Controversial Opinion of Population Decline

[Starforge]

Get rid of PLing and you will see more people leave than if you leave it alone.

[DR_Mechano]

7 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Well, I'm in agreement on powerleveling. 

My viewpoint is that the end-game is something tacked onto the end of the game, so, if you power level to 50, you aren't actually playing "the game" - instead you are simply playing the stuff tacked onto the end of the game.

The game to me is about the character progression and development.

 

People can play how they want.

That's all well and good, but I think that players that want to explore the game through alting and actually playing the leveling part of the game (which I have obviously already called "the game") then they are more likely to spend more time playing City of Heroes rather than getting bored with it and looking for the next shiny object to run after.

Here's the thing though, you've got to remember this game was live for a while time. A lot of returning players, like myself, have already DONE all the content that's currently on offer, we did it back on live, it's not new and it's not engaging the same way it would be to a new player. We've done all the story arcs (and a LOT of the story arcs are just bland AF, especially the 10-30 bracket with a few good standouts). So players like myself are more likely to engage with content additions like new power sets, new costumes etc.

 

So far Homecoming has been really, really slow on adding in that sort of stuff. Sure it's nice focusing on balancing changes and the like but...balance changes don't exactly draw a big crowd the way something 'new' does. There was a lot of backend work to get the 64bit client running and we accept that as to why development of anything more substantial got delayed. Now the focus is on rebalancing everything with minor additions to mid-level content (the new storyarcs for example are something you'll play through a few times and then get bored of) and proliferation of powersets to new ATs (like Energy Melee being updated and given to Scrappers in the Issue 27 beta).

 

Now proliferation WILL get people back because it gives more excuse to make more alts.

 

Meanwhile other servers, which haven't done backend changes (which they'll have to do in the future in order to keep the servers running on modern hardware admittedly) HAVE added craptons of new stuff. Pet Customization, whole swathes of costume pieces, new powersets (admittedly a LOT of them are kind of janky with basic reused assets).

Edited November 3, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[EmmySky]

I power level occassionally.  I level 'naturally' occassionally.  I even have a few toons I leveled soley through street sweeping.  I build bases and I farm.  There is always something to do.  I have been playing here on Homecoming since August 8, 2019 and haven't missed a single day.  

 

I think people who leave, or take breaks, just don't have the level of........obsession that I do.  They may love the game just as much as I do, they may enjoy all the different aspects just as much as I do, but they aren't obsessed. 

 

I have long known that I am an obsessive person.  When I got into modern coding, I was coding like a mad woman, pages and pages of HTML and CSS, an entire variety of VRML that included a virtual hamster cage you could live in and explore.  When I got into collecting Barbies, I went full boar, I have about 400 in the other room.  You should see my household list for families and lots in The Sims 4.  Everything I enjoy and get really deep into, I get REALLY deep into.  Other people don't *shrug*.

 

Hell, some days I wanna skip work just to stay home and play, and that's after over a year of playing every single day.  There are people out there *gasp* that are able to play more than one game or do more than one hobby at a time.  There are some people who only enjoy one aspect over any other aspects of any given activity.  These people are allowed to exist *because we legally aren't allowed to weed them out* and they will come and go.  They may  join us in our game for a few days, weeks or  months, but then they will move on to greener pastures.  My pasture right here in Homecoming is as green as I need.  

 

I think blaming one single aspect, like power leveling, for the population fluctuation is a cop-out.  You have to understand human nature and human proclivities and then go on to be willing to accept them.  People will return when there is a new release, its the nature of the beast (as others have stated).  Personally, I am grateful for all the people I have met here, the ones still around as well as the ones who have moved on.  

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Get rid of PLing and you will see more people leave than if you leave it alone.

And you are most likely correct. There may not be anything that can be done to change population in between new content or powers being released. So there may be no solution. It could very well be Pandora's Box. Opening that box has at least in my opinion played a part in the decline of population, however, closing that box may very well have the same affect. Kind of a catch 22, right?

Edited November 3, 2020 by Solarverse
More typos...I'm good at that.

[iBot]

Maybe... probably... not.  This game at its core is about three things: costume, story, and people.  I've not come across many games since 2004 that have the level of character customization that this game has.  Sure a lot of games have preset armor pieces you can bolt on but not like this one.  You can play for months and not see another character with the same look as the one you just created.  The story is another piece that this game gets right.  Personally, I never bothered with the story lines or even read the story text that sets up the missions.  However, I know a lot of players that simply create new alts because they want to run through whatever story arcs they feel tell the story of the player in their head.  Finally the people.  For all the howling in gaming in general about "toxic" communities, this one has been solid.  Its not perfect but it is far more civil and friendly than any other game out there.  If not for the people to team with I would never set foot in the city again.

 

For me personally, this game was fun for about 3 days back on live.  Luckily I found a core group of people to play with that 16 years later I still look forward to logging in and slapping some mobs around a map with same people.  Sure they take breaks from time to time.  I've been in and out a few times.  However, I come back because it is fun to run through the same TF for the 100th time joking all the while about whatever amusing thought pops into our heads as we go along.  Even if the population of the server drops to a few dozen, so long as the people left are fun to chat with I'm good.

[Vulpoid]

Is it horrible that I don't care who stays and who goes?
As long as I am allowed to play, and anybody else that wants to... Ummm.... Who cares?
You want to go, go. We are not dependent on subscriptions.

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Vulpoid said:

Is it horrible that I don't care who stays and who goes?
As long as I am allowed to play, and anybody else that wants to... Ummm.... Who cares?
You want to go, go. We are not dependent on subscriptions.

I am dependent on other players though. I get 50% of my enjoyment from the game from playing with random players and interacting with them as I play. The most fun I have ever had in this game is from complete strangers that I have never met, pugging some random TF. Chances are I have teamed with 75% of you before and you had no idea it was me, and chances are we had a fricken blast....either that or you rolled your eyes at 90% of my bad jokes and laughed at 10% of them, lol.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Solarverse

[Vulpoid]

23 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I get 50% of my enjoyment from the game from playing with random players and interacting with them as I play.

Agreed! Heck, maybe 80%!
That being said... We will be here, and having fun.
What I don't understand is the weird desire for increasing the population. Or for offering incentives to retain the player base. Or doing anything or worrying about anything.
Let it go.
We are not a restaurant, we don't need to attract customers or retain those that get bored.
Everybody just relax and be groovy, man.

[The_Warpact]

I think possibly instead of coming up with what you could possibly think could be the decline, you should have asked why it is in decline.

 

I'll give my VG as a small example there are 6 of us total.

2 of us work together at the same international company who just went through a major machinery overhaul they both work in maintenance so are extremely busy.

1 of us works in construction they are at the end of season hence busier to get the season over with.

1 of us is a professional musician and this shutdown has decimated him, he now is working anything he can.

The final 2, we are both in management one in safety and me in life safety in healthcare. We have not had a break since this all started in fact this has added way more to our jobs.

 

Now besides our musical friend we have had no downtime, in fact we have been balls to the wall busy.

 

Life, specifically our jobs have ramped up because of what has happened. This time last year I was on all the time as where the others. Now we can get on once during the week and maybe during the weekend depending on how tired we are or what we have to get accomplished during our time off.

 

So I disagree its PL or something specifically in the game, I think its this cluster f*ck of a year and all the horrors it has released.

[UltraAlt]

7 minutes ago, Vulpoid said:

Everybody just relax and be groovy, man.

I strongly approve of this message.

[UltraAlt]

35 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

The most fun I have ever had in this game is from complete strangers that I have never met, pugging some random

I think I've won my PUGger for Life T-shirt a long time ago.

I love a rolling PUG with people going in and out of it, always having to adapt and learn to gel as the team transforms.

It makes me learn my powers better and learn how to appreciate how the other powers operate as part of the synergy.

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Again? I'm pretty sure this is my first time expressing my personal observations to Power Leveling. I mean, I might have said something before in somebody's thread at some point...but it's not like I sit around and just dump on PLing all of the time. But yes, like it or not, this is simply my opinion based on my observations.

 

I'd say that having to deal with the perpetual angst and clutching-of-proverbial-pearls from busybodies who would just *love* to dictate how everyone around them is allowed to play is also a threat to player satisfaction, and with it player retention.

 

To each their own, Solar.

Play the way you want. Leave the rest of us to do our own thing in peace. It's not your place to tell anyone else what they're allowed to like.

[VV]

It took 8 paragraphs to say that there has been little new content and people get bored doing the same thing?

[RubyRed]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Now, I know this is going to be controversial because I am picking on Power Leveling...that is a big no no with a lot of people...you just don't pick on power leveling. However, I believe this is having a negative impact on the game

 

...

And yes, there has been a sudden population explosion since the announcement of the new update, that was to be expected. However, I don't play this game for the updates and I don't play this game for the occasional but temporary population explosions because of them. They are here now and when they leave, it will be no different. And I know all of the reasons that people leave and come back...that does not help the overall health of the game. Games do not survive based on people coming back ONLY when there is something new to do. Games survive by having a healthy population in between those times.

So I have a lot of thoughts on this. It's always difficult to say exactly what causes a game to survive or not unless you have very precise first-hand data.* And every game, even when looking at a specific slice like MMOs, is very different and the audiences for them want different things. This being a private server that is not marketed to the general public further puts Homecoming into outlier territory which hasn't been studied very well.

 

On the first point, power leveling... it's more of a curve. There is a portion of the player base that only ever is interested in the endgame challenges, and they see leveling as "filler." It's just a speed bump to get to what they want to play. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different way of playing the game. I do a mix of both... sometimes I want to take my time and play through story arcs, and sometimes I go farm a character in AE. It just depends on what I'm in the mood for. Saying that one of those styles somehow hurts the game isn't really true. As I mentioned it's more of a curve... there's a sweet spot in there somewhere. If you make it too tedious to level and provide no shortcuts, the people who don't like leveling will leave. If you make far it too easy and you can basically just autocreate a max level, max spec'd character for free, then the people like the achievement and journey part will leave. You need something that appeals to both.

 

The second point, on fluctuating population based on content updates... unfortunately I have news for you. Live services games live or die on content. That influx of players when new content drops is usually what keeps your game alive, which is why most healthy games feature things like regular content patches every few months, to keep people engaged. The same is true of this server. You'll see the biggest population spikes when new content is available. People like things that are fresh and new. Now, there will be a steady population between content drops that helps sustain as well, but the longer between new content, the smaller that cohort becomes. The part of the population that will play a game no matter what, whether there's new things to play or not, is very very small compared to those who will come back for new content. Again, there's nothing particularly "wrong" with either set of players... they're just people who want different things out of the game and the time they spend playing it.

 

And that I think will be the biggest barrier to creating a population on Homecoming much larger than it is now. Content is expensive. New story arcs, new zones, new enemies, new power sets would be cool but are all very costly in terms of developer time. Small tweaks and revamps just doesn't invigorate most players and get them to return on a regular basis.

 

(*Sauce: I have over 10 years of AAA game development experience, some it even MMOs, and I've looked at the data first hand. Though I will not claim to be an expert in the business/analytics side of it.)

[UltraAlt]

13 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Leave the rest of us to do our own thing in peace. It's not your place to tell anyone else what they're allowed to like

They is stating their opinion just like you are.

People are allowed to do that here.

If you don't like it, you  don't have to read it or comment on it. No one is forcing  you to agree with what anyone says here.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, UltraAlt said:

They is stating their opinion just like you are.

People are allowed to do that here.

If you don't like it, you  don't have to read it or comment on it. No one is forcing  you to agree with what anyone says here.

I didn't say he wasn't entitled to his opinion. We all are.

I'm just saying that he shouldn't expect to be able to tell other people how to play.

[Purrfekshawn]

l can tell about Me personally - l stopped playing this game after Hyperkreator stopped working as it had been before Spring Costume Editor update. The Serverside rejection of costumes became harder, which crippled Hyperkreator functionality and make some costumes invalid and not being able to be updated. Can't even update power color options anymoa on these alts. Not every single alt suffered from this but plenty did.

 

And because l was hosting some teams, like Architect Entertainment team, this might have led to Chain Reaction, producing cascade population decline as a result. But l don't think that's the main and/or only reason, also the fact that game was stalling late spring/whole summer/early autumn of 2020 year (even assuming there's respectable reason for it), getting none of Updates, fixing NONE of Bugs made it happen. If something doesn't develop, it does degrade, that's the law of reality.

[UltraAlt]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm just saying that he shouldn't expect to be able to tell other people how to play.

I'm missing where that was said.

Can you quote it please?

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm just saying that he shouldn't expect to be able to tell other people how to play.

I don't think he was.

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm missing where that was said.

Can you quote it please?

The tone of the entire opening post is essentially "I think you're playing in a bad way and you should feel bad for doing it because you're killing the game".

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I didn't say he wasn't entitled to his opinion. We all are.

I'm just saying that he shouldn't expect to be able to tell other people how to play.

Well there seems to be a fine line between making an opinionated observation and telling people how to play. If you take a look at my post, I never once told people how to play. I didn't even say it was the wrong way to play. I simply said by my personal observations that PLing is having a negative impact on the population of the game and why I felt the original Devs fought so hard to prevent it. I guess it's almost impossible to say one without others perceiving it as meaning the other, since the observation in itself automatically implies the other, even if you don't mean for it to. However, let me be clear that I am not here to tell everyone how to play. If anything, I am hoping my thread gets people who power level to at least think about it and ask themselves, "Is the reason I got bored due to power leveling past low level content?"

Maybe...just maybe, a few will say yes and decide on their own to play low level content for a while to see if it retains their interest longer. The others will say no and continue to do what they always have done. But in no way am I saying that Power Leveling is the wrong way to play and in no way am I trying to tell people to stop. Also, as said earlier, I believe that even if the Devs decided to stop it all together, it would result in the same end result of players not sticking around.

So instead, I am just giving my opinion based observation and hoping people think about it before leaving the game due to it...if that is indeed why they are leaving the game.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

So instead, I am just giving my opinion based observation and hoping people think about it before leaving the game due to it...if that is indeed why they are leaving the game.

 

Fair enough... But isn't "wanting people to think about it" hoping to change or influence the way they play? 

[Lines]

12 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

The tone of the entire opening post is essentially "I think you're playing in a bad way and you should feel bad for doing it because you're killing the game".

I took the tone as "the state of the game leads to players burning out."

 

I disagree - I think players are responsible for their own pacing and burnout - but I see the point. I don't think it's an accusation.

 

But I can see why you'd read it the way you did too. I think this is one of those cases where it's best to assume best intentions of posters.

 

Edit: you ninja'd me.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Lines

[Solarverse]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

 

Fair enough... But isn't "wanting people to think about it" hoping to change or influence the way they play? 

Perhaps, but only if the reason they are leaving is due to the way they play.

For an example, if I was getting bored of the game and was thinking about leaving, would it be so bad if one of my SG mates tried to influence the way I play and talk me in to Power Leveling to see i that helps me retain my interest in the game? I don't think so, I think that would be a positive thing. They weren't telling me my way was the wrong way, they simply suggested that maybe the reason I am leaving the game is due to how I currently play the game and suggest try playing the game in a different way.

The thing that I saw, is that they were PLing to 50, then playing the same end game content every night. The same limited Task Forces over and over and over. That is REALLY limiting your options and yes, for me, the same missions over and over would get old really fast. However, if I can convince people to play the early level content as they level, they may find a whole new reason to stay. Even the old missions that they have done a billion times during live can be nostalgic if you play them now. Just look at Frostfire. I have zero issues building teams for Frostfire...and I know we have ALL played that mission a billion times, lol...yet people still love running it. Kind of the same logic if you get what I'm saying.

[Coyotedancer]

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. 

 

I would find an SG-mate trying to weedle me into staying after I felt I was done with the game more than a little annoying. I'd probably tell them to mind their own business and to stop pestering me over how I chose to spend (or not spend-) my limited play time.