then it would rank where it is.

[Machariel]

2 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Just pointing out that sloppy use applies to pretty much any power in the game. 🙂

 

I think you misunderstood. Yes, only in the sense that it’s possible to make mistakes and aggro too many enemies. Sure. But that’s not what I was talking about. 
 

There’s very few powers that actually slow you down from being able to defeat the enemies you’ve aggroed.  The only ones that come to mind are phasing (by design) and then immobilized (locking them in spread out positions which weakens AoE) and knockback (similar.)

Edited October 27, 2020 by Machariel

[Troo]

I have learned a bit from theses posts. Thank you all, fascinating seeing the different thoughts.

[LiquidBandage]

Another factor that needs to be considered is Single Target vs AoE "controls". 

I have an Ice/Poison Corruptor that basically only uses his single target holds & debuffs against problematic enemies (Paragon Protector) or AVs because everything else dies so fast it is a waste of my time & enjoyment. So how does not using controls factor into the matrix of possibilities? 

Also, how do you evaluate a power like Bonfire? It actively disperses a group making it harder to kill everything, but temporarily CCs them via knockback. But if you slot a Knockback->Knockdown enhancement it becomes a massively useful AoE CC tool that does damage to boot. 

 

Then consider recharge, duration and (to a lesser degree) casting time. A big AoE hold is nice, but the recharge is significant enough that you won't be using it much (unless the group has a lot of recharge buffs). A big AoE immobilize is less 'lethal' when compared to the AoE hold, and it recharges much faster. Plus there are usually secondary effects associated (debuffs) coupled with the fact that they are immobilized (i.e. not running around to escape further AoE powers). If mobs last long enough that you can cast the power again (minimal or no debuff down time), how does that factor into the matrix of possibilities? 

 

Consider also what some CC does compared to others when it comes to survivability. An immobilize makes a mob use ranged unless you are in melee reach, so there is maybe some benefit. A stun makes them wobble around a bit while they do nothing, so maybe they don't fit perfectly into subsequent AoEs. A knock-back/down/up temporarily takes a mob out of the mix until they stand back up which means they aren't attacking anything during that time. If you knock them again while they are down or standing up it does not do anything (you need to wait for them to be fully upright first which gives them an opportunity to fire a power). Then look at what can be achieved by some powers that have a knockdown enhancement slotted in non-CC powers. A tank with a damage aura requires no additional effort (other than having the power toggled on) to possibly knock something down and thus not take damage from that source. Or a large AoE power that recharges relatively quickly lets you manage more than one group if they are packed in tightly. 

 

A lot of how you use CC and under what context makes evaluating/ranking CC powers.

[johnnysc]

I think slow is being underrated in these discussions, I find it very useful in keeping foes from attacking me as they spend their time slogging into melee or back into range position.  Paired with a damage patch and you disrupt their ability to attack quite a bit.

 

As far as status effects slowing down kill rates, I look at it this way: having yourself or team mates killed by the mobs slows things down quicker.  Not everyone plays a melee armor class.

[Johnny]

I'd rank Immobilize just under Hold, because:

1- When solo, you can keep mob(s) out-of-sight around corners, which renders it equivalent to a hold with lower end cost.

2- When grouped, you can take the alpha by AoE'ing a mob when its nearby mobs are out-of-sight, where most of them can't hit you (but your teammates can destroy them...yet not realize what you're doing).

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

To @Troo's titular question, yes, Sleep is better than Knockback.

 

This is true.  I've been kicked by a quarter horse.  She sent me flying almost 15'.  Sleep is definitely better than being knocked back.

[Li_Sensei]

So I take it nobody considers 'Taunted' to be a valid control type then?  Because a mob taunted by something that can survive the attention of that mob is going to do at most incidental damage to the rest of the team.  Admittedly 'Incidental damage' gets rather nasty when dealing with AV's, but Taunt only takes one application to take effect on the self same AV...

 

Also, on the subject of running AV's, Crimson.  From Shadow Spider's second arc, redside.  He rabbits to the mission exit at high speed once he's taken moderate damage, and if you can't glue him to the floor with enough immobilise, you are almost guaranteed to fail the mission.  And if you're trying the mission solo, that can be bad news.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, johnnysc said:

I think slow is being underrated in these discussions, I find it very useful in keeping foes from attacking me as they spend their time slogging into melee or back into range position.  Paired with a damage patch and you disrupt their ability to attack quite a bit.

 

Hmm. Not sure where I'd put slow - though it's usually not just slow but -rech as well. I do like it as a secondary effect on my Warshades (with pretty much every attack,) and I certainly don't mind it on my ice or poison using characters. Good for both offense and defense.

[Hew]

Slow (-rech) is insanely strong, as long as you can keep it going.

[Grouchybeast]

Knockback's the most fun.

Confuse is the funniest.

The rest are all fine.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[Gulbasaur]

10 hours ago, Li_Sensei said:

So I take it nobody considers 'Taunted' to be a valid control type then?  Because a mob taunted by something that can survive the attention of that mob is going to do at most incidental damage to the rest of the team.  Admittedly 'Incidental damage' gets rather nasty when dealing with AV's, but Taunt only takes one application to take effect on the self same AV...

I do consider it control, but I also think it's rather weak - AoE and cones are still an issue and the aggro cap means that it's easy to use very badly. In a few teams, I've seen "boss blindness" where a tank (usually a brute*) just rushed off leaving their sidekicked-up corruptor to deal with the two bosses they ignored because the aggro cap causes it to roll over to the teammates with the next highest threat, which is usually anyone with debuffs. As a control mechanism, I'd rate it somewhere between immobilising and sleep as it can work well when it works well but is totally useless if the person behind the keyboard doesn't care about what they're doing.

 

* I think people roll tankers because they want to tank and brutes because they want to DPS but don't mind holding aggro, so it's a mindset thing.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Johnny]

I'd say people are correct to not consider Taunts and aggro management as control mechanics. These are tanking mechanics that influence how mobs choose their targets (which affects your tactics), whereas control mechanics inhibit mob effectiveness (improving the overall team survivability).

[tidge]

17 hours ago, Li_Sensei said:

So I take it nobody considers 'Taunted' to be a valid control type then?  Because a mob taunted by something that can survive the attention of that mob is going to do at most incidental damage to the rest of the team. 

I don't consider Taunts to be control, although I take your point. The main differences from my PoV are:

• The attention from 'aggro' has a unique relationship between an enemy and a player, whereas a status effect is on the enemy.
• I can't see at a glance what the aggro situation is, whereas once an enemy has the status applied it is easy to see.
• There is an 'aggro cap' for a single player, but the ceiling on the number of status-controlled enemies is limited only by geography and the attributes/number of control powers available.