So Dark Melee......

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

 

 From very early. If you had used the official channels more you would know this.

 

 

That is certainly a problem I have. I don't use the Forums enough.

[Gobbledigook]

Are you guys the Illuminati? 🤪

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Can you point to any examples of this?

 

1. "Dark melee feedback was ignored." No it wasn't, and the updated version of Touch of Fear went through a few different implementations before it even made it to open beta. "My complaints aren't being addressed" != "my feedback is being ignored."
2. The fast travel popmenu and adjustments to the new long range teleport power are changes that were directly influenced by feedback.

Change My to Our it is more accurate. And feedback on half of a discussion.

 

Whippitydoo.

[Gobbledigook]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

We're beta testers.

I thought I was one of those also.

 

The official beta testers?or the elite beta testers? 

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Here's a bit of insight into the last year and a half for me at least: I have generally been extremely skeptical of the HC team's decision-making and game-balancing skills and would not go out of my way to publicly defend them. I am still not a fan of the way they've dealt with changes in the past but I've been providing pretty constant feedback on changes since at least last fall and seeing the way I27P1's process has gone has restored a bit of my faith/confidence in them. There were quite a few early changes that never saw the light of day on open beta because they were, to put it mildly, ridiculous and were rightly called out as such.

 

I am never a fan of nerfs and am still not a fan "gimmicks" being added to powersets a la Energy Focus, but overall the changes being made with I27P1 are at least reasonable.

To you at least 😏

 

Well it has been fun but I see how things are and will just leave it at that.  😉

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

I have generally been extremely skeptical of the HC team's decision-making and game-balancing skills and would not go out of my way to publicly defend them. I am still not a fan of the way they've dealt with changes in the past but I've been providing pretty constant feedback on changes since at least last fall and seeing the way I27P1's process has gone has restored a bit of my faith/confidence in them. There were quite a few early changes that never saw the light of day on open beta because they were, to put it mildly, ridiculous and were rightly called out as such.

Question: It sounds like you were more involved earlier this go around than maybe in the past. Did that in anyway impact your understanding and acceptance of the changes?

[Gobbledigook]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Again, what examples are you talking about? You have yet to cite actual examples.

I don't need to defend myself to you or do I? Are you a bully?

 

Educate yourself with examples.

[Lines]

Gobbledegook, you're welcome to join the discord. It's not an exclusive club.

 

I'm sure the visibility and accessibility of the discord could be addressed in future. But since 100 people joined over the course of the last few weeks, I don't think anyone thought its visibility was a problem.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Ah yes, the "educate yourself" reply to "cite your sources." That's not how burden of proof works, by the way: "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," or "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

What was your question again? 🤔

[Gobbledigook]

3 minutes ago, Lines said:

Gobbledegook, you're welcome to join the discord. It's not an exclusive club.

 

I'm sure the visibility and accessibility of the discord could be addressed in future. But since 100 people joined over the course of the last few weeks, I don't think anyone thought its visibility was a problem.

Thank you for that @Lines 😊

 

A nice response for a change is most welcome.

[Gobbledigook]

8 minutes ago, macskull said:

Ah yes, the "educate yourself" reply to "cite your sources." That's not how burden of proof works, by the way: "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," or "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." It's clear to me at this point that you are no longer - if you have ever been - making an argument in good faith. Enjoy Issue 27 and don't forget to thank your local Illuminati chapter.

What argument is this you speaketh of?

Edited November 22, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[AerialAssault]

If Devs never listen to feedback, how come Sprint (and the prestige sprints) are getting No FX & colour options? Or the last Ward mission being re-designed to be less punishing?

 

On transparency: It's common (and good) practice not to reveal something until you are sure it's in an actual, releasable state. Entering full & open discussions is just inviting a quagmire of an argument. Hence why the Feedback Threads are heavily curated, it's in nobodies interest to engage in a constant back & forth, and I feel like "shouting down the Devs until we get what we want" is not indicative of a friendly & healthy community.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

If Devs never listen to feedback, how come Sprint (and the prestige sprints) are getting No FX & colour options? Or the last Ward mission being re-designed to be less punishing?

 

On transparency: It's common (and good) practice not to reveal something until you are sure it's in an actual, releasable state. Entering full & open discussions is just inviting a quagmire of an argument. Hence why the Feedback Threads are heavily curated, it's in nobodies interest to engage in a constant back & forth, and I feel like "shouting down the Devs until we get what we want" is not indicative of a friendly & healthy community.

Never? Is that your words??

[America's Angel]

The devs are insanely open to feedback. Y'all just need to be smarter about how you give it:

• Repeating the same argument for 10+ pages is a bad strategy.
• Calling the devs out is a bad strategy.
• Being antagonistic is a bad strategy.
• Debating the patch notes instead of checking what's in the patch notes actually works is a bad strategy.
• Whining is a bad strategy.

Actually take a moment and ask yourself...what do you want? Do you want the devs to be receptive to what you say? Or do you just want to feel better by ranting your feelings online?
 

Be smart. Think about your end goal.

 

This is why there's been so many PVP changes. Traditionally PVPers have been largely ignored the dev team, so when the devs offered to make some changes for us, we were happy to play nice. Sure, there's been a couple changes we weren't too impressed with. (Tactical Arrow losing its movement control being #1.) But we didn't argue or fight against them. We just shrugged and went along with it. Because we realized whining would just get us ignored, whereas accepting defeat, and moving on to the next thing, might result in more positive changes.

The result? The devs listened to A LOT of our feedback. And now we have a pile of PVP changes so amazing that Castle is probably crying in his sleep and wondering why.

So my feedback to the PVEers who have spent these last few months arguing in Focused Feedback threads for post after post, often to the point where GMs have had to delete your posts or intervene asking you to calm down, is this:

Be smart. Think about your end goal.

[Gobbledigook]

12 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

The devs are insanely open to feedback. Y'all just need to be smarter about how you give it:

• Repeating the same argument for 10+ pages is a bad strategy.
• Calling the devs out is a bad strategy.
• Being antagonistic is a bad strategy.
• Debating the patch notes instead of checking what's in the patch notes actually works is a bad strategy.
• Whining is a bad strategy.

Actually take a moment and ask yourself...what do you want? Do you want the devs to be receptive to what you say? Or do you just want to feel better by ranting your feelings online?
 

Be smart. Think about your end goal.

 

This is why there's been so many PVP changes. Traditionally PVPers have been largely ignored the dev team, so when the devs offered to make some changes for us, we were happy to play nice. Sure, there's been a couple changes we weren't too impressed with. (Tactical Arrow losing its movement control being #1.) But we didn't argue or fight against them. We just shrugged and went along with it. Because we realized whining would just get us ignored, whereas accepting defeat, and moving on to the next thing, might result in more positive changes.

The result? The devs listened to A LOT of our feedback. And now we have a pile of PVP changes so amazing that Castle is probably crying in his sleep and wondering why.

So my feedback to the PVEers who have spent these last few months arguing in Focused Feedback threads for post after post, often to the point where GMs have had to delete your posts or intervene asking you to calm down, is this:

Be smart. Think about your end goal.

I agree. I am not quite sure how that is relevant to me though if it was meant for me at all.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, ThrillMill said:

I'm sorry for being ignorant. Did they Nerf Shadow Maul after extending its Arc?  

Target cap went down on SM, but they have ToF now.

 

It kinda sucks, but it's still really good.

[CrudeVileTerror]

uh . . . 

I left to do some grocery shopping when there was a message in this thread that was asking me to clarify some things in my previous post.  But now that other user's message is missing (and seems like quite a bit of pruning has taken place).  That particular message didn't -seem- off-topic or negative in tone, so I'll try to address what I think I remember it asking from me.

But if this -is- steering in to the realm of off-topic'ness, I apologize.  I realize the title of this thread is "Dark Melee," but overall it seems the topic for discussion here is feedback regarding the feedback process and communication with Homecoming, so . . . 

 

When I used the term "Bad Actors," I was thinking of it more in terms of a generality for posts that foment hostility, rather than the individual people who write those posts.  I don't intend to call out any one in particular.  I just meant to state that sometimes people will do or say things which ultimately undermine the value of a topic, and that sometimes that conduct even appears to be intentional.

 

Which circles back to the other point I wanted to clarify:  Moderation.

The GMs are working overtime to try and keep things civil and productive.  However, as evidenced by this very thread, sometimes good and valid criticisms get caught in the crossfire.

I don't know what the standard operating procedure is in those situations, so if what I'm about to suggest is already occurring, then . . . coolbeans!

But with the number of posts that disappear, I am left to wonder if the users who made those posts are getting the precious feedback they need as to what prompted the removal.  Are those community members being given any opportunity to pivot the infracting behaviour and edit the post?  Does the Invision forum software even allow for that level of granularity for moderation purposes? 

After all, we in the community could use Dev/GM feedback to improve too, yes?

 

So, if the tools aren't in place to facilitate that yet, but they -could- be developed and activated, then maybe that would be a good step in the direction of helping the rest of us to meet the Devs halfway in this process.

 

Alternatively, if we could reinforce productive behaviour with incentives, that might also yield positive results.  Granted, with the concerns of favouritism and elitism that have been raised, I could see some potential downsides with accusations being levelled against what some users may perceive as unfair treatment.

Some people might suggest that these incentives be rewarded in private then.  However, keeping that secret doesn't do any good to set a positive example, and the accusation of preferential treatment will become even MORE severe when/if a secret reward gets revealed.

 

It is a rather unfortunate state of affairs when positive reinforcement could inadvertently yield very negative results on the larger scale.  Given the freshness of wounds regarding years of secrecy, I most certainly empathize with that sense of pain and betrayal some community members feel.  And given the context of that, I'd advise the Homecoming Team to be especially careful with conducting activities outside of scrutiny.  As some call it:  "Secrets that will eventually be revealed."  The optics from that sort of thing just make for needless drama, and further feed in to the conspiracy theory narratives.

The Devs should not take responsibility for the paranoia of others, but I do think they could at least do some things differently that will have the added benefit of mitigating and reducing that paranoia.

 

And, at the risk of destabilizing it, the Forum Reputation system -does- provide somewhat of a window in to the collective values the community carry on a macro-level.  But it's an imprecise system which can be undermined with little effort.  Obviously it shouldn't be relied upon for anything truly meaningful, but it does at least offer a tiny bit of incentive.   Perhaps some modifications to it can be explored to increase the impact it carries.  Perhaps some Dev-only Reactions could be added, so the Devs have a passive tool to signal to community members when certain feedback has been received.

Though probably not, since the whole Reputation system definitely has a LOT of detractors.   It's just a thought.  Maybe someone can spin it in to something better.

[Apparition]

7 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

The use of discord is an entirely different bag of snakes.  I suspect the unpopular nature of my point of view on feedback has already put me on thin ice, if not already under the frozen lake, in the eyes of some members of the community here . . . so I won't be getting up on a soapbox for that particular topic right now.  But I would at least like to encourage everyone to consider the practical value which these forums offer as a direct solution to communication.  They're incredibly robust and have a LOT to offer in terms of convenience and reaching other players, and without the spectre of third-party.  The Clubs feature is particularly underutilized.

 

Unfortunately, the days of people using forums are at an end.  I say this as someone who has been using forums since the days of Usenet and Fidonet in the '90s.  The vast majority of people under age 35 or so will not touch forums with a ten foot pole.  Someone described it to me as akin to someone under 40 trying to use a rotary telephone.  They just don't understand it.  Discord on the other hand, they get and use.  A lot.

 

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

It is a rather unfortunate state of affairs when positive reinforcement could inadvertently yield very negative results on the larger scale.  Given the freshness of wounds regarding years of secrecy, I most certainly empathize with that sense of pain and betrayal some community members feel.  And given the context of that, I'd advise the Homecoming Team to be especially careful with conducting activities outside of scrutiny.  As some call it:  "Secrets that will eventually be revealed."  The optics from that sort of thing just make for needless drama, and further feed in to the conspiracy theory narratives.

The Devs should not take responsibility for the paranoia of others, but I do think they could at least do some things differently that will have the added benefit of mitigating and reducing that paranoia.

VileTerror. I often see your profound efforts to assist the devs and address community concerns. You are probably one of the most involved players, and I am certain you're appreciated greatly. But I imagine this feedback is too general to be helpful to anyone. 

 

You are essentially stating the developers should "do what is good because otherwise people will be upset". This isn't anything they don't know. Because of those factors you noted, and so that they can be closest to legitimate, there is a process. Not everyone can be involved in every step. Those that are paranoid will continue to be paranoid because they don't trust the process, but they don't trust the process because they are paranoid. It is an interesting statement to the profoundness of the accessibility of the developers that the community can even gain insight into more internal activities to complain about to begin with, something that really doesn't exist in other games, and very telling to those same developers that there is still so much resentment. The developers have been so forthcoming, that if there is any withheld information at all, regardless of purpose, it is clandestine. Only a mentality shift will fix that.

 

There aren't any rewards for "good behavior" that could ever be meaningful or even appropriate in that they wouldn't seem child tailored. People should behave courteously, or be removed. To that end, I do agree with letting people know why posts have been moderated. There should be a reactionesque notification immediately with reason, that pops up on a new tab next to messages and notifications called Moderation, and there the removed comment and reason should be documented. Hidden posts as well. This would do little to alleviate peoples disdain of being moderated, because obviously 90% of people think it wasn't in violation of rules (hence posting it), but it would offer some of that ever cherished transparency. But there is no place for anyone who assumes they are right, and ignores the evidence of the other side. 

 

Someone who believes there is or were a "secret club" answer me this, I am violently curious. What purpose would there even be to this structure on a video game? Do you believe there to be an exclusive sect where a few players tailor the game to their interests? How would this help the HC team? I do not understand. 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Monos King
Punctuation

[CrudeVileTerror]

Fair point on calling it too general to be helpful.  Still, in my experience, sometimes it helps to state the supposedly obvious just for the sake of completeness, and to give others the opportunity to address it if it's based on faulty assumptions.

I do appreciate having my own preconceptions borne of ignorance tackled.  Preferably in a polite way, when possible.

 

I was actually toying with making a little series of representative illustrations for exactly that sort of question you pose at the end there, @Monos King.   While such drawings wouldn't necessarily be accurate, I think it might at least demonstrate the potential optics of the situations from these other perspectives, or at least my own narrow reading of them.

Lemme see what I can draft up.  It won't be a quick thing for me to do.

 

 

And before I pop off to do that, I do want to say that discord isn't the only alternative to the forums.  There are a number of less popular, but significantly more stable and secure applications which the Homecoming Team could use for official purposes.
And I do want to stress; I'm not saying they should drop discord entirely.  I'm fine with the Team using it as a vector for feedback, or with other players using it to support other initiatives.  I'm chiefly concerned with it being a necessary component in the Team's recruitment, training, and development practices.  THAT is where the T.o.U. issue is most severe.  

 

Then, on a personal level, I think it would also be nice for people to accept that it does represent a barrier to entry, even if their own experiences with it were smooth.  I think some empathy there would do us all some good, and maybe encourage utilization of more open means of communication for peripheral City community endeavours. 

BUT that's getting quite off-topic at this point, so I'll stop there on that particular subject.

[ninja surprise]

On 11/21/2020 at 12:00 PM, Gobbledegook said:

Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored.

 

Well, yeah. When you start with a published game and a tiny group of hardcore fans keeping it running in their spare time and making a few mods for quality of life, balance, and bug fixes while trying to slip in a few big improvements without ruining what people already love and are accustomed to or pissing off some very emotional players... it's a big balancing act.

 

I've always figured the "Suggestions and Feedback" were "Pipe dreams with barely a snowball's chance of ever being implemented" and if one was, hey that's great. Like, I think an easy one to implement is "Shield Defense, no FX" because it just deletes the shield and uses all the normal animations for attacks, but it'll probably never get implemented.

 

But you know what? You can get the code and spin up your own version of the game and make all the changes you want!

[sx978465168]

🦢

[Boudicia.Dark]

Is this thread about the nerf to shadow maul or is it about who can talk to who where and who is ignoring who? I ask because I want to talk about the nerf to shadow maul because cutting the cap in half is a nerf. Also, trying to force me to respec into touch of fear is NEVER going to make me take touch of fear. I dont like it, I dont want it, it is not my playstyle and it isnt even relevant to the nerf to shadow maul. I have played Boudicia Dark, a dark/dark scrapper for a total now of 8ish years. She was the first character I ever rolled. I figured out how to work that shadow maul cone and have loved it ever since. It was recently made even better with the widening of the cone. Why the hell did you leave that (comically....stupidly) gigantic cone and yet only let it hit 5 targets. That just....I mean....wtf.

On 11/22/2020 at 3:40 PM, ScarySai said:

Target cap went down on SM, but they have ToF now.

 

It kinda sucks, but it's still really good.

More than just kinda sucks, more like really, utterly, completely sucks if you choose not to use touch of fear which I will not use. It does NOT FIT my 8 years of play with this character.

[Solarverse]

On 11/21/2020 at 5:23 PM, CrudeVileTerror said:

The feedback process is very difficult and confusing when it's a one-way street.

The Devs say that they read all the feedback and posts.  Ok.

Though without engagement, it's a bit hard to grasp that as true sometimes.

And when a particular change seems to be moving forward despite protests, it becomes especially difficult and confusing.

 

For example; the changes to the /enterbase had a pretty good demonstration of the Devs listening to the feedback.

From what I could see (and, acknowledging a very limited point of view that I have), the changes to Touch of Fear did -not- seem to have much communication in regard to the feedback.

 

As ever, the Devs are human.  They're volunteers.  They have limited time.

It would just be more helpful to know what their intentions are to provide meaningful feedback.

So I completely understand why players are rather upset with the Touch of Fear changes right now.

Agreed. Not only that, but seriously, we can't ever agree on anything. Like one really great will come out, then half the people who post on that idea hates the idea. When the Devs see us arguing over every and any little change proposed, I am sure that puts them in a position they are uncomfortable being in, because they know that no matter how they change a powerset, there will always be players who hate the change and will cry foul on that change. Hell, we can't even get everyone to agree that the powerset needs some love, much less agree on how to change that.

[Solarverse]

For me personally, they should have just put it back the way it was during i5 and added a +Recharge buff to Death Shroud (+Recovery +Regen for the Blaster version to get away from that damn target click ranged fear b.s.) and called it a day.

I truly loved the Teleport version of the Dark Consumption idea that they were tossing around, but they didn't do that because of Stalkers being unable to get that power, even though they could have just added a proc system to turn the Stalker version of Midnight Grasp into an AoE to make up for that to allow for more diversity in the Stalker set and then called it a day.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Solarverse