Team Buffs - diminishing returns

[Troo]

Thoughts?

[Carnifax]

For Def and Resist, until you hit caps, the opposite is true. The closer you are to your cap the more useful each % becomes.

 

If Mr Scrapper is sitting at 50% resist to something and I come along with 25% I've allowed them to take twice the damage they normally could. If they had 0 it's just 25% extra survivability. This is even better for ATs with higher caps like Tanks and Brutes. 

 

Similarly if I'm on 35% def and someone gives me just 10% more on average I'll be hit just 1/3 as often.

 

Of course once you hit a cap the excess becomes less important but even then the buffer is useful for soaking up debuffs. This is useful for sets with no DDR.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

38 minutes ago, Troo said:

Thoughts?

Are you asking if diminishing returns a la ED should be applied to all buffs from multiple sources?

So first layer of maneuvers is 100%, second is 50%, etc?

[Coyotedancer]

I suspect so...

 

It would certainly make ship raids and such a... different experience, let's say. iTrials likewise. 

[macskull]

"Hey guys let's take the I13 PvP changes and make them apply to PvE, surely nothing bad will come of this"

 

I mean, if you want to make the game "challenging" again even for stacked teams this is definitely the way to do it, but the mass player exodus to the servers that chose not to implement such asinine sweeping balance changes would probably kill the server.

Edited February 21, 2021 by macskull

[ScarySai]

Words can't describe how awful this would be.

[Troo]

20 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Are you asking if diminishing returns a la ED should be applied to all buffs from multiple sources?

So first layer of maneuvers is 100%, second is 50%, etc?

We have seen mentions in several areas that suggest team buffs have an impact on difficulty.

 

Obviously minimal impact on solo play while it definitely could have an impact on steamroller teams. But what about casual teams?

As @macskull points out, changes to team buffs if handled poorly could be a tad disliked.

 

Damage sponge characters might not notice as much as squishies for some team buffs but may well for others.

 

While not a fan of the idea, maybe there is something I am missing.

[Carnifax]

Actually something I was thinking. Should buffs be subject to the same level modifiers / penalties that debuffs are.

 

For example -ToHit debuffs kinda get hit by a double whammy Vs higher diff mobs (reduced efficiency and the enemy has increased acc) where a +Def self buff just has to worry about 1 adverse modifier (higher acc).

 

Of course Vs AVs I wouldn't be looking at reducing buffs by 85%. That'd be mean.

 

Honestly I think the horse has long bolted on this anyway and a change like that would be too disruptive anyway but was just a random thought I had.

[Yomo Kimyata]

This goes back to the "Are IOs standard?" question.  If I'm used to playing solo, and I've built accordingly, buffs from teammates are mostly irrelevant.  

[Snarky]

Thought...people should stop coming up with new ways to nerf how other players use their powers.

 

 

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

Thought...people should stop coming up with new ways to nerf how other players use their powers.

 

 

But what about how people are using other people powers.. that's different isn't it? 😁

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Thought...people should stop coming up with new ways to nerf how other players use their powers.

 

 

Lots of people trying to re-invent the wheel with square bricks, it's humorous to think about - but generally unwanted.

[Luminara]

Wouldn't that place buffs and buffers at a distinct disadvantage in comparison to debuffs?  Seems a bit unbalanced.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Lots of people trying to re-invent the wheel with square bricks, it's humorous to think about - but generally unwanted.

Use lots of very tiny bricks and you won't notice.

[oedipus_tex]

Wouldn't be against this for buffs like Destiny actually. Although I think there are cleaner ways of handling it.  

[Doomguide2005]

1.  Whaaat!?

2. Oh hell no.

3. Why, what is the perceived problem this is supposed to solve?

4.  /jranger.       ... and Nerf Regen while you're at it.

5.  Okay so ED for stuff already effected by ED.  

6.  Basic gamemastering 101 tip:  It's far, far easier to give more reward than to nerf/take back 'things'.  Tends to piss off your players.  They may or may not get over it.  This might not apply here, sort of, you did ask "thoughts?" and I'm getting old, the mind wanders at times.

7.  Lolz, you're kidding right?  What do you mean 'No I'm not.'?

8.  One of the great things frequently said about this game is that its buffs, debuffs and mez actually do something compared to many games out there ... and you want to do what again?  It's part of the reason the whole dynamic of Tank, Healer, DPS is not a thing in CoX

9. Did I mention I think this is a really bad idea.  I mean really, really bad.  Really.

10.  I think it's a safe bet the entirety of the RO Network would pretty much universally say, "No thanks".

11. Solo will become even more common.  This is an anti-team/teaming idea.

12. 'Brzzzzt', try again.  Please.

13. Read number 8 again.  And again for emphasis.

14. Nope, no, wtf no thank you.

 

[Sailboat]

I'm fine with it, but it doesn't go far enough.  If we're gonna do this, diminishing returns on DAMAGE dealing too.

 

Seriously, the game already prioritizes damage over all. If yer gonna nerf team buffs, in the gamer that makes team buffs great, nerf damage too.  Live with it.

[Snarky]

25 minutes ago, Sailboat said:

I'm fine with it, but it doesn't go far enough.  If we're gonna do this, diminishing returns on DAMAGE dealing too.

 

Seriously, the game already prioritizes damage over all. If yer gonna nerf team buffs, in the gamer that makes team buffs great, nerf damage too.  Live with it.

you may be onto something.  i think we cut cut everybody's armor, defense and resist by a scaling amount, of 50-100 in inverse proportion to the number of teammates.  the ones on the map at least.  that would bring it all into balance,

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Sailboat said:

I'm fine with it, but it doesn't go far enough.  If we're gonna do this, diminishing returns on DAMAGE dealing too.

 

Seriously, the game already prioritizes damage over all. If yer gonna nerf team buffs, in the gamer that makes team buffs great, nerf damage too.  Live with it.

     It's not so much that the game prioritizes damage, that's going to remain THE priority unless the game is heavily rewritten so the only rewards gained are for clicking glowies, rescuing hostages and other goals that don't require defeating anything to advance.  It's more a matter of just straight up dealing damage is the most efficient method.  Our buffs, debuffs and mezzes ironically have become less potent relative to the ability of the buffers, debuffers and mezzers to just plain join the ranks of dps rather than needing them to do their thing  so the 'actual' dps (both the ATs and the support currently engaged in dps) can safely do 'its' job.  Everyone is so simultaneously capable of mitigation and dealing damage (i.e. City of 'solo' Tank Mages teaming) that you get what @Yomo Kimyatastated above.   The buffs etc. haven't gotten weaker per se you can still get ridiculously potent support teams but why bother going through those prior (i.e.extra) steps when your support tank mage can go directly to Go and obliterate the mob himself rather than buff the other tank mage who can already also do it without your help. 

     To the question of the OP this is why it such a non-starter of an idea to place further DR on buffs/debuffs it won't for the most part have much impact on the endgame while it will be highly detrimental to teams of non-tank mages at all levels of the game.

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, macskull said:

"Hey guys let's take the I13 PvP changes and make them apply to PvE, surely nothing bad will come of this"

 

I mean, if you want to make the game "challenging" again even for stacked teams this is definitely the way to do it, but the mass player exodus to the servers that chose not to implement such asinine sweeping balance changes would probably kill the server.

Nah that's okay, the 10-15 people who think wholesale balance changes to a game this old would still be around to play with another. /s

 

EDIT: And before anyone gets offended, relax, it's a joke. lol

 

But Mac's point still stands.

Edited February 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[Shred Monkey]

#NerfTeamSize

[Hew]

This is the worst possible idea that could ever have been uttered.

 

You do realize that, in appropriate content, multiplicative assist is REQUIRED?

 

I would love to see someone try The Hard Way where total team buffs are 1/3rd what they currently are, or something equally foolish.

 

You want more challenge? Play the content _already in game_ appropriate to the challenge you want.

 

+4/8 council is NOT A CHALLENGE. 

 

[Troo]

On 2/22/2021 at 4:14 AM, Hew said:

This is the worst possible idea that could ever have been uttered.

That's a pretty high bar

[TemporalVileTerror]

It honestly feels like an issue has been challenged . . . to come up with THE worst idea possible.

 

Hmm . . . let's see . . . 

 

Experience points naturally decay over time, so you have to constantly earn or else you de-level.  Logging out only slows it down to 1/10th the decay speed.  But, at the same time, every person you team with has a random chance to end up siphoning the Experience points you lose . . . you just don't know unless they say so.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 2/22/2021 at 6:14 AM, Hew said:

I would love to see someone try The Hard Way where total team buffs are 1/3rd what they currently are, or something equally foolish.

 

Have you met this playerbase? It'd be done the same day as the change.