Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Wavicle]

I do feel a little bad for Kinetics users who use Inertial Reduction as their travel power. The original intent of that design definitely was to allow Kinetics to skip travel powers although they still can do so it's a lot less appealing than it used to be.

[Arnabas]

I am a bit unclear on something.

You mention that "Classic travel powers (Fly, Super Speed, etc) should be on even footing with Origin Pool travel powers - and ideally, be better at the core thing they do (running, flying,  jumping)," which I agree with (I dislike Mystic Flight being as fast as true Flight and Translocation having the same range as true Teleport, for example) but then according to the above, they have the same values anyway.

What am I missing?

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, Arnabas said:

I am a bit unclear on something.

You mention that "Classic travel powers (Fly, Super Speed, etc) should be on even footing with Origin Pool travel powers - and ideally, be better at the core thing they do (running, flying,  jumping)," which I agree with (I dislike Mystic Flight being as fast as true Flight and Translocation having the same range as true Teleport, for example) but then according to the above, they have the same values anyway.

What am I missing?

The base values between Origin and Travel powers are being made the same, the Travel powers just have more benefits, like longer hover time on Teleport (that can be instantly cancelled) and Fly receiving a fight speed boost power (which has been renamed with Afterburner when that power was replaced with Evasive Maneuvers).

[Jimmy]

I've had to hide some posts (and some replies to those posts). Please remember if you see something out of line, it's best to report it instead of reply. Your reply will get hidden if the post you quoted gets hidden, no matter how reasonable your post is.

[InvaderStych]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:42 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

We are looking at possible workarounds but no promises at this time, its just an artifact of how the animation system works. Currently, manually turning on hover is the only solution.

 

Apologies if I missed any additional replies in this vein while glossing over the intense discussion in which I had no dogs, but is there any possibility that a Stance solution might be applied for Hover/Fly?

 

Same method as the recent addition of Ninja/Beast run stances?

 

 

[Jimmy]

11 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Apologies if I missed any additional replies in this vein while glossing over the intense discussion in which I had no dogs, but is there any possibility that a Stance solution might be applied for Hover/Fly?

 

Same method as the recent addition of Ninja/Beast run stances?

 

 

The short answer is that it doesn't work that way unfortunately, but Powerhouse is looking into alternative options!

[Aracknight]

My feedback/question is about Infiltration.

 

Feedback:  I think Infiltration is a pretty awesome power.  On my MA/SR scrapper, I was able to aasily get to the "old" speed cap of 92 mph running and 78 mph jumping with only Infiltration and Sprint activated.  Ultimately, it put me at the old speed cap for running and jumping (if not jump height) while giving me more jump height and using less endurance than Sprint+Ninja Run which I use on live.  Plus, I was able to reduce my end usage by slotting winter's gift into Infiltration, and double my stealth radius with the Celerity stealth io I keep in Sprint.  

 

So the net result (for me) by replacing Ninja Run with Infiltration is higher and faster jumping, faster running, less end usage, and more stealth!  Winning all the way around!  Really, really digging this power.  Plus I can easily set a macro to switch costumes to a stance with Ninja Run when I toggle on Infiltration.  Neat!

 

My question about Infiltration is:

 

I understand the difference between in- and out-of-combat defense, and why it is pertinent. Same thing with stealth dropping in combat.  However, I do wonder why the speed portions of Infiltration seem to turn off when I enter combat, whether ranged or melee.  Defense dropping, I understand.  Stealth dropping, I understand.  But the travel portion dropping?  Bug or WAI?

 

Thanks.

 

 

PS:  Can you consider having SR's Elude power "Increase the cap" of jumping and running like the new travel powers do?  Thematically, since it's a click with a duration and a crash, I think it'd be a neat fit to a power that in the age of IOs isn't really necessary for the defense portion of the power (although the +Recovery remains awesome).

[gameboy1234]

15 hours ago, Duck-Smokes-Quack said:

I think these chanes are cool and love them - not sure why people seem so angry (mostly about fly) Fly deserves to be the slowest.

 

Don't forget that Fly+Afterburner is two power picks.  It should be equivalent in speed and utility to something like taking Super Speed+ Super Jump.  Especially now that a travel power is just one pick and not two, any Travel Power + A Power that enhances that travel power should be the same, or around the same, in terms of utility and convenience for the player.

 

I ran two travel powers on many toons back in the day (including a MM with Teleport + Hover, no 15s bs for me, I just stayed in the air as long as I wanted).  The new powers are great, but I think we have to keep in mind that there are some other options players have and ways of comparing powers need to be thought of in terms of the current powers, not how we used to do it way back when.

 

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

The short answer is that it doesn't work that way unfortunately, but Powerhouse is looking into alternative options!

I take it the fly poses can't be included as a selectable default stance while moving, while we're on topic?

Edited March 16, 2021 by ScarySai

[Arcanum]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

I take it the fly poses can't be included as a selectable default stance while moving, while we're on topic?

 

This is correct. It's something we've investigated previously and as Jimmy stated Powerhouse is looking into some alternative options!

[drake0699]

When it goes live, what will happen to enhancements that are in powers that become un-enhanceable? For example, if I have a LotG in Afterburner, where will it go?

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, drake0699 said:

When it goes live, what will happen to enhancements that are in powers that become un-enhanceable? For example, if I have a LotG in Afterburner, where will it go?

 

It goes into evasive since it's the same power slot and you're all set.

[drake0699]

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

It goes into evasive since it's the same power slot and you're all set.

OK that is good to know, thank you. I haven't looked yet, but someone might want to check to see if there will be any clashes between current and new slot-allowed enhancement types if they haven't already.

Edited March 16, 2021 by drake0699

[Tigraine]

4 minutes ago, drake0699 said:

OK that is good to know, thank you. I haven't looked yet, but someone might want to check to see if there will be any clashes between current and new slot-allowed enhancement types.

While I'm not crazy overall about HC's changes to the travel powers, one thing I will give them is that they at least seem to have made any reslotting unnecessary.  Any of the new powers seem to be able to take the same slotting as the ones they are replacing.

[gameboy1234]

I just gave this a quick test on Beta. Traveling from the north tram in IP to the northwest corner of the zone and back.

 

Super Speed + Super Jump: 2 min 20 seconds

 

Fly: 2 min 33 seconds.  I was able to use Afterburner twice in that time.

 

These times are VERY similar in my mind, Fly was only moments behind what someone with SS+SJ would do, and the travel in IP is nearly ideal for SS anyway.  I think in practical terms these differences aren't that big of a deal.  (And something I didn't realize but Afterburner is now a free power with Fly, so these two should not really be comparable in the first place.)

 

Also the interaction of Hover and Fly animations is kinda yucky, and the Hover animation at fly speeds doesn't look good.  But if you're traveling long distances you just shut it off?  Or are there other reasons to run Hover while you're traveling?  Maybe convenience, constantly having to adjust that one toggle could feel rather cumbersome.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by gameboy1234

[siolfir]

19 minutes ago, drake0699 said:

OK that is good to know, thank you. I haven't looked yet, but someone might want to check to see if there will be any clashes between current and new slot-allowed enhancement types if they haven't already.

Evasive Maneuvers takes the same sets as (live) Afterburner, and Infiltration still takes Defense sets so would take whatever is slotted in Invisibility; which is the long way of saying I think they already thought of that.

 

13 hours ago, Gorgar said:

If EM gets changed to provide defense as long as I don't attack, that would help my particular case.  I could taunt, deal with lowered defense for a bit, then it would come back without me having to toggle it off and back on.  Neat.

 

One thing that might have been missed is this post here, talking about how the defense will be adjusted in an upcoming patch:

This would, I believe, alleviate your concern?

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

Don't forget that Fly+Afterburner is two power picks.  It should be equivalent in speed and utility to something like taking Super Speed+ Super Jump.  Especially now that a travel power is just one pick and not two, any Travel Power + A Power that enhances that travel power should be the same, or around the same, in terms of utility and convenience for the player.

 

I ran two travel powers on many toons back in the day (including a MM with Teleport + Hover, no 15s bs for me, I just stayed in the air as long as I wanted).  The new powers are great, but I think we have to keep in mind that there are some other options players have and ways of comparing powers need to be thought of in terms of the current powers, not how we used to do it way back when.

 

Fly + Afterburner is only two picks on live. With the beta changes, it is 1 pick. Evasive Maneuvers replaces old Afterburner.

[gameboy1234]

1 minute ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Fly + Afterburner is only two picks on live. With the beta changes, it is 1 pick. Evasive Maneuvers replaces old Afterburner.

I added that, but I think it crossed with your post.  Yeah I picked up on that when I tested it.

[Aracknight]

I wonder if there is another solution to running multiple travel powers.

 

In the fighting pool, if you take boxing, kick, and cross punch, you get bonuses to each.  What if, in the same vein, they altered the travel powers so that, for example:

 

Fly stays the same.

Hover, stays the same, but adds flight control to Fly if you have both.

Evasive Maneuvers stays the same, but adds defense to Fly if you have both.

 

 

Super Jump stays the same

Combat Jumping stays the same, but adds jump control and immobilize protection to Super Jump if you have both.

Acrobatics stays the same, but adds knockback protection to Super Jump if you have both.

 

This way, you still have to take the powers to get the abilities you want, but you only have to have one toggle running, the main travel power.

 

 

Obviously I've left a couple of defense bonuses out because this was off the top of my head, but maybe it splits the difference.

[Bopper]

51 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I just gave this a quick test on Beta. Traveling from the north tram in IP to the northwest corner of the zone and back.

 

Super Speed + Super Jump: 2 min 20 seconds

 

Fly: 2 min 33 seconds.  I was able to use Afterburner twice in that time.

 

These times are VERY similar in my mind, Fly was only moments behind what someone with SS+SJ would do, and the travel in IP is nearly ideal for SS anyway.  I think in practical terms these differences aren't that big of a deal.  (And something I didn't realize but Afterburner is now a free power with Fly, so these two should not really be comparable in the first place.)

 

Also the interaction of Hover and Fly animations is kinda yucky, and the Hover animation at fly speeds doesn't look good.  But if you're traveling long distances you just shut it off?  Or are there other reasons to run Hover while you're traveling?  Maybe convenience, constantly having to adjust that one toggle could feel rather cumbersome.

 

Great data point. 153s flight time versus 140s flight time, you're basically covering 91.5% of the distance per unit time.

 

If you don't mind, can you expand on your results? What was your slotting? Or better yet, what were your run/jump/fly/afterburner speeds?

[Tigraine]

8 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I wonder if there is another solution to running multiple travel powers.

 

In the fighting pool, if you take boxing, kick, and cross punch, you get bonuses to each.  What if, in the same vein, they altered the travel powers so that, for example:

 

Fly stays the same.

Hover, stays the same, but adds flight control to Fly if you have both.

Evasive Maneuvers stays the same, but adds defense to Fly if you have both.

 

 

Super Jump stays the same

Combat Jumping stays the same, but adds jump control and immobilize protection to Super Jump if you have both.

Acrobatics stays the same, but adds knockback protection to Super Jump if you have both.

 

This way, you still have to take the powers to get the abilities you want, but you only have to have one toggle running, the main travel power.

 

 

Obviously I've left a couple of defense bonuses out because this was off the top of my head, but maybe it splits the difference.

 

To clarify, are you suggesting that if these changes were made, the powers should go back to being mutually exclusive, i.e., you can only have one running at a time?  Or just that with these changes, you would only need to have one running at a time, but could still potentially activate more than one?

Edited March 16, 2021 by Tigraine

[Aracknight]

22 minutes ago, Tigraine said:

 

To clarify, are you suggesting that if these changes were made, the powers should go back to being mutually exclusive, i.e., you can only have one running at a time?  Or just that with these changes, you would only need to have one running at a time, but could still potentially activate more than one?

Mutually exclusive, I guess, since I'm suggesting a way to minimize toggles.

[Arbegla]

33 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

I wonder if there is another solution to running multiple travel powers.

 

In the fighting pool, if you take boxing, kick, and cross punch, you get bonuses to each.  What if, in the same vein, they altered the travel powers so that, for example:

 

Fly stays the same.

Hover, stays the same, but adds flight control to Fly if you have both.

Evasive Maneuvers stays the same, but adds defense to Fly if you have both.

 

 

Super Jump stays the same

Combat Jumping stays the same, but adds jump control and immobilize protection to Super Jump if you have both.

Acrobatics stays the same, but adds knockback protection to Super Jump if you have both.

 

This way, you still have to take the powers to get the abilities you want, but you only have to have one toggle running, the main travel power.

 

 

Obviously I've left a couple of defense bonuses out because this was off the top of my head, but maybe it splits the difference.

 

I really like this idea as it gives more power customization and lets you decide if you want to burn more endurance to have the larger movement speed and the bonuses, or retain the individual bonuses at a lower endurance cost, as the travel powers themselves usually cost more than the 'bonus' powers. Hover end cost vs Fly end cost, Cj vs Sj, etc.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

I wonder if there is another solution to running multiple travel powers.

 

In the fighting pool, if you take boxing, kick, and cross punch, you get bonuses to each.  What if, in the same vein, they altered the travel powers so that, for example:

 

Fly stays the same.

Hover, stays the same, but adds flight control to Fly if you have both.

Evasive Maneuvers stays the same, but adds defense to Fly if you have both.

 

 

Super Jump stays the same

Combat Jumping stays the same, but adds jump control and immobilize protection to Super Jump if you have both.

Acrobatics stays the same, but adds knockback protection to Super Jump if you have both.

 

This way, you still have to take the powers to get the abilities you want, but you only have to have one toggle running, the main travel power.

 

 

Obviously I've left a couple of defense bonuses out because this was off the top of my head, but maybe it splits the difference.

Sadly, this wouldn't work.  The issue trying to be "solved" is letting folks stack up benefits instead of following the original Dev rules that state no 2 toggles of the same travel benefit may stack (sans Sprint).

 

Instead of throwing the rule out completely, they adapted it to a more modern take where the benefits overlap but not the toggle state.

 

This is explicitly to provide additional benefits to players for running toggles across multiple pools, so same-pool synergy won't suffice.

 

As an example, it wouldn't help Combat Jumping + Infiltration; or any further design in this space.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Replacement

[Aracknight]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

This wouldn't work.  The issue trying to be "solved" is letting folks stack up benefits instead of following the original Dev rules that state no 2 toggles of the same travel benefit may stack (sans Sprint).

 

Instead of throwing the rule out completely, they adapted it to a more modern take where the benefits overlap but not the toggle state (allowing us to get Hover's defense and Fly's speed at the same time, for example).

 

Synergy bonuses like this don't solve that core issue -- they don't let you run Infiltration + Combat Jumping, for example.

I don't disagree with you, except for on what is being solved.  Right now some people have an issue with hover's animation overriding fly's because they want the benefits of both.  This pushes the benefits of hover into fly, and solves the animation issue, not to mention the endurance issue of running more than one toggle.

 

Now, while I agree that this does nothing to let you run infiltration and combat jumping together, that wasn't really the problem I was aiming at. 

 

Truthfully, if I had to do it, I'd arrange the travel powers like so:

 

T-1: Single target attack.  (Air superiority, teleport target, flurry, jump kick)

T-2: Combat version (Combat Jumping, Hover, Combat Teleport, Combat Speed(doesn't exist, i know.  you get the point))

T-3: Full version (Super Speed, Fly, Super Jump, Teleport)

T-4: Group version (Click powers, not toggles.  Group Fly, Inertial reduction, group teleport, something for speed.  Essentially a click to give the group a travel power for a duration.  And of course, the ability for null the gull to cancel it)

T-5: Multi target attack (Spring attack, fold space, something for fly, whirlwind)

 

The pop up tray/bonus power is an interesting idea, but more people seem to not like it than like it.   I also get that I've taken out Acrobatics and Hasten to include a group jump and speed power and that might obviously upset folks.  But, change always does.   Compromise was once explained to me as "no one feels they got nothing, and no one feels the other side got everything."

 

Infiltration is a niche case.  I've longed for a ninja run style power that could be slotted, and sliding it over into concealment is an interesting take on it that I had not considered because its both a run and a jump power.  But, that being said, I dig it and have been having fun trying it out on test.

 

All of these are, of course, only my ideas, and I don't even like all of them.    But there can be interesting ways of doing it differently and in the name of balance and fun combined, which is where I think the devs are trying to go.

 

Anyway.  See you in the City.