Zone Travel Updates in Issue 27

[Faultline]

13 minutes ago, NewXToa said:

I don't think this is consistent with the changes made in this patch, considering:

1. Ouro is now accessible from level 1, which grants level 1 characters access to zones like Founder's Falls, which they certainly aren't equipped to handle.

2. Base hubs allow access to all zones, see point number 1.

Which is exactly why LRT is not a requirement and can be put behind an unlock; those things you are listed are intended to be the low-effort, less-convenient option. It's kind of frustrating how posts like this get too close to realizing that "oh, LRT has a requirement to get because there are other options" and instead decide to frame it as "LRT is more difficult to get than the other options, therefore it's inconsistent". No. It's intended design. There's a progression here that players are trying to skip, because they got used to skipping all progression when it comes to travel.

[Faultline]

34 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

why there need to be so many different powers to achieve the same thing

Because they don't, no matter how many times you repeat the same misinformation. You can just use them all to enable /ebfp if you want to always use a travel hub base, but that's not what the powers do by default, that is just a choice you have available.

 

• Long Range Teleporter: direct teleport to zones
• Base Transporter: direct teleport supergroup bases for self.
• Supergroup Base: persistent portal in-zone that can be used by anyone.

 

The Pocket D VIP Pass was folded into LRT, the various market teleporters are gone. We removed different powers that did the same thing. The only powers that do "the same thing" in the Fast Travel menu are the Day Job ones, and the reason for those is that it's just how the Day Job system works, many of its rewards are redundant copies of powers you can get elsewhere. Which you are free to ignore.

 

34 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

why the cool downs need to be so long, why the costs need to be so high, etc. 

The "long" cooldowns are shorter than what the VIP Pass or Base Transporter used to be. The /ebfp cooldown can be made shorter by purchasing the various options that let you use it up to three times every 10 minutes. The "high costs" are a power that is free, a power that is 1m and a power that is 10m. You get to choose how much you are wiling to spend on the convenience. Your questions are the equivalent to "why is the sky purple". It isn't, you are just wearing pink-colored glasses.

 

34 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

This is why you are facing such backlash and dissatisfaction over the change.

No, we're facing it because we decided to let the /ebfp command stay active until we had a way to limit its use sensibly instead of just taking it away and saying "no, you can't have this, wait until we come up with a way to do it that follows sane game design rules". As a result, you are using /ebfp instant-cast, zero-cooldown, no-cost as a baseline for what travel should be like. This is not a valid baseline, and no feedback that starts with that premise is useful.

[Arli]

1 hour ago, NewXToa said:

It is a false equivalency. To use a hyperbolical example ("hyperbolical" looks weird... an exaggerated example), recreational marijuana use is illegal in many states. Murder also tends to be illegal in most places. Saying that wanting legal marijuana use is like wanting legal murder is not a productive argument. Similarly, saying that wanting something similar to /ebfp is like wanting access to /completemission is not a good comparison.

I agree with Faultline - it is not a false equivalency. Your hyperbolic example doesn't necessarily prevent the fact that the /ebfp command could have been used by players to access instances and missions they were not invited to; which was especially profound if an unruly player was kicked from an instance and used that command to return anyway.

 

To make up for the loss of that "always available" macro, the HC team offered an alternative, with the option to buy another base transport power from the P2W vendor. Yes, there are cooldowns associated with it, but when you consider all of the abilities we now have access to from level 1 in regards to traveling to other zones, it is not often that you might find yourself unable to teleport from a zone - not to mention the ability of still being able to use accessible TF/SF/trial contacts as a means for transporting to specific zones (under specific conditions, but that option still does not have a cooldown).

 

Initially, the cooldowns used to be a ton longer. You used to need to have accolades for the zones you wanted access to via LRT. It takes maybe five minutes to unlock the exploration accolade on one character if you choose to complete it for Atlas Park. If you do that for four hours for fifty characters; you're also getting a total of 250 merits out of it as well as access to LRT for all those characters. Seems like a more productive option over paying for access, but suggesting initial access to LRT (with no zones unlocked unless exploration badges are discovered) is something I'd consider a fair request.

[Coyotedancer]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

LRT is literally a 5 minute unlock power. No matter how many times you say it, it is still NOT A REQUIREMENT. You are not being forced to do anything. 

To be fair, Glacier... While getting the accolade unlock itself may be quick if you know where the Atlas badges are, getting an exploration badge from each of the potential destinations in order to make that accolade power actually useful is absolutely NOT something that can be done in five minutes. I think we do need to be honest about that. 

[Wavicle]

On 11/25/2020 at 11:15 PM, Mageman said:

You say that a level 1 can now get to Ouro, but how?

TUNNEL to Night Ward, enter Mansion to get Midnighter Badge. Go back to Atlas, take train to Steel Canyon. Go to University, enter Midnight Club. Go to Cimerora. You are then awarded Entrusted with the Secret, at level 1, with no help. And no base necessary.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Wavicle

[@Ghost]

4 hours ago, Faultline said:

As a result, you are using /ebfp instant-cast, zero-cooldown, no-cost as a baseline for what travel should be like.

I think I asked this before and it got glossed over, but I'm genuinely curious what exactly is the "valid" baseline for travel as you're envisioning it? How's that being measured? x minutes between missions? x teleports per minute? I've seen a few ideas shot down as being "imbalanced" but never any guidelines for what exactly constitutes balance in this case, which would probably go a long ways to getting people on a compatible page for discussing this. Is giving a slow, free option to start with imbalanced? Is paying or earning your way to greater convenience than what's currently on offer imbalanced?

[Jacke]

20 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Ok, next up, with some help from @AboveTheChemist and @Jacke:

 

 

This is probably going to be a temporary solution though as we'd like to get something more integrated into the power itself.

6 hours ago, JAMMan0000 said:

I really like this. Nice work guys! Is this version of the mnu file available somewhere, or coming with page 2?

 

@AboveTheChemist's and my revision of his are simpler.  That version is all @Jimmy's.  Because it shows icons it's using the Icon command within its LockedOption's.  The one for Pocket D is that of the old command, so...that would be "Icon Teleportation_Pocket_D".  I don't have the internal names for the Badge icons.  But I did update my popmenu post above.

 

There's a number of things coming with Issue 27 Page 2.  If @Jimmy's showing that, I expect there may be an update to the stock FastTravel popmenu.

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Jacke

[Faultline]

33 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

I'm genuinely curious what exactly is the "valid" baseline for travel as you're envisioning it? How's that being measured? x minutes between missions? x teleports per minute?

We datamined how often players used enterbasefrompasscode every 10 minutes. Twice every 10 minutes was the median (>50% of uses), thrice every 10 minutes covered >95% of use cases. That's how we know that keeping it at 3 usages every 10 minutes will cover the vast majority of player use. The perception of thrice evey 10 minutes being too long is refuted by the data collected when players had free access to run the command as many times as they wanted, not artificially limited at all, and save extreme outliers kept it at 2-3 every 10 minutes.

[AboveTheChemist]

53 minutes ago, Jacke said:

I don't have the internal names for the Badge icons.

Here you go:

Hazard: badge_tourism_hazard
Hero: badge_tourist_01
Praetorian: badge_TourismPraetoria
Villain: v_badge_TourismBadge

 

[Jimmy]

8 hours ago, JAMMan0000 said:

I really like this. Nice work guys! Is this version of the mnu file available somewhere, or coming with page 2?

We're intentionally not distributing the menu file early because we don't want people to overwrite it manually, as that prevents any future updates from appearing in-game unless you delete that file, but it shouldn't take too long to hit live. It's not something that's waiting for Page 2.

[ZacKing]

6 hours ago, Faultline said:

As a result, you are using /ebfp instant-cast, zero-cooldown, no-cost as a baseline for what travel should be like. This is not a valid baseline, and no feedback that starts with that premise is useful.

I don't think anyone was expecting instant cast, no cooldown zero cost as a replacement.  what some have been trying to tell you all is that there's too many options and the costs and cooldowns on them are a bit too much.  that's all.  honestly, I don't expect any future changes to this. stuff,  you've all made up your minds.  you all could've copy/pasted the Oro portal code, put it into the P2W for 5 mil and given it a 5 minute recharge and been done with it.   I think most everyone would've accepted that as the compromise because that's what the initial discussions suggested in earlier threads.  instead we have numerous options to juggle now some with limited charges if we want to get a 5 minute or less cooldown.  that's not fun for some.

 

I do have a bit of feedback for you, please make the animation for LRTP customizable.  My natural based characters don't teleport by magic.  it would be nice to have options to use something like the radio in from Mercs MMs or the police band to call in and get beamed up.  thank you. 

[Monos King]

9 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

What reasons?  Why does it have to be this way?  This is what has been hotly debated in all of the feedback, and numerous examples have been given of other games and even instances within CoH where these obstacles to fast and even instant travel were removed as significant QoL improvements.  So far, the reasons given have all appeared to be completely arbitrary, and as such I have yet to see a defensible justification for why it has to be the way it is, and why it cannot be made simpler and more direct.

The reasons that are really here are subjective, moreso philosophical, which is where your disconnect lies. You aren't going to find pure fact or quantifiable data in people's preferences here, unless those are related to something like combat performance, yet you're attempting to debate this decision with facts like ebfp before was faster and these changes could be made even more convenient.
You are right, of course.

But fundamentally, what drives these and other actions is that the developers have an experience they want to maintain. That is the experience of the game's progression. How you progress through power (leveling) how you progress through zones (travel) how you progress through achievements. There is a weight to balance between qol convenience and the constraints that create this (or any) games sense of progression. "What" exactly something is better for is subject to scrutiny. You might call it arbitrary, but the HC team wishes to preserve that experience and the response to that is primarily positive, though there are of course moments of dissent like now. Even then, for the sake of precedent and professionalism, consistency matters. Despite this, the HC team has opted to reconcile some of that balance (Ouroboros at 1, base portal ebfp, faster than ebfp LRT) so that players could continue to travel similarly to before...so long as they earn the right. Therein lies the act of transitioning the dev command to the rules of the game, and the overall experience.

I've read your suggestions myself. I don't find them necessary. To be fair, I also don't see much harm in them, but that decision isn't mine; it's that of the devs who will consider the above. The truth simply is, anyone who dislikes these changes and/or just wants old ebfp back disagrees with the developers philosophically, and there will be no winning for you there. This is something to keep in mind for you and @NewXToa.

 

I think reductions in recharge time are feasible. I don't think they are needed. I doubt they are likely. If you're looking for an answer to "why does it have to be this way" chalk it up to philosophical difference.

[Jimmy]

42 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

you all could've copy/pasted the Oro portal code, put it into the P2W for 5 mil and given it a 5 minute recharge and been done with it.

Right now you can actually achieve this by spending just 1 million inf on Base Transporter and 5 minutes earning a single explore accolade. Both LRT and Base Transporter give you base access every 10 minutes each. We're also considering adding a quick LRT unlock to P2W as well, which would mean you could get this for 2 million inf and 0 minutes. Alternating between two powers is not a complex proposition. I strongly encourage you spend some time exploring the changes in-game instead of commenting about them on the forum.

 

It's become clear to me that you would've been happier if we removed the command outright, then later added these exact improvements later, because then it would've been seen as a "compromise". However, that would've sucked for the majority of players, so instead we worked hard to create this compromise first, and left the command available in the meantime. To us, the end result is more important than the optics.

42 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

honestly, I don't expect any future changes to this. stuff,  you've all made up your minds

You keep saying this, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

Exhibit A: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/73-beta-patch-notes/
 

Exhibit B:

On 11/24/2020 at 1:47 PM, Jimmy said:

Potential Future Developments

[snip]

The truth is important. Please stop distorting it. Thanks.

 

[Glacier Peak]

6 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

To be fair, Glacier... While getting the accolade unlock itself may be quick if you know where the Atlas badges are, getting an exploration badge from each of the potential destinations in order to make that accolade power actually useful is absolutely NOT something that can be done in five minutes. I think we do need to be honest about that. 

But that is a fair trade off, it's an accolade power. If it followed the same rules as the other accolade powers,  it wouldn't unlock with just one requirement. The HC team are being extra helpful to players by doing so. As an example, Portal Jockey takes way longer, Task Force Commander even more so, Archmage even more(r) so 🤣! 

[ZacKing]

44 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Right now you can actually achieve this by spending just 1 million inf on Base Transporter and 5 minutes earning a single explore accolade. Both LRT and Base Transporter give you base access every 10 minutes each. We're also considering adding a quick LRT unlock to P2W as well, which would mean you could get this for 2 million inf and 0 minutes. Alternating between two powers is not a complex proposition. I strongly encourage you spend some time exploring the changes in-game instead of commenting about them on the forum.

"here's 2 (and more) powers you don't really want instead of the one power you asked for that does what you want it to do".  I get it man, I know what they alldo and what they cost and what has to be juggled to use them.  Thanks, but I don't want a giant box that LRTP fills up on my screen just to use the ebfp from anywhere.   No choice but to live with what we've been "blessed with" unfortunately. 

 

48 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

You keep saying this, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

Yeah I know what it means to me, and that's not having to juggle all of these "improvements" instead of just one power.  Your opinion differs and that's ok. 

[Faultline]

11 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I don't want a giant box that LRTP fills up on my screen just to use the ebfp from anywhere.

You... do realize that when you use /ebfp, the entire screen is filled by a loading screen anyway, right?

 

Out of all the complaints, this one seems the absolutely most petty.

[Blackbird71]

8 hours ago, Faultline said:

Because they don't, no matter how many times you repeat the same misinformation.

Your own words, both previously and in this very post, show this to be incorrect:

 

8 hours ago, Faultline said:

The /ebfp cooldown can be made shorter by purchasing the various options that let you use it up to three times every 10 minutes.

This is what I'm talking about; in order to get the same frequency of use as before, multiple powers are now needed, as per your own statement.  Therefore, my comment is not "misinformation," and continuing to disparage my opinion as such is not appreciated.

 

8 hours ago, Faultline said:

The Pocket D VIP Pass was folded into LRT, the various market teleporters are gone. We removed different powers that did the same thing.

You've removed the variety we used to have, as those powers used to give us different destinations within each map, and could be used to better navigate depended on desired location.  Instead you've homogenized everything to transport players to the base portals.

 

8 hours ago, Faultline said:

The "long" cooldowns are shorter than what the VIP Pass or Base Transporter used to be.

And longer than the system which you allowed to persist for 1.5 years.  They are even longer than the Ouro portal.  The only justification given for their current length is "they were longer before."  The problem with that justification is it raises the question of why they can't be made even shorter?  Clearly the ability is there, it is the will that is lacking, and it appears to be for sheer stubbornness that you are hanging on to the 10 minute cooldowns, despite unrestricted travel 1) not having broken the game in the past 1.5 years that it was available, and 2) having become something of a standard among many MMOs in the time since CoH was live as developers discovered that inconveniencing players for inconvenience's sake is a bad idea (unless there's a way to milk it for cash).

 

8 hours ago, Faultline said:

No, we're facing it because we decided to let the /ebfp command stay active until we had a way to limit its use sensibly instead of just taking it away and saying "no, you can't have this, wait until we come up with a way to do it that follows sane game design rules".

That is certainly part of it, but there's nothing you can do about that now, you've waited to long.  What you can address though is the manner in which this has been "explained," as it has only made the situation worse.  We've repeatedly been given answers without a logical explanation or substantial reason for the specifics of the available powers, even when suggestions, reasons and examples are given for different options.  That comes off as condescension, and it's insulting to our intelligence.

 

8 hours ago, Faultline said:

As a result, you are using /ebfp instant-cast, zero-cooldown, no-cost as a baseline for what travel should be like. This is not a valid baseline, and no feedback that starts with that premise is useful.

The problem is that, as pointed out numerous times by others, similar travel has become the baseline in many MMOs and it has come to be expected.  There is no valid justification for why HC cannot offer similar QoL improvements, particularly when they have been demonstrated to work without destroying the game (exploits aside; all reasonable suggestions here have included that any solution needs to address these).  Unless you have data to show some damage that was being done to the health of the game by regular and unrestricted base travel being available?  Because so far that has not been presented to us; if it had been, this would be a completely different discussion. 

 

3 hours ago, Faultline said:

We datamined how often players used enterbasefrompasscode every 10 minutes. Twice every 10 minutes was the median (>50% of uses), thrice every 10 minutes covered >95% of use cases. That's how we know that keeping it at 3 usages every 10 minutes will cover the vast majority of player use. The perception of thrice evey 10 minutes being too long is refuted by the data collected when players had free access to run the command as many times as they wanted, not artificially limited at all, and save extreme outliers kept it at 2-3 every 10 minutes.

If your intent was to allow 3 uses every 10 minutes, then that should have been included in a single power through a reduced cooldown; not requiring multiple powers to achieve.  Through this and other comments you've repeatedly acknowledged that 3 transports in 10 minutes is not only common (~45% of cases based on your numbers), but is perfectly reasonable and should be supported.  Where we disagree is on whether it should take one or multiple powers to achieve this.  So far I have seen no logical justification for why this frequency can't be obtained with a single power.  It would be significantly more convenient, and would reduce power clutter (yes, you added the travel power menu; frankly this just moves the clutter around to a new "tray"), and would satisfy practically any of the outstanding legitimate complaints about this change.  What exactly would be the harm in a lower cooldown time on even just one of the base teleporter powers (that isn't otherwise restricted in frequency)?  That's the primary question that needs to be addressed in all of this; what damage would this really do?  If there is significant detriment, then explain that.  But if there is not, then maybe it's time to be a little more flexible in your thinking. 

[Blackbird71]

8 minutes ago, Faultline said:

You... do realize that when you use /ebfp, the entire screen is filled by a loading screen anyway, right?

 

Out of all the complaints, this one seems the absolutely most petty.

Not when it's used with a base passcode as part of the command; then there is no screen popup whatsoever. 

 

Or if you were referring to the transition loading screen, that's a non-argument and petty in itself.  Any form of transit between zones, /ebfp or otherwise, includes a loading screen during which the player cannot interact.  That is separate from interactible screen clutter.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Glacier Peak]

5 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Not when it's used with a base passcode as part of the command; then there is no screen popup whatsoever. 

This is so wrong lol 

 

Can you some how load a zone without getting a load screen?

 

Edit: nice edit @Blackbird71, glad you could clarify your inaccuracies for us.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Glacier Peak

[Faultline]

6 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

So far I have seen no logical justification for why this frequency can't be obtained with a single power.

I have answered this many times already: a single power on a 3 minute cooldown forces you to wait the whole 3 minutes every single time, and doesn't allow you to just do it twice in a row quickly where needed.

 

Honestly, I am done answering your messages; I tried, but it's clear that it doesn't matter how many times I give you answers, you just keep going back to "I don't know why", "I haven't seen justification" and so on. There's only so many times I can repeat myself before I give up.

[Blackbird71]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

This is so wrong lol 

 

Can you some how load a zone without getting a load screen??

Misunderstanding on my part.  I at first thought Faultline was referring to the popup window that prompts a player to select a base or enter a code.

[Blackbird71]

2 minutes ago, Faultline said:

I have answered this many times already: a single power on a 3 minute cooldown forces you to wait the whole 3 minutes every single time, and doesn't allow you to just do it twice in a row quickly where needed.

OK, now we're actually getting somewhere; being able to jump twice back to back is definitely a useful ability that I am in favor of.  Now, is there a reason why the cooldown time of a single power cannot be lowered to facilitate this in a single power?  I would think that the 30s cooldown on the Monitor Duty Teleporter would be sufficient for this effect, but the restriction of charges on this power makes frequent use prohibitive. 

If there is a valid justification for why a single power cannot have a low enough cooldown to meet this use case, then let's look at reducing the need for multiple powers.  Three uses in under 10 minutes still means at least three powers are needed; can we make it two instead?  Reduce LRTP or one of the other base teleport powers to the five minutes of the Ouro portal; then only one other power would be needed to get three teleports in under 10 minutes.  It's not a complete solution, and I know personally it's still going to make for inconvenient situations, and I still object to the idea of needing more than one power (and a submenu) to get the job done, but if there is an actual reason for why it has to be at least two powers, can it be kept to just two?

[America's Angel]

@Blackbird71 @ZacKing @NewXToa & others - have you actually tested these new TP powers out in game, or are you arguing from a purely philosophical standpoint? I ask this because often a concern we have on paper turns out to be irrelevant when tested in "real world" settings.

 

As a powergamer, I was initially wary of the changes. But after playtesting them, being able to teleport to a travel hub base three times in ten minutes is more than enough for me. (I don't even use LRT to teleport directly to zones. I just use it to go to a travel hub base. Because I'm too lazy to get the exploration badges. If these changes work for a player as lazy as me, they should be fine for everyone.)

 

Also, arguments that say "What's the downside of letting the new base portal powers recharge instantly?" or "What's the downside of just giving us /enterbasefrompasscode everywhere but without the bad exploit attached?" are not valid. The lack of a negative is not justification. You need the presence of a positive. For example, what if I asked: "what's the downside of making capes slightly longer?" There wouldn't be one. Does that mean the devs should make capes longer? Obviously not. If a change is to be made, then it has to be justified. The best way to do this is to look at player behaviour. The devs did this with base TP portals by datamining player behaviour, finding a solution that 95% of people will be happy with, and going with it.

 

"Aha!" I hear you cry "What about the remaining 5%?"

 

A valid point. Let's consider those 5% of people who tp to base more than 3 times per 10 minutes. They are likely to be:

-Speed runners

-Base crafters

-Plaque/Exploration badge hunters.

 

Speedrunners are adapting just fine by alternating who summons the portals. Base crafters are adapting just fine by standing next to a SG portal in zone. And as for plaque/exploration badge hunters? Well yeah they have it harder now. But honestly the one thing /enterbasefrompasscode DID make too easy was collecting exploration badges/plaques. Badges are meant to be a timesink, so this isn't a negative change IMO. (Certainly not one worth of a 21 page thread.)

 

Like I said at the start, on paper your concerns seem valid. But when you apply them to  a "real world" setting they just don't seem that much of a big deal.

Edited November 28, 2020 by America's Angel

[Jimmy]

Next set of changes is on test: 

 

LRT is now in the P2W vendor, and the base access functionality for LRT is now much more obvious.

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

But that is a fair trade off, it's an accolade power. If it followed the same rules as the other accolade powers,  it wouldn't unlock with just one requirement. The HC team are being extra helpful to players by doing so. As an example, Portal Jockey takes way longer, Task Force Commander even more so, Archmage even more(r) so 🤣! 

 

I never said it wasn't fair. I just said we need to be honest about the time it takes to accomplish.