Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (FLY POOL) - Build 2

[Captain Citadel]

It's unfortunate that coding issues prevent the flight powers from being fully customized. I like the "Magneto flight" pose, but only while I'm hovering because it just doesn't look right to me at Fly and Afterburner speeds. I'll just have to keep toggling between Fly and Hover like before. Having a tailor setting to make Fly override Hover while toggled would be perfect, but I'm glad it works for people who wanted it the other way.

[VV]

On 3/20/2021 at 11:50 AM, GM Arcanum said:

• •  Fly +  Hover
    • Previously: These powers couldn't be used together - you had to choose between Fly's speed and Hover's defensive buff
    • Now: You'll gain the fly speed of Fly, along with the air control and defensive bonus of Hover

Pool: Flight

•  Hover
  • Added new customization themes that allows you to remove the hover animation
•  Fly
  • Now increases your fly speed cap by 50% while toggled on (from 58.6mph to 87.9mph)
    • This increased cap is the equivalent of fully slotting the old version of Afterburner
      • You now get this for free, without picking two more powers, and without old Afterburner's Only Affect Self component
    • This means Fly speed buffs and enhancements actually matter, as you won't hit the new cap without them
    • This increased cap doesn't apply in PvP
  •  Afterburner
    • Now built into Fly as a free secondary (server tray) power that doesn't require a power pick
      • If you already had Fly, you will now also have Afterburner for free
    • Now a timed toggle with a 30 second duration and a 60 second cooldown
    • Increases flight speed cap by a further 25% (to 102.27mph), and speeds you up to the cap
      • This allows Fly to match Super Jump's new speed cap for short bursts of time (it wouldn't be appropriate to have Fly match that speed permanently)
      • Note that the old speed cap that fully-slotted Afterburner previously allowed you to reach is now built into Fly for free, you don't need to use this new version of Afterburner to reach that speed
    • No longer applies Only Affect Self or any other effects - Evasive Maneuvers has inherited most of Afterburner's old defensive effects
    • Null the Gull will allow you to hide Afterburner's pop-up tray
•  Evasive Maneuvers
  • Replaces the old version of Afterburner as Flight's tier 5 power
    • If you previously had Afterburner, you now have Evasive Maneuvers
    • Note that if you previously had Fly, you will now have the new version of Afterburner for free
  • Toggle with moderate endurance cost, aimed at providing you with excellent airborne combat mobility
    • Evasive Maneuvers is not intended as a travel power, it is a defensive combat mobility power
  • Whilst flying, this power provides:
    • Protection against -fly and immobilize, and some resistance to knockback
      • The knockback resistance has been reduced from the previous iteration (it was an erroneously extremely strong)
    • A small amount of flight speed
      • This flight speed is not affected by travel suppression, allowing you to remain mobile in combat
    • Good air control (the same level that Afterburner previously provided)
  • Also provides the same level of defense as old Afterburner while out of combat, but this is removed while in combat
    • This bonus is suppressed for 10s when entering combat (the same as Stealth's out-of-combat defence)
    • The defense bonuses will suppress if the user attacks, heals or buffs an ally, or interacts with a mission objective
      • No longer cancels when being hit by a foe
  • Fixed a bug where the speed buffs on this power would be intermittent while used only with Group Fly
  • Endurance cost reduced from 0.52/s to 0.26/s

Well, this is all awesome. Couple of questions. So, if Hover+Fly=maneuverability+speed, what does Hover+Fly+EM get you? Or are Hover and EM exclusive?

Also, does Hover interact similarly with Sorcery Flight?

Lastly, does it combine with any of the rocket packs?

[zenblack]

28 minutes ago, VV said:

Well, this is all awesome. Couple of questions. So, if Hover+Fly=maneuverability+speed, what does Hover+Fly+EM get you? Or are Hover and EM exclusive?

Also, does Hover interact similarly with Sorcery Flight?

Lastly, does it combine with any of the rocket packs?

 

This thread should probably be stickied so it's easier to find but the answer to some of your questions

 

 

Jetpacks recieve no bonus they remain at the previous (Live) cap.

[siolfir]

10 hours ago, cotesan said:

Devs hear me out. 
combining fly with afterburner toggle is a big mistake. It is a choice and what makes some heros stand out. It should be separate. I don’t like having hero’s homogenized. Let it remain how it is and add to the pool if anything but let the ones who opt for afterburner be the ones who benefit from it. 

Slot investment and enhancement choices are the new choice. It's no more or less homogenous this way.

 

Previously having Fly by itself was capped, and you could raise the cap by slotting Afterburner, which would change the speed that you can fly at. Now you can slot Fly to change the speed that you can fly at. What a novel concept, slotting the power you're trying to improve in order to get more effect out of it.

Edited March 22, 2021 by siolfir
rearranging

[UberGuy]

2 hours ago, VV said:

Well, this is all awesome. Couple of questions. So, if Hover+Fly=maneuverability+speed, what does Hover+Fly+EM get you? Or are Hover and EM exclusive?

Also, does Hover interact similarly with Sorcery Flight?

Lastly, does it combine with any of the rocket packs?

 

Different of these powers may grant you slightly different things, including:

• +fly "magnitude", which counters things that try to remove your ability to fly
• fly speed (the speed you reach after acceleration from rest)
• movement control (acceleration from a stop)
• movement friction (drag that causes you to come to a rest faster after moving)

Broadly, the highest attributes from the total set of powers you're running wins. Evasive Maneuvers is the exception, as it stacks with the other effects. So basically it's "highest attribs from everything else, + EvMa".

 

These things work with the temp flys, but you can only run one temp fly at a time (since running multiples would just burn endurance to no gain).

[Glacier Peak]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:17 PM, CaptainLupis said:

Oh well, my statement that it was useful for MMs and defenders didn't hold true for long...

 

Other than so that people don't have to respec, keeping defence in the new power does seem pretty pointless the way it has been implemented now. Ah well.

 

It seems the second build may or may not have fixed the bug I reported: 

 

To clarify, when I logged on to the beta and created a new Mastermind character, auto leveled them to 50 and selected an assortment of powers up to being able to unlock Evasive Maneuvers, I then headed to RWZ to test the power. When I zoned in, the defense bonus displayed in my combat attributes that the buff was applied, but not actually giving me the bonus

 

Spoiler

 

 

(and after reading the whole thread, I see that it is not displaying in Combat Attributes sometimes). I am curious though, how do I test whether the bug I reported earlier was addressed in the second build if I can't trust the Combat Attributes window. Any guidance would be appreciated from my fellow testers!

 

Edit 2: Also, the defense buff percentage (13.50%) doesn't change regardless of whether I am attempting to buff or heal my pet, or use the attack command or heal myself/my pets. Again, difficult to test this power if I can't trust the display.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Faultline
Deleting attachments per request.

[cotesan]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Slot investment and enhancement choices are the new choice. It's no more or less homogenous this way.

 

Previously having Fly by itself was capped, and you could raise the cap by slotting Afterburner, which would change the speed that you can fly at. Now you can slot Fly to change the speed that you can fly at. What a novel concept, slotting the power you're trying to improve in order to get more effect out of it.

Not in my pov. It is homogenizing. Slotting is always viablle, nothing new. Adding to the flight pool/ stackable.. all good. Afterburner as a click is not something I’m happy about. It is limiting our choices and character customization. 

[Glacier Peak]

19 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Basically, two things. 
 

1. The zone bug is in effect for Evasive Maneuvers (toggling corrects this until they patch a fix).

 

2. The Evasive Maneuvers Defense buff always shows up in the power attributes, even though the buff acts as it should based on the patch notes. This appears to be a display glitch.

 

 

Aside from both of these minor issues, Evasive Maneuvers appears to be good to go.

I can't seem to confirm or deny whether Build 2 fixed the Mastermind Evasive Maneuvers bug where the power continued to provide the defense buff while the Mastermind used pet commands (to attack for example). Because I am not sure how to get around testing this due to the display bug you mentioned, I can't figure out if it was fixed.

[macskull]

18 minutes ago, cotesan said:

Not in my pov. It is homogenizing. Slotting is always viablle, nothing new. Adding to the flight pool/ stackable.. all good. Afterburner as a click is not something I’m happy about. It is limiting our choices and character customization. 

I'm not entirely sure how this is true, since Afterburner becoming a sub-power of Fly means you can drop Evasive Maneuvers if you're so inclined. This frees up a power pick you didn't previously have which is by definition increases choice and character customization ability.

[twozerofoxtrot]

17 minutes ago, cotesan said:

Not in my pov. It is homogenizing. Slotting is always viablle, nothing new. Adding to the flight pool/ stackable.. all good. Afterburner as a click is not something I’m happy about. It is limiting our choices and character customization. 

 

Thought experiment:

 

Imagine Afterburner and Evasive Maneuvers have their names switched in this beta build. Afterburner is still a T4 Flight Pool pick, but with some adjustments to the power's function (no longer OAS, defense suppresses in combat). Evasive Maneuvers gives you 30 seconds of zoooom on a 90 second CD.

 

How do you feel now?

 

 

[cotesan]

8 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Thought experiment:

 

Imagine Afterburner and Evasive Maneuvers have their names switched in this beta build. Afterburner is still a T4 Flight Pool pick, but with some adjustments to the power's function (no longer OAS, defense suppresses in combat). Evasive Maneuvers gives you 30 seconds of zoooom on a 90 second CD.

 

How do you feel now?

 

 

Not feeling it for reasons posted

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 minutes ago, cotesan said:

Not feeling it for reasons posted

 

Hmmm..

 

12 hours ago, cotesan said:

It should be separate. ... Let it remain how it is and add to the pool if anything but let the ones who opt for afterburner be the ones who benefit from it. 

 

Okay, well, that was answered. Next?

 

35 minutes ago, cotesan said:

Afterburner as a click is not something I’m happy about. It is limiting our choices and character customization. 

 

Okay, also addressed.

 

...

 

You know, any reasonable person who wasn't trying to be overly generous to you at this point would insist you're being obtuse, and possibly trolling.

[cotesan]

2 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Hmmm..

 

 

Okay, well, that was answered. Next?

 

 

Okay, also addressed.

 

...

 

You know, any reasonable person who wasn't trying to be overly generous to you at this point would insist you're being obtuse, and possibly trolling.

Devs thanks for hearing my feedback

[Arcanum]

Travel Power Updates

This update brings a wide range of buffs for travel pools, a brand new travel power (as part of an update to the Concealment pool), and some mechanical improvements to how travel powers work. Our goals with these changes were as follows:

1. Real travel powers (ie: actual power picks) should always be a significant step up over the free options (free jet packs should not be almost the same speed as Fly at level 50)
2. Real travel powers should never cause you to lose something you've already got (turning on Super Speed shouldn't cause you to lose Ninja Run's jump buff)
3. Classic travel powers (Fly, Super Speed, etc) should be on even footing with Origin Pool travel powers - and ideally, be better at the core thing they do (running, flying,  jumping)
4. Slotting travel powers for speed should actually matter (looking at you, Fly)
5. Free (prestige / temporary) travel powers shouldn't be made any slower than they are currently, but the gap between free and real travel powers needs to be made clear - the result being that real travel powers are now much faster (by boosting you above the standard speed caps), and free travel powers now cost more endurance than real travel powers

Note: This pass is primarily aimed at the mobility of each set - other aspects (ie: the attacks) were not in the scope of these changes, but may be looked at in the future.

 

Check out Bopper's detailed breakdown of these changes here

 

Gotta Go Fast

 

Travel Power Stacking

• Almost all travel powers are no longer mutually exclusive and can be activated at the same time, but only the strongest buff of each type (run speed, jump speed, jump height, fly speed) will apply
  • This ensures that every power you pick or activate will only ever improve your mobility
  •  Fly +  Hover
    • Previously: These powers couldn't be used together - you had to choose between Fly's speed and Hover's defensive buff
    • Now: You'll gain the fly speed of Fly, along with the air control and defensive bonus of Hover

Level Scaling

• Travel powers no longer increase in strength as you level up, the previous level 50 values now apply at all levels
• Travel speed caps no longer increase in strength as you level up, the previous level 50 values now apply at all levels

Pool: Flight

•  Hover
  • Added new customization themes that allows you to remove the hover animation
•  Fly
  • Now increases your fly speed cap by 50% while toggled on (from 58.6mph to 87.9mph)
    • This increased cap is the equivalent of fully slotting the old version of Afterburner
      • You now get this for free, without picking two more powers, and without old Afterburner's Only Affect Self component
    • This means Fly speed buffs and enhancements actually matter, as you won't hit the new cap without them
    • This increased cap doesn't apply in PvP
  •  Afterburner
    • Now built into Fly as a free secondary (server tray) power that doesn't require a power pick
      • If you already had Fly, you will now also have Afterburner for free
    • Now a timed toggle with a 30 second duration and a 60 second cooldown
    • Increases flight speed cap by a further 25% (to 102.27mph), and speeds you up to the cap
      • This allows Fly to match Super Jump's new speed cap for short bursts of time (it wouldn't be appropriate to have Fly match that speed permanently)
      • Note that the old speed cap that fully-slotted Afterburner previously allowed you to reach is now built into Fly for free, you don't need to use this new version of Afterburner to reach that speed
    • No longer applies Only Affect Self or any other effects - Evasive Maneuvers has inherited most of Afterburner's old defensive effects
    • Null the Gull will allow you to hide Afterburner's pop-up tray
• Group Fly
  • This power now applies to all pets regardless of their distance from the caster
  • No longer inaccurately claims it applies -Acc
•  Evasive Maneuvers
  • Replaces the old version of Afterburner as Flight's tier 5 power
    • If you previously had Afterburner, you now have Evasive Maneuvers
    • Note that if you previously had Fly, you will now have the new version of Afterburner for free
  • Toggle with moderate endurance cost, aimed at providing you with excellent airborne combat mobility
    • Evasive Maneuvers is not intended as a travel power, it is a defensive combat mobility power
  • Whilst flying, this power provides:
    • Protection against -fly and immobilize, and some resistance to knockback
      • The knockback resistance has been reduced from the previous iteration (it was an erroneously extremely strong)
    • A small amount of flight speed
      • This flight speed is not affected by travel suppression, allowing you to remain mobile in combat
    • Good air control (the same level that Afterburner previously provided)
  • Also provides the same level of defense as old Afterburner while out of combat, but this is removed while in combat
    • This bonus is suppressed for 10s when entering combat (the same as Stealth's out-of-combat defence)
    • The defense bonuses will suppress if the user attacks, heals or buffs an ally, or interacts with a mission objective
      • No longer cancels when being hit by a foe
  • Fixed a bug where the speed buffs on this power would be intermittent while used only with Group Fly
  • Endurance cost reduced from 0.52/s to 0.26/s

Peacebringer

•  Energy Flight
  • Mirrored all i27, Page 2 changes for Fly
  •  Quantum Acceleration
    • Now built into Energy Flight as a free secondary (server tray) power that doesn't require a power pick
    • Mirrored all i27, Page 2 changes for Afterburner
    • Note that Quantum Acceleration shares a cooldown with Afterburner
•  Combat Flight
  • Combat Flight's defensive buff is mutually exclusive with Hover's defensive buff
•  Quantum Flight
  • Endurance cost reduced from 2.6/s to 0.65/s
  • This puts the endurance cost in line with Phase Shift
•  Quantum Maneuvers
  • Replaces Quantum Acceleration as a picked power
    • If you previously had Quantum Acceleration, you now have Quantum Maneuvers
    • Note that you will also still have Quantum Acceleration as it's now built into Energy Flight
  • Mechanically identical to Evasive Maneuvers, but prettier
  • Note that Quantum Maneuvers cannot be active at the same time as Evasive Maneuvers
  • Fixed incorrect power icon
• Fixed various VFX bugs with Peacebringer fly powers

Edited March 22, 2021 by GM Arcanum

[Arcanum]

Due to the numerous conversations revolving around the fly pool, the forms have been separated.

 

You may provide feedback concerning the Fly pool here.

You may provide feedback regarding other Travel Pool Changes here.

Edited March 22, 2021 by GM Arcanum

[ScarySai]

The defense should exist to keep the lotg in and maybe add some cushioning on an approach, it should not be the focus of the discussion with the pool rework, and it frankly annoys me that people are so focused on that and not the sheer mobility improvements EV-MA offers.

 

Like is this really that controversial? You can control your fliers better now, yay.

Edited March 22, 2021 by ScarySai
My first line flew away.

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I can't seem to confirm or deny whether Build 2 fixed the Mastermind Evasive Maneuvers bug where the power continued to provide the defense buff while the Mastermind used pet commands (to attack for example). Because I am not sure how to get around testing this due to the display bug you mentioned, I can't figure out if it was fixed.

 

From what I understand, that's basically not a bug and intended.  While a Mastermind commands pets, the defense buff in Evasive Maneuvers will continue to apply.  But as soon as the Mastermind uses a buff or heal, *boom.*  The defense buff in Evasive Maneuvers will no longer apply.  That also includes auras like Tactics.

[ScarySai]

I don't know how you guys do masterminds, but usually I'm not afraid to take a hit unless my minions all die.

 

And minions tend to die If you go totally afk, unless you're rocking /time or something. But time should already be softcapped, removing any advantage from exploiting evma somehow.

Edited March 22, 2021 by ScarySai

[Apparition]

In my point of view, Evasive Maneuvers is now perfect.  It just needs the two bugs fixed, (one of losing Evasive Maneuvers after zoning, and the other with the Evasive Maneuvers' speed buffs going intermittent after switching between Fly and Hover).

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I can't seem to confirm or deny whether Build 2 fixed the Mastermind Evasive Maneuvers bug where the power continued to provide the defense buff while the Mastermind used pet commands (to attack for example). Because I am not sure how to get around testing this due to the display bug you mentioned, I can't figure out if it was fixed.

Watch and see if the total Defense fluctuates while buffing the pets.

[CaptainLupis]

6 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

 

It seems the second build may or may not have fixed the bug I reported: 

 

To clarify, when I logged on to the beta and created a new Mastermind character, auto leveled them to 50 and selected an assortment of powers up to being able to unlock Evasive Maneuvers, I then headed to RWZ to test the power. When I zoned in, the defense bonus displayed in my combat attributes that the buff was applied, but not actually giving me the bonus

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(and after reading the whole thread, I see that it is not displaying in Combat Attributes sometimes). I am curious though, how do I test whether the bug I reported earlier was addressed in the second build if I can't trust the Combat Attributes window. Any guidance would be appreciated from my fellow testers!

 

Edit 2: Also, the defense buff percentage (13.50%) doesn't change regardless of whether I am attempting to buff or heal my pet, or use the attack command or heal myself/my pets. Again, difficult to test this power if I can't trust the display.

The only way I can think of to test it outside of the attribute monitor is to get an alt with as close to 45% def while using EM as you can then let some even con mobs (ones that don't do -def anyway) attack you. If you are doing nothing it should average out at around 1 hit in 20. Then start buffing and see if you suddenly start to get hit more regularly.

 

You could record the numbers of attacks and hits, but realistically you'd need to record hundreds, if not thousands, to get a statisticaly viable average, so personally I wouldn't bother with that, but even with a low number you should get a good idea as to whether it is just not reporting the correct figure in the attributes monitor or the power is still not working as intended.

[arthurh35353]

So I want to apologize here, too. I was very much over reacting here and feeling defensive and taking things far too personally. Stupid change in depression meds may have been messing with me. 😔

 

I am confused on the thought process on putting the afterburner toggle/click-toggle into flight itself. Even some of the verbiage seems to indicate that the afterburners 'increase fly cap' is listed as its reason, but isn't Fly getting its buff as just part of the Page 2? Why confuse the change from the afterburner flight bonus?

 

Evasive Maneuvers seems to heavily overlap on Fly and Hover. It gives a buff to fly speed and control, then gives some combat buffs that are nice on top of Hover. But with Fly and Hover now not being mutually exclusive, it's bonuses are a bit confused and diffused. Fly buffs the speed of Hover and Hover buffs the control of Fly.

 

I mean, putting the Afterburner toggle back into Evasive Maneuvers would make just as much sense.

[Bopper]

28 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

So I want to apologize here, too. I was very much over reacting here and feeling defensive and taking things far too personally. Stupid change in depression meds may have been messing with me. 😔

 

I am confused on the thought process on putting the afterburner toggle/click-toggle into flight itself. Even some of the verbiage seems to indicate that the afterburners 'increase fly cap' is listed as its reason, but isn't Fly getting its buff as just part of the Page 2? Why confuse the change from the afterburner flight bonus?

 

Evasive Maneuvers seems to heavily overlap on Fly and Hover. It gives a buff to fly speed and control, then gives some combat buffs that are nice on top of Hover. But with Fly and Hover now not being mutually exclusive, it's bonuses are a bit confused and diffused. Fly buffs the speed of Hover and Hover buffs the control of Fly.

 

I mean, putting the Afterburner toggle back into Evasive Maneuvers would make just as much sense.

Fly getting the Afterburner as a subpower is more in line with Mighty Leap having Takeoff as a subpower. In both cases the travel power will house the option of increasing your speed cap to even higher limits, without needing to take an extra power to get there. Fly and Mighty Leap provide buffs to your speed cap for simply having the powers turned on, while AB and TO increases your cap slightly more while also providing a strength buff to your movement speeds that helps your movement powers reach that higher speed cap.

 

Evasive Maneuvers does a lot of things. First there is the Immob protection and KB resistance (which acts like an enhancement to your KB protections). It also provides increased in-combat speed when flying, and this speed stacks with travel powers. Recall, although Hover and Fly can be on at the same time, Hover's speed will not add to Fly. But EvMa will add to Fly or Hover or any other Fly power you might be using. Also, this is in-combat speed it adds which means it never suppresses. So if you attack while having Fly on, you are gonna be slow for 4s before Fly turns its speed on again. With EvMa, that 4s of suppression will not be as bad because You will add 21.5-43 mph of speed to your base of 21.5 mph and swift's 3 mph. Now when you attack, instead of floating for 4s at ~25 mph, you get to zoom at ~47-68 mph. So you're doubling or tripling your in combat speed.

 

Out of combat, this speed will still be added, so pair it with Fly and you will travel at the fly speed cap with minimal slotting. Turn on AB with Fly+EvMa and you will be at the extreme cap with minimal slotting.

 

In short, the power does a lot and provides something for almost any situation or playstyle. At worst, it is simply an extra fly speed power. At best, it's a hover blaster's wet dream.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bopper

[arthurh35353]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

In short, the power does a lot and provides something for almost any situation or playstyle. At worst, it is simply an extra fly speed power. At best, it's a hover blaster's wet dream.

Being an extra power choice is actually a problem for one of my characters, which has Flight and Teleport. EM sounds useful, but with Hover and Fly working together make this a less viable choice in a situation where getting Teleport's pool there instead.

 

Yeah, I might not be hitting caps on that character, but it doesn't seem to add anything other than a higher level of zoom. The combat benefits (and extra flight control) aren't what I would be interested in. And it's not like I can get EM without picking 2 other powers first, so I'm likely going to have Fly and Hover (extra Def and possible LotG mule).

 

It overlaps Fly and Hover and it's combat bonuses are frankly underwhelming.

[Bopper]

18 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Being an extra power choice is actually a problem for one of my characters, which has Flight and Teleport. EM sounds useful, but with Hover and Fly working together make this a less viable choice in a situation where getting Teleport's pool there instead.

 

Yeah, I might not be hitting caps on that character, but it doesn't seem to add anything other than a higher level of zoom. The combat benefits (and extra flight control) aren't what I would be interested in. And it's not like I can get EM without picking 2 other powers first, so I'm likely going to have Fly and Hover (extra Def and possible LotG mule).

 

It overlaps Fly and Hover and it's combat bonuses are frankly underwhelming.

That's fine, you don't have to take EvMa in your build if you can't fit it. You can use Hover+Fly and match the control of EvMa. You can still reach Fly Speed Caps without EvMa, it will just require investment in enhancements much like the other travel powers. I can reach it with two +5 IOs and a couple set bonuses (maybe just one set bonus, actually). 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Bopper