Tankers useless endgame?

[VV]

On 1/9/2021 at 10:44 AM, Rinwen said:

Someone told me, since I have one, that leveling a Tanker, (my favorite is my INV/SS), is pointless if I ever have interest in "endgame group" content.

This is one of those statements that is so clueless and so immature that it is hardly worth addressing. But, since you are concerned that nobody will team with you for endgame content, I want to reassure you that anyone that holds the above opinion is someone that you do not want to team with, anyway. Those people are by far the minority and terrible players, so just stay away from them. My tanker, and all the tankers I know have no trouble finding or running groups for endgame.

[nihilii]

These days, I'm actually struggling to find the point of a Brute compared to a Tanker in the endgame.

Tankers got a sizeable damage buff last year, some of it directly in their damage scale, some of it indirect through higher radius in their AoEs.

 

A +50% buff in radius is 2.25x the surface area for a PBAoE, seeing as we're looking at a circle. In just about any normal situation, enemies are scattered enough every inch of that extra surface area is helpful.
 

Brutes need to build Fury, Tankers always operate at fullspeed. Another slight advantage.

 

Damage buffs are also fairly common in the endgame. Tankers get more out of damage buffs than Brutes. Musculature is probably the optimal Incarnate choice in most cases, and will benefit a Tanker almost twice as much as a Brute, relatively speaking. Tankers got higher Leadership modifiers as part of their 2020 buff: hello +15% damage Assault.

 

All these little things add up.

OP's combo in particular, Inv/SS, benefits tremendously from being a Tanker rather than a Brute.

- Rage is a permanent damage buff

- Rage's crashes make the extra Tanker mitigation a welcome addition

Neither Tankers nor Brutes are useless... but just knowing you can find players who have directly opposite opinions of the validity of either AT should tell you game balance is in a good enough spot you don't have to worry about your choice. The divergence of opinions implies performance is muddy enough for each faction to have the perspective one AT is clearly superior to the other.

[Snarky]

Not to crap on this wonderful Tankers are better than Brutes vibe.  But, isn't the damage cap for Brutes 700 and the Tankers are a tad bit lower?  Because solo, sure, Tanks needed the buff and might be comparable to a Brute now.  But roaring at full steam in a buffed league?

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

 

These days, I'm actually struggling to find the point of a Brute compared to a Tanker in the endgame.

 

Energy Aura. Since it’s not likely to port over to Tankers anytime soon, A Brute is the way to play a similar version of the set.

[nihilii]

45 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Not to crap on this wonderful Tankers are better than Brutes vibe.  But, isn't the damage cap for Brutes 700 and the Tankers are a tad bit lower?  Because solo, sure, Tanks needed the buff and might be comparable to a Brute now.  But roaring at full steam in a buffed league?

Probably. I don't league much and I play on small teams much more, so that's my bias. Along with valuing 3-4x as much mitigation all the time much more than 33% extra damage in ideal conditions.

That is, don't get me wrong... Damage is great. But then if that's what I want, I'll go Scrapper to do much more damage than the Brute, no strings attached.

Brutes sit on this fence right now where their damage:survivability ratio just doesn't seem all that compelling at high level. It used to be Brutes outpaced Scrappers on damage, but the ATOs and easy incarnates reshuffled the deck. It used to be Tanker damage was way too low, but the Tanker buff changed that too.

 

(And of course the Brute damage cap took a hit, although it doesn't come into play often enough for me personally, so getting slightly more consistent Fury was actually a buff.)

Edited January 11, 2021 by nihilii

[Shred Monkey]

I'm not sure who's telling you these things.  It's not like people won't team with you because you're a tank.  You might not get to stand in front of everyone and take all the damage while they hide behind you.  But that's not the same thing as them not wanting you there because you're a tank.  The only people I don't want on my team are the ones who act like jerks and tell everyone what their role is or tell people they should play something else because they're not contributing enough.

 

 

 

 

[Apparition]

16 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Probably. I don't league much and I play on small teams much more, so that's my bias. Along with valuing 3-4x as much mitigation all the time much more than 33% extra damage in ideal conditions.

That is, don't get me wrong... Damage is great. But then if that's what I want, I'll go Scrapper to do much more damage than the Brute, no strings attached.

Brutes sit on this fence right now where their damage:survivability ratio just doesn't seem all that compelling at high level. It used to be Brutes outpaced Scrappers on damage, but the ATOs and easy incarnates reshuffled the deck. It used to be Tanker damage was way too low, but the Tanker buff changed that too.

 

(And of course the Brute damage cap took a hit, although it doesn't come into play often enough for me personally, so getting slightly more consistent Fury was actually a buff.)

 

I'd rather play a Brute than a Scrapper because with the exception of a few Scrapper secondaries (Shield for example), I won't have to go chasing after mobs.  YMMV.

 

I look at Tankers the same way I look at Defenders: Overkill.  Brutes are more than survivable enough for all content, and do more damage.

[Shred Monkey]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

These days, I'm actually struggling to find the point of a Brute compared to a Tanker in the endgame.

Yeah... I've got a scrapper I shelved to remake as a tank and just this weekend I shelved a Brute to remake as a tank.  Early to mid game Brutes are very strong due to the way fury works... but with endgame builds, tanks can really close that gap in damage output (outside of a farm).  

 

Basically, in homecoming I find myself playing Blasters and Tanks.  And basically the difference between those is "do I want to be immune to all incoming damage, or just 95% of it?"

Edited January 11, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[Six-Six]

just had a thought regarding the importance or necessity of a certain ATs or roles...

even if you mutated to a Rikti Monkey, you are still useful for a laugh or two. So nothing, NOTHING, and no one is utterly useless in this game. 😃

[Carnifax]

3 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I'm not sure who's telling you these things.  It's not like people won't team with you because you're a tank.  You might not get to stand in front of everyone and take all the damage while they hide behind you.  But that's not the same thing as them not wanting you there because you're a tank.  The only people I don't want on my team are the ones who act like jerks and tell everyone what their role is or tell people they should play something else because they're not contributing enough.

Pretty much this. I'll always welcome a tank but you have exactly 2 seconds to rush a spawn or my Kin goes in anyway with a Fulc Shift. 

 

A bad tank will say "wait here" and go off and do their herdy thing. A good tank will rush the spawn, absorbing the alpha, with us closely behind him. A great tank will barrel right through the first spawn and drag outliers (or a 2nd spawn, I'm not fussy) back into the mosh pit. 

[Shenanigunner]

30 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

A bad tank will say "wait here" and go off and do their herdy thing. A good tank will rush the spawn, absorbing the alpha, with us closely behind him. A great tank will barrel right through the first spawn and drag outliers (or a 2nd spawn, I'm not fussy) back into the mosh pit. 

 

Well, yeah, if all missions == max dps farming.

[Carnifax]

Just now, Shenanigunner said:

 

Well, yeah, if all missions == max dps farming.

What's max dps farming?? I've honestly no idea. 

 

I just like playing every character in full Scrapperlock mode. It's why I love the ITF so much. 

[Shenanigunner]

57 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

What's max dps farming?? I've honestly no idea.

 

Full-bore playing for the numbers.

 

Not to diss anyone's play style — it's easy enough to just "play with your own kind" in CoH — but my view is that there's three kinds of players on teams:

1. The max-number crowd going for the highest possible individual/team DPS. Often the players that only build the absolute maximum number ATs, powersets, slotting etc. worked out to the third decimal place on MIDS or whatever. They play like they're cranking a bitcoin generator. I sometimes wonder if these players even "see" the game itself. Teams are about massacring spawns as fast as possible.
2. The hey-lookit-me players for whom a team is just support and/or audience for their incredible build and skilz. Nobody better make a move that doesn't maximize them.
3. Players who love teaming as much to banter, watch someone else's toon take a boss's head off and play through the mission or TF or arc as much for the fun of it as for the XP and drops. (This is where you'll find me and have for ~13 years.)

 

57 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I just like playing every character in full Scrapperlock mode. It's why I love the ITF so much.

 

Trying to pull every mob in sight into one brawl doesn't fit in #3, not really. So seeing a tank's job as rounding up foes for you is maybe not the fairest view of what the AT is all about.

[Carnifax]

21 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

Trying to pull every mob in sight into one brawl doesn't fit in #3, not really. So seeing a tank's job as rounding up foes for you is maybe not the fairest view of what the AT is all about

It's just how I like to play is all. Even on my tank I play like this. I just think "if support is going to drop their great debuff patches here then logically we should pull as many as possible here too". 

 

I am not a number! (Gets enveloped in a weird giant white beach ball and dragged away)

Edited January 12, 2021 by Carnifax

[Neiska]

@Rinwen

Hi OP,

 

I hope this finds you well. I am no means an expert, as there are people with wiser heads and far more experience and knowledge of all the hidden factors in the game than anything I could claim. I can however, offer my own insight and advice.

 

1. The biggest advice I can give is - Don't focus on the stats or numbers. Focus on the fun, that's most important. "Any" build/powerset combo can perform well on 2/8 etc. Personally I consider that the end difficulty, with anything beyond that as similar to a new game plus or "hardmode" for those whose favored experience is "redlining" what a build is capable of. (Nothing against those people! I am one of them myself!) Not every build/at/powersets are going to be able to solo 4/8, or solo gms/avs, or be equal on all difficulties on all activites. Which brings me to my next point -

 

2. This game is largely subjective. What one person consideres "op" another person will not. It largely depends on personal tastes and playstyles, as well as activities invovled. So I would advise taking some of what people say with a grain of salt. Because similar to point #1 even if a at/build has a numerical advantage, like myself you might loathe the gameplay of said character, and if I am not having fun then I dont care how big the numbers are, because there is little point.

 

A personal example of this - One of my characters is a "crabbermind". However, I did not build her in the typical manner. Most people don't realize that a Crabber soldiers resistances can go all the way to 85% all res. I have been on a few teams where I was actually tougher than the brute or tanker, just no aggro tools like taunt. But the flipside of being a "toughy crabbie" is she can actually farm AEs as well, easially in fact. Similar to tankers I can put her on "afk" and just have her autocast Frenzy. She is tough enough not to die, so I can actually farm with her easially. Which is something not many other crabbers can claim. So don't be afraid to experiment with ATs, Powersets, Builds, Incarnates, and Enchancement slotting. You might be pleasently suprised!

 

3. As per your specific question, are Tankers useless? That really depends on the activity you are referring to. Are you talking about Farming AE's? Radio Missions? Incranate Trials? Soloing? Team Play? Badge Hunting? Completing Accolates? Hunting Giant Monsters/Archvillians? 

 

Here are where I personally think tanks shine at 50 -

1. Ease of playing - you can play most tanks and do quite well, even if on a limited budget. They are mostly easy to build, they can perform wonderfully even with plain basic IOs slotted, and are a great "training wheels" character to start for someone new to the game. You really cant go wrong with Tanker, or Brute for that matter. Both are also very forgiving if you make mistakes in builds, slotting, or attack rotations.

2. Farming - Brutes and Tanks are fantastic farmers. Either to help pay for your other characters, or to farm emp merits, or to help level others. Brutes I would say are "faster" farmers, but Tankers are much more chill/relaxed. Plus there are quite a few tankers that are capable of going entirely afk with an aoe power on autocast, and they will still clear maps on the highest difficulty. This means you can farm while doing other activites like homework, taking your fluffy outside, doing dishes, talking to your parents, and so on. For me personally I like having a tanker farmer more than a brute, simply because I don't always have hours to sink into playing, as I am an adult with responsibilities now. But this "afk" mode is a wonderful way to multitask.

3. Leading/leveling - If you are the sort of person who enjoys making friends/helping strangers, a tanker or brute both are fantastic at hosting Radio Mission runs. They can solo it on the hardest difficulty entirely by themselves if need be, which is great if you are trying to help other people or just be social.

 

They are good at other activites, much the same as any AT. But these are where I feel they stand out among the others. 

 

So to directly answer your question, are Tankers useless endgame? I would say certainly not, no more than any other AT being "useless". As I said, its entirely subjective. This game has no "trinity" of group dynamic - Tanker, Healer, DPS. You can make literally any group makeup work. You could run a content with nothing but tankers, (such as tanker tuesdays.) But you could also do the same with any other AT. (personally I had a blast with an all stalker team where we would all assinate our targets all at once, and move onto the next. It felt like being on a team of ninjas!) 

 

Hope this helps! Best wishes and please stay safe!  

[Doomguide2005]

On 1/11/2021 at 5:58 AM, nihilii said:

<stuff> ...

Neither Tankers nor Brutes are useless... but just knowing you can find players who have directly opposite opinions of the validity of either AT should tell you game balance is in a good enough spot you don't have to worry about your choice. The divergence of opinions implies performance is muddy enough for each faction to have the perspective one AT is clearly superior to the other.

This, a thousand times, adding to what both Luminara and Shred Monkey have said.  No AT is needed at endgame (or through the entirety of the game for that matter) and the only thing I don't want on my team is a "jerk".

[Myrmidon]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:03 AM, Shred Monkey said:

 

I'm not sure who's telling you these things.

 

Perhaps someone like this is telling them these things.

 

 

 

 

Tyrannical’s “Wild Kingdom”

 

“Today we witness Brute Mains in their natural habitat; the 'pls buff' thread. They are extremely territorial creatures that distrust one another, and are prone to hostility at the slightest provocation, often fighting over mere scraps of logic that are precious sustenance for their arguments.

 

In the event that one 'Alpha' Brute Main challenges another, a battle will ensue for several posts as a fight for domination. This fight can last for days and often there is no clear victor, and both Alphas retreat to their lair to lick their wounds ready for the next pointless spat when a new thread is inevitably created.

 

Brute Mains can easily be stunned if they are presented with an ultimatum; play actual challenging content. This paralyzing attack on their ego is enough to leave them confused and often they back away from such a challenge, afraid to surrender their position.

 

It is rare for a Brute Main to coexist with other players, as their need to be the apex predator encourages them to attack Tankers and Scrappers on sight, thinking them as unwelcome competition in their game. Defenders and Controllers are easy prey for these beasts, driving them out of their teams and into the wilds.

 

It is also rare to see a Brute Main domesticated, as their abandonment of sensibility only deters other players from adopting them into their pack, fearing that they will continue to bitch and whine even when they are presented with small buffs to their performance, and often feigning death cries when they are needed to be nerfed.

 

So remember, if you see a Brute Main in the wild, it's best to leave it well alone, and hope that it doesn't drag you into one of it's inane arguments.”

[DZKFire]

I honestly don't care if someone wants to play numbers game or min/max in my team. I'm not sure why people get offended by these players? Very rarely do I ever have a bad experience with them. Most of the time, they just do their own thing in the missions anyway.

 

Only times I get irritated at a team mate is if they deliberately not follow directions e.g. speed running a defeat all ITF. Ok that's a lie, i also get irritated because I play on red side a lot and having to wait and explain clueless hero #827492 that their actually exists a villains side, only to find out that they are like level 3 and don't meet the level requirement of the TF then leave, never to visit red side again :')

[Shenanigunner]

2 hours ago, DZKFire said:

I honestly don't care if someone wants to play numbers game or min/max in my team. I'm not sure why people get offended by these players?

 

In-game, rarely. As players in the community, never. When they pound the desk and insist that X AT is the only one, or X build or X slotting, because if you don't build for that extreme min-max you're just wasting your time... yeah, I get offended. Well, maybe offended isn't the right word, but certainly irritated. We unfortunately live in a polarized world of extreme opinions, and completely aside from the fact that this game can be played fifty different ways and we're all free to "do it our own rotten way"... I don't care for the attitude that They're Right, We're All Wrong simply because we play in a different way, to different ends, and aren't in a hurry to join their Incarnate numbers team.

 

Put another way, there aren't many player subsets that... make such a big, extended, noisy deal of their choices. So any 'offense' is entirely of their own making.

[Shenanigunner]

On 1/11/2021 at 11:34 AM, Carnifax said:

I am not a number! (Gets enveloped in a weird giant white beach ball and dragged away)

 

Okay, major props for that. 😄

[Infinitum]

**looks at thread title**

 

*looks again at thread title*

 

**yells: TANKERS ARE >*  **

 

 

 

[SwitchFade]

True end game is forums.

 

So, your ability to tank eRage is priceless.

 

For everything else there's AtlasCard.

Edited January 13, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Ukase]

The simple truth is this: Opinions vary. 

Most, with proper motivation could make the argument that ANY one Archetype is useless in end game. 
Blasters? Great for dps - but so are scrappers, brutes, khelds. (in nova) and some corruptors. 
Corruptors - great for buffs, good for damage - but controllers bring a decent amount of dps with their pets in end game, and good buffs, too. Defenders bring better buffs, too. 
Defenders - the best buffs, not so great damage themselves, but some have great damage multipliers - kin, rad for example, Further, great debuffs, like dark. 

I could go on. And someone could come behind me and refute with their own opinions. 

Because we can all recognize that all of us are entitled to our opinions, the simple credo of "play what's fun for you" wins the day. 

Understand that some league/team leaders for certain content may not need your services as a tank. Don't take it personally. Just do something else. They may know something you don't - or they may not have a clue and you've been spared a miserable time. It's really none of our business. We have our own paths, wherever they may take us. 

An in-game friend who I consider to be quite knowledgeable thinks Fire/Nature corruptors are just the greatest. I made one. He shared his build, I saw his goal was perma-overgrowth. Makes sense. I kept the perma, changed the travel powers, a few other minor adjustments. But I remain unimpressed. It's okay, but I like the fire/rad corruptor better. Yeah, the animation of the debuffs sucks. But I still like it better. For reasons of our own - we like a slightly different flavor of corruptor. Neither of us are right or wrong. 

Do I think my debuffs serve a league/team better in the end game? Absolutely. Do nature's buffs serve a league/team better than my feeble radiant aura and AM? Absolutely. 
Are both characters obsolete in end game play? You can make the case for it either way. Just depends on how much you want to troll your friends. 

 

 

[Riverdusk]

I think pretty much every AT has a thread like this.  I know I've basically seen one for corrupters, stalkers, and definitely sentinels.  Here is a perfect example (and far from the first one I've seen) about controllers and dominators.  So, as others have said, play what you like and enjoy.  

 

 

[Ironblade]

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

The simple truth is this: Opinions vary. 

Most, with proper motivation could make the argument that ANY one Archetype is useless in end game.

I can't agree here.  I think that calling any AT useless is such an extreme position that we can consider it WRONG and not merely a matter of opinion.

One could argue about which AT is the best at something.  One could argue about whether any AT is actually needed.  But to say that any AT is literally useless, i.e. adding zero value, is right out.