Tankers useless endgame?

[Rinwen]

Hello, my super brothers & sisters.

 

I'm posting this question here rather than in the Tankers section because I believe it will garner more answers since often people who don't play an archetype may never view their section... I never ever check the MM section for example as I've never, not since joining EQ1 in '98, ever enjoyed pet classes, lol.

 

Someone told me, since I have one, that leveling a Tanker, (my favorite is my INV/SS), is pointless if I ever have interest in "endgame group" content.  I'd be better off with a Brute, which I also have, or Scrapper, which I have so many of, they're coming out of my ears, lol.

 

I'm not really, 100% sure that I care beyond academic curiosity as I'm more of a solo player... but I'd certainly like to have the option, and be a contributing, (not leeching), member of such a group.  I do most definitely enjoy the camaraderie and teamwork when I have the time to focus on the game and indulge. 

 

So... Tanker, (specifically if it matters, INV/SS), useless and unwanted in the endgame? 

 

If so, on the brightside, I wouldn't have to worry about the enhancement expense of having my fun to me, concept, not optimized solo build, AND an optimized for grouping build, (I believe in play/gear etc as you like when it's just YOU... but I personally feel obligated to play/gear for what's best for the group when playing in a group).

 

Thanks for your time and advice on this. 

 

Take care, 

Sheer Force, INV/SS Tanker, and NoOb Extraordinaire 

[Dark Dove]

No AT is useless in endgame.  There are a few specific situations in very specific missions where a Tanker is particularly useful.

 

I think what is closer to reality is, no AT is required in endgame for the most part.  Every AT starts to function similarly with the addition of incarnate abilities and IO sets.  Every AT can slot IO sets to get very high defenses, and every AT gets massive AoE damage and even mez protection.  Tankers aren't special in this, all AT's start to look the same, all roles become muddy when everyone can do everything.

 

Tankers are great fun, and even if every AT can build tough, Tankers are the toughest still.  Have fun with your Inv/SS, that's the point after all, right?  Don't worry about what someone thinks about the AT, just focus on what you like about it.

 

Tankers are definitely not unwanted in endgame, they do smooth things over, just like other AT's.

[Twisted Toon]

Repeat Offenders, on live, were of the opinion that no AT was necessary ( with the possible exception of Defenders when teamed together in groups of 8 )

I tend to agree with them.

Just recently, my Widow has been teaming with a Scrapper and a Blaster.

Before that, my Controller was teaming with a Blaster and a Defender.

No Tank, no Brute.

[Grindingsucks]

Damage output is so extreme at lvls 50+ that all AT roles are largely unnecessary, though they can still be helpful to some degree.  This is largely because end-game content did not keep pace with the power increase of archetypes after the introduction of IO sets + incarnate abilities.

 

Plenty of people still love and play Tankers, though.  I find that they don't do quite enough damage to satisfy me when I'm playing solo, so I tend not to play them so much anymore.  YMMV, of course, such things being subjective.

 

 

[EmmySky]

No AT is needed but also no AT is useless.  It is more about how you build your powers and slots.  I run one build per toon.  If that build can solo adequately (which I solo a lot so I ensure that it can) then I can be of use to any team I join.  I see no need for multiple builds, even my farm builds can solo most content (possibly a caveat for PvP but I haven't futzed with that yet).

[Rinwen]

14 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

Repeat Offenders, on live, were of the opinion that no AT was necessary ( with the possible exception of Defenders when teamed together in groups of 8 )

I tend to agree with them.

Just recently, my Widow has been teaming with a Scrapper and a Blaster.

Before that, my Controller was teaming with a Blaster and a Defender.

No Tank, no Brute.

Ok, ket me rephrase, because I do believe no class, in any game should be necessary per se, and hold up a group.

 

Actually, and specifically, the person said, "...not wanted because they don't bring anything to the table that other ATs don't do better..."

 

I'll still play, and thoroughly enjoy him... just curious if he'd ever be needed/wanted in an endgame group.

[Ghost]

Everyone has an opinion on which ATs are the most useless - and some people feel the need to make their opinions known.

IMO, the best endgame AT is the one I enjoy playing the most. 

 

[Grouchybeast]

Maybe this is server dependent, but I've never had anyone turn down any of my characters for any teams on HC or on Live, or even souded slightly disappointed.  Really, once you get to a team of eight or more, no character is needed and no character is unwanted.  This is doubly true at incarnate levels, where people will have a wide selection of incarnate powers available.  But across all levels, there aren't any ATs or powersets where people are going to fall to their knees in desperate gratitude when you arrive, but I think that's a feature of CoX, not a bug.

 

(Except that one time on Live in the middle of the night on Defiant, where a lower-level team with no debuffers had been hacking away at Lusca forever, and I answered a call for help with my Rad Defender.  That one time people were really happy.)

Edited January 9, 2021 by Grouchybeast

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 minutes ago, Rinwen said:

 

 

I'll still play, and thoroughly enjoy him... just curious if he'd ever be needed/wanted in an endgame group.

I'd be very surprised if a tank was rejected from an endgame group for being a tank v. a brute or a scrapper.  In fact, the only real distinction if I were making a team is that I'd want to know if the tank wanted to take point and/or used taunt.  And if not, no big deal.  I've tanked with MMs and corruptors when the tanker on the team didn't want to take point.

 

By 50, and especially with incarnates, I don't see a lot of difference in ATs.  Just about any well built melee character can plow through +4/x8 solo, IMO, so as far as I'm concerned, I just want my teammates to be good company.  Or Rikti monkeys.  They are fun.

[DZKFire]

Keep in mind that a lot of teams do the same TFs/radios/content and it's kind of easy. Doing something like fighting +4 Rularuu is quiet challenging.

 

I thought my Dark tank was invincible so I've been playing +4/x8. Then I did a tip mission that involved arachnoids and got crushed by the massive debuffs they literally spit out. 

[Rinwen]

2 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

Maybe this is server dependent, but I've never had anyone turn down any of my characters for any teams on HC or on Live, or even souded slightly disappointed.  Really, once you get to a team of eight or more, no character is needed and no character is unwanted.  This is doubly true at incarnate levels, where people will have a wide selection of incarnate powers available.  But across all levels, there aren't any ATs or powersets where people are going to fall to their knees in desperate gratitude when you arrive, but I think that's a feature of CoX, not a bug.

 

(Except that one time on Live in the middle of the night on Defiant, where a lower-level team with no debuffers had been hacking away at Lusca forever, and I answered a call for help with my Rad Defender.  That one time people were really happy.)

Actually, when grouping, I'm very much a healer/Support/CC player in MMOs, as well as my weekly PnP D&D game, lol.

 

My favorite grouping characters are a Rad/Rad Defender and Mind/Emp-Rad-FF Controller... putting a gun to my head... Rad/Rad Defender taking top slot, both from an efficacy and visual/animation standpoint. 

[ForeverLaxx]

It sounds like all they're getting at is once people are IO'd out to the gills, "all teams" just rush forward with soft capped defenses and Nukes/AoEs used on a very short cycle for every single spawn. In that very specific case, Tanks have a hard time shining due to lower damage values even though they get wider AoEs, and their "advantage" of having higher base defenses and caps is offset by Brutes having the same cap (and really, everyone else regarding actual Defense rather than Resistance).

 

That said, this is a very particular way to play and usually involves chaining the same easy, boring, radio/paper mission with Council or some similarly designed group since EXP rates aren't adjusted very well to account for enemy group variance. You don't see people doing this for Malta, Carnies, Rularuu, Nemesis, etc because those groups have quirks with who to target first that slows down a group and punishes people who aren't paying any attention at all.

 

Even in the easier content, you're not "useless". You're still more able to shrug off any damage that does get through, when compared to a Blaster, and Taunt is great at bringing in ranged groups and stopping mobs from running off more often. If you do any other content, you're a good asset to any team.

 

It just sounds like your buddy is very narrowly focused on running the simplest, safest, high-level content.

Edited January 9, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[Shenanigunner]

3 hours ago, Dark Dove said:

Don't worry about what someone thinks about the AT, just focus on what you like about it.

 

Nothing more important can be said about this game. Play it your way. PLAY.

 

Players who are obsessed with maxed numbers and lightning leveling and soloing endgame content are... well, my attitude is "have fun, guys, but kinda sorta just shut up and go play your way instead of loudly maintaining that everyone who plays differently (you know, PLAYS) is an idiot."

[Biff Pow]

Tankers: "Are teams useless endgame?"

[Saikochoro]

No archetype is useless. I can’t think of a single time I have ever heard of a tanker being turned down from a team. I personally like tankers more than brutes. They are easier to build tough than brutes due to their modifiers and their damage is not lacking. I don’t think you will have a problem finding teams with a tanker regardless of the content. 
 

The most important thing is to play what you want to play regardless of other people’s opinions. 

[KauaiJim]

No AT is useless.  On Homecoming every AT is even much more viable than they were on Live.  I had to laugh when I read the OP because by coincidence my latest project is a INV/SS Tanker that I based off of one of the crazy unkillable SS/INV Brute builds  (thanks Hyperstrike!).  This Tanker is quickly becoming one of my all time favorites.  Out of 90 or so toons.  So far...

 

You will always run into different personalities and opinions in MMO's.  It's part of the experience.  But ultimately, you should follow your own path.  Play what you enjoy.  Don't worry what everyone else says.  This is a game.  Have fun!

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Rinwen said:

Someone told me, since I have one, that leveling a Tanker, (my favorite is my INV/SS), is pointless if I ever have interest in "endgame group" content.

The only thing useless or pointless is anyone pushing that type of opinion.

[SuperPlyx]

So I figure I would just give some examples of a Tank use at end game.

One good example is Ms. Liberty Task Force , tanking  Recluse  is not an absolutely  necessary  strategy on some teams. But on a lot of them it is.

Another example is, I was on the Minds of Mayhem Trial we had no tank or a brute that could taunt.We could not get a storm to Penny and  this ended up a failure.

There is absolutely a place for tanks in the end game, as with there is with any AT.

 

 

[LiquidBandage]

6 hours ago, Rinwen said:

Hello, my super brothers & sisters.

 

I'm posting this question here rather than in the Tankers section because I believe it will garner more answers since often people who don't play an archetype may never view their section... I never ever check the MM section for example as I've never, not since joining EQ1 in '98, ever enjoyed pet classes, lol.

 

Someone told me, since I have one, that leveling a Tanker, (my favorite is my INV/SS), is pointless if I ever have interest in "endgame group" content.  I'd be better off with a Brute, which I also have, or Scrapper, which I have so many of, they're coming out of my ears, lol.

Consider who it is that is offering their opinion. What do they have as a frame of reference? They posit something and offer no supporting evidence. Does that seem suspicious to you in any way? 

Use some critical thinking skills. Observe a bit. Ask about endgame content and how it works. Then try to reverse engineer how your characters can help in those situations. Then re-evaluate how this "someone" told you something about how X is worthless, you should do Y instead. 

[Apparition]

Incarnate content is rough on melee in general (although it's rougher on Masterminds), but they're by no means useless.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Supertanker said:

Tankers: "Are teams useless endgame?"

Looking at the Tank Gods thread, this is accurate. 

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, Rinwen said:

So... Tanker, (specifically if it matters, INV/SS), useless and unwanted in the endgame?

 

Yes.

 

And so are scrappers, defenders, blasters, controllers, Kheldians, Soldiers of Arachnos, brutes, stalkers, dominators, corruptors, masterminds and sentinels.  Completely and utterly useless.  The game was specifically designed to ensure that no archetype was necessary in teams, and that works inversely, by making all archetypes unnecessary in teams.

 

It doesn't matter what you play.  It doesn't matter how you play.  What matters is that you play.  That's what makes a team succeed, regardless of which archetypes are present.  You.

 

So keep playing, and don't worry about whether or not your characters are useful.  As long as you're playing them, they are.

[Rinwen]

1 hour ago, LiquidBandage said:

Consider who it is that is offering their opinion. What do they have as a frame of reference? They posit something and offer no supporting evidence. Does that seem suspicious to you in any way? 

Use some critical thinking skills. Observe a bit. Ask about endgame content and how it works. Then try to reverse engineer how your characters can help in those situations. Then re-evaluate how this "someone" told you something about how X is worthless, you should do Y instead. 

Uh... am I not doing exactly that?  Asking other opinions?

 

He never said, nor did I say that he said, to play something else.

 

Who is he?  All I'll say is that he's a Lv 50, fully incarnated Brute who gave me some power leveling, and then offered me 100,000,000 Inf, (which I did NOT accept... Yomo's 20 mil Inf gift was enough), because he was at the Inf cap, and needed to get rid of some.

 

A) I'd say someone like that probably has enough game experience to know something. 

B) Again, he never tried to dissuade me from playing a Tank, just said that in today's endgame world, they aren't needed, or particularly desirable because other ATs outperform them in damage, and damage is king.

   B.2) Many here have agreed that NO AT is really needed at the maxed out level... some saying Tankers are more situational, (probably true of many/all ATs)

   B.3) I've read the "damage is king in this game" many, many times, so I suspect there's some truth there. 

 

Between A) - B.3) above, there was the ring of truth to what he said.

 

Because I do use critical thinking skills, I came here seeking more opinions. 

 

As I said in my OP, even if 100% true, I'd still play my INV/SS Tanker alot, and I'll spec him with Hurl and Laser eyes, (usually regarded as pointless and a waste of a power pick... choose one or the other, not both, so the build advice goes), because that will be fun for me... I just won't go to the expense of kitting out a separate "team build,"

Edited January 9, 2021 by Rinwen

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, SuperPlyx said:

So I figure I would just give some examples of a Tank use at end game.

One good example is Ms. Liberty Task Force , tanking  Recluse  is not an absolutely  necessary  strategy on some teams. But on a lot of them it is.

Another example is, I was on the Minds of Mayhem Trial we had no tank or a brute that could taunt.We could not get a storm to Penny and  this ended up a failure.

There is absolutely a place for tanks in the end game, as with there is with any AT.

 

 

Wednesday I ran an ITF with one scrapper (who didn't have confront), a dom (me), and I can't remember the others, but they were all various squishies--point being, we had no tank or brute. Sure, we completed the thing, but damn were we wishing we had a proper meatshield with taunt to keep the fucking AV's from running. We must have chased Rom over a quarter of the map and countless mobs. 

[Veracor]

5 hours ago, EmmySky said:

No AT is needed but also no AT is useless.

 

This.

 

The endgame is not hard enough to require AT balance or setups, but it is also not easy enough to go in with only Tankers and get reasonable times.  Playing a Tanker makes leading iTrials a very mechanical process, as you are able to command from the front and to take on dangerous mechanics yourself while typing out instructions (or popmenuing instructions and monitoring the league for sabotagers).  Tankers make it extremely easy to lead a hodgepodge team or league of random people and to take point on all the dangerous things that could kill them, especially if running +4 content.  Taunt+Gauntlet simply work wonders for making sure the obligatory melee Dominator doesn't eat anything other than collateral Foot Stomps.

 

When casually speedrunning task forces, a single Tanker can still be useful in a full team of Blasters and Scrappers by grouping inefficient spawndefs together for the team to nuke down, or to drag an AV to another AV and not have them run away the second they see a Hot Feet being used.  Some examples where a Tanker can save time in speedruns are: Rider spawns in LGTF (wide spawns), Crimson in LRSF (runs from Hot Feet), Viridian in MLTF (can be pulled to Shadow Spider, runs from Hot Feet), the patrons in MLTF (Pull Scirocco and GW together), mob grouping in Market Crash mission 3 (line-of-sight the skiffs and to pull Castillo to PBAoE range of Prototype), Reichman's AVs in Kahn (they have tons of range), and interrupting Reichsman's invulnerability phase in Barracuda (Needs line-of-sighting and runs from Hot Feet).  Ultimately better still to have another Fire/Fire Blaster on the team instead when pushing for world record, but replacing one speedrun AT with a Tanker won't actually be much of a time loss if they utilize their strengths well.

 

6 minutes ago, Rinwen said:

B.3) I've read the "damage is king in this game" many, many times, so I suspect there's some truth there. 

 

This is mostly because of inspirations.  Purple inspirations in particular are exceedingly powerful compared to the others, nullfying any real need to slot for defense when used wisely and red inspirations are also very influential, both allowing for skipping out on buff sets in optimized teams.  If you take a Blaster and a Tanker and buff them both to every cap, they're both undefeatable but the Blaster will deal significantly more damage.  Basically, the damage ATs scale way harder because there's no enemies designed to require the defensive ATs' scaling to survive.  But most people don't play PacMan with inspirations, making Tankers very useful as team/league leading and why I highlighted how a lone Tanker in a speedrun team can still contribute quite well.  You can think of a Tanker as a defensive support whose efficacy is mostly determined by how well you play it, rather than the powerset or build that you chose.

 

Hope this helps!