A note on Rune of Protection changes

[Tallaan]

I'm honestly surprised so many people are defending the current version of RoP. It is pretty clearly overtuned and nerfing it is justified.

[Mezmera]

I do think the origin pools should be a step better than the rest in their total value.  I get there should still be things like hasten and leadership highly valued but the fact you are locked out from picking two origin pools should dictate that they are quite powerful to take.  They should have a good usable first power, the usual helpful travel and a special unique 3rd power stronger than the t5's in the other pools. 

 

I wouldn't mind if say Unrelenting in the presence pool were made better since you're likely taking two dead powers for this one but Unrelenting shouldn't be more effective than the t5 origin ones, effective sure and maybe upgrade those dead powers but not better than the origin ones.  It seems the original intent for the design of these pools was to make picking a origin feel like it meant something and it gave us all something fresh to play with, if you look at them as mini secondary's with a broad appeal for all that's pretty much how I see their intent was going to be.  I'm glad the dev team on secret decided there shouldn't be a prerequisite locking you into only the one of your origin but that you could choose whichever one you liked.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by Mezmera

[SwitchFade]

It's been discussed, but to sum...

 

Status effects are a a core tenant of the game's design. Certain ATs, squishies, are affected by status protection, by design. These ATs should not be capable of invalidating an entire core premise of the game.

 

These ATs have significant powers and abilities as part of this design and balance.

 

RoP was significantly overtuned, allowing it to achieve very high levels of status effect negation, reaching 100% in many cases. The need to adjust was clear.

 

Other discussions about the remaining powers in pools, sets, T9s, etc... Are important, but outside the scope of the pointed issue with RoP.

 

It was not changed due to other factors, merely it's current level of power and the fact it was in unfinished and unreleased on live and should never have been as powerful as it is.

[Blackbird71]

42 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Actually, discussion of the other Origin pools for comparison would definitely fall into the category of feedback.

And it's been stated that these threads are not for "discussions" or debates among the community, or to try to sway each others' opinion.  State your feedback to the HC Devs, and leave it at that.  Arguing amongst each other isn't going to help anything, and just clogs up the thread.

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

RoP was significantly overtuned, allowing it to achieve very high levels of status effect negation, reaching 100% in many cases. The need to adjust was clear.

I don't think it's good that the conversation keeps end up being reduced to one about mez. A power shouldn't suffer solely because of one attribute. Rune offered more than just mez protection, and frankly I don't see 90s of mez protection to be even that good. I surely didn't take it for that...I know of far superior means to address it than spending 3 whole power picks to serve that end. I took it for a wacky regen build, actually.

 

As I labored to point out in the "give squishies epic armor mez prot" thread, wholeheartedly I agree that those ATs that are meant to suffer mez shouldn't be able to invalidate it. Luckily, 90s of mez prot at the expense of high pool investment does no such thing. In fact, 120s of mez prot at the expense of low pool investment would not even reach such a hefty definition as to invalidate mez. It's just not accurate. Potent? Naturally. Overpotent? Well, I think we'd need some anecdotals of insane things done to verify that in our eyes. 

 

Regardless, if the mez is such an issue, than maybe that alone can be reduced to 60s and the resistance can stay at 90. Or using it as a break free reduces all buffs duration, or increases recharge, or some other alternative. But frankly, as someone who is against power creep, I have to say whether or not the duration is 60s or 90s...Rune isn't the cause of anything crazy. The gods will remain gods either way, all that's changed is Rune now just isn't the pick for some more nuanced or uncommon circumstances.

[BRADICAL]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Status effects are a a core tenant of the game's design. Certain ATs, squishies, are affected by status protection, by design. These ATs should not be capable of invalidating an entire core premise of the game.

 

These ATs have significant powers and abilities as part of this design and balance.

I think we all understand that CoH is fundamentally flawed. The archetypes are themselves imbalanced against one another to the point of redundancy when paired side-by-side, we've been able to build unstoppable murder machines for the majority of the game's lifespan, and several mechanics that should be core to actual gameplay are phased out by virtue of a well functioning build.

Recharge breakpoints ensure that your buffs and debuffs are permanent.

There are a half-dozen different ways to build without paying attention to the blue bar at all.

Healing and defensive support from support sets is virtually meaningless on the high end.

Arguing that something like RoP is overpowered in a situation where it is functional is dismissing the fact that it remains a choice only for those who actually need it. We make builds to circumvent the limitations of the game all the time. A well built tanker has zero need for a single other person in the team: they cover their own defenses, healing, endurance, and still do very high damage on top of being walking, permanent soft control auras. The current game design and its limitations, then, is in favor of tankers.

A full team running maneuvers is already softcapped to everything. One really dedicated guy can throw Injection on everybody and solve the whole mez problem. This is all normal, expected, and remarkably easy to achieve in even the most sub-optimal of circumstances. The problem is that RoP gives those squishier archetypes a solo-friendly option that brings them up to the level of those archetypes who have it handed to them. The solution to a flaw, not the cause of one.

In actual gameplay, blasters have few advantages over tankers to justify their severe handicaps. Controllers have zero. There are no significant abilities that matter here, and it's not as if a Sonic/X defender is going around feeling particularly overpowered having Sonic Dispersion toggled on. It's a deeply complicated design flaw that has caused this (IOs really do be like that), and encouraged the perception that a power like RoP (which, numerically, should appear to be overpowered) is the crutch, not the meta.

[America's Angel]

2 hours ago, StratoNexus said:

That is an interesting premise.

 

As I stated previously, I think <50% uptime is good goal, although I disagree with premise that we should look at the recharge cap for that. I do think a power like this should have some downtime, even at the cap, but 50% seems more like a number we want to stay under in general, not absolutely. The vast majority of characters at the recharge cap are going to somehow have additional help beyond +recharge anyway, You don't get there solo for long periods of time.

 

That said, even though my suggestion reduces the uptime percentage, it sought to keep the absolute amount of downtime similar to the current live version, and that downtime amount may have been the actual primary target of the change, rather than uptime percentage. At the 4 levels of recharge I used in my original post, live downtimes are 210 seconds for the generic build, 110 at mid-tier, 80 at the high-recharge, and 55 for the very high recharge (at the cap it would be 30 seconds). My suggestion (60 second duration/ 480 second recharge) ends up at 180 seconds down for the generic build, 100 at mid-tier, 76 at the high recharge, and 56 for the very high recharge (and 36 at the cap). If the goal of the change was to significantly increase the downtime rather than to make it a more active power with less overall uptime, then you are correct, they would have to reduce the duration if they would reduce the recharge. I am not positive increased downtime is the primary goal (they added the resists to the click break-free aspect, which tells me they would like people using it reactively more often and the reduced recharge encourages that too, while still reducing overall uptime). I do not feel that 60 seconds up and 110 seconds down (current test in a high recharge build) is necessary compared to my suggestion of 60 seconds up and 76 seconds down at that same level of recharge. Is that extra 34 seconds down an important part of the power reduction? Possibly, but not necessarily.

 

As far as mez overall, my interaction with Mez is biased by my own gameplay, which heavily leans on my decent understanding of when and which mezzes are actually a problem. Mez is not a zero-sum game for me, I can usually choose not to take a breakfree for most mezzes and come through a fight OK, but I also usually know which mezzes I really need to get out of RTFN. And I sometimes am wrong. I have taken a breakfree, only to have my team back me up right when I needed it, thus "wasting" the BF. I have also chosen to wait out the mez and been wrong that I would survive through. That is not zero-sum; my choices generally make a difference while also not being absolute (sometimes I make the "right" choice and it ends up not right).

 

Interesting thoughts. (Shame they're getting lost amidst the noise.)

 

If the goal is for Rune to be used reactively, would any of these options be preferable to you vs what's currently on Brainstorm:

 

15s duration w/ 2.5 min recharge

30s duration w/5 min recharge

45s duration w/7.5 min recharge

Edited March 31, 2021 by America's Angel

[EmperorSteele]

I'm curious about the builds, playstyles, and content/difficulty being played all those who are fighting this change so hard.

 

A lot of people seem to be concerned about their offensive toggles. Which in many (but not all) cases, implies melee. But they're not on melee-based ATs (yes Blasters and Doms have melee abilities; this is balanced by them not having melee defenses). So, I'm not too against something that helps re-align these ATs a bit closer to their design intent of high risk/high reward.

 

You wanna dive alone head-first into a group of 17 +4 Ritki? You're SUPPOSED to get wrecked. If you can survive, great, but it should take some effort, or at the very least, you should have to wait a minute or two before doing it again instead of steamrolling nonstop.

 

And if you don't like your serotonin levels getting interrupted by waiting or being mezzed (which is all what this all ultimately boils down to), I'd suggest going outside to read a book instead.

 

 

[Saikochoro]

14 minutes ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

 

Interesting thoughts. (Shame they're getting lost amidst the noise.)

 

If the goal is for Rune to be used reactively, would any of these options be preferable to you vs what's currently on Brainstorm:

 

15s duration w/ 2.5 min recharge

30s duration w/5 min recharge

45s duration w/7.5 min recharge

I don’t think the goal should be to make it purely a reactive click. That is only one way that it was used. I’m fine with people disagree with that stance, but there are people who used it primarily proactively instead of reactively. 

[Mezmera]

10 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

I'm curious about the builds, playstyles, and content/difficulty being played all those who are fighting this change so hard.

 

A lot of people seem to be concerned about their offensive toggles. Which in many (but not all) cases, implies melee. But they're not on melee-based ATs (yes Blasters and Doms have melee abilities; this is balanced by them not having melee defenses). So, I'm not too against something that helps re-align these ATs a bit closer to their design intent of high risk/high reward.

 

You wanna dive alone head-first into a group of 17 +4 Ritki? You're SUPPOSED to get wrecked. If you can survive, great, but it should take some effort, or at the very least, you should have to wait a minute or two before doing it again instead of steamrolling nonstop.

 

And if you don't like your serotonin levels getting interrupted by waiting or being mezzed (which is all what this all ultimately boils down to), I'd suggest going outside to read a book instead.

 

 

 

My doms are perma always and typically have some type of capped defenses so mezzing off my offensive toggle is a hard task which only RoP's resistance attribute would benefit them.  My blasters typically have capped defenses as well to avoid those pesky mezzers but it does happen every so often which is why I have a few bfs and melee hybrid just in case.  

 

I think in total I have maybe 2 toons with RoP and not for the mez protection and I hardly play them.  I'm against this nerf because I can see the forest for the trees, as a whole Sorcery is an underperforming set if RoP is downgraded and nothing else in the set is balanced upwards.  

 

As @siolfir was saying, all nerfing valid alternatives to the norm does is make for more regressing to the mean.  

[BRADICAL]

9 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

You wanna dive alone head-first into a group of 17 +4 Ritki? You're SUPPOSED to get wrecked.

The problem there lies in the imbalanced nature of the game: there are plenty of archetypes that can comfortably build to survive in situations like that, and the sacrifices they have to make to do so pale in comparison to what a blaster would have to sacrifice to do the same. That's ignoring the fact that a blaster would still underperform in that situation, even in terms of damage output.

RoP, at least, helps to bridge the gap a little in that regard.

People make builds in this game specifically to overcome challenges like that. With the way the IO system functions, it's the entire point: to subvert game mechanics and shore up the inherent weaknesses in an archetype. It's far easier to do that with some archetypes than other ones. But in the end, the top builds are steamrolling everything the game has to offer because that's what the system allows you to do.

Any disruption to that paradigm, especially one that would disproportionately affect the builds that already struggle to find competitive options, is going to be received poorly.

[Coyotedancer]

The character that I use RoP with most frequently in-game (And so the one that I picked to test the changed duration with-) is a Demons/Time Mastermind who "leads from the front" so to speak, jumping right into the middle of things with her minions. That may color my opinion of the change a little differently from people who are looking at it more from the ranged Blaster or Defender's point of view... 

 

The character is strictly solo-only, so will never have team backup to depend on. (Demons are loud, huge, obnoxious horrors who, until recently, just *loved* to block doors and corridors and to shove team-mates away from their targets, so even though I like the set a lot, I decided a long time ago not to inflict them on other players. 😝 ) She has what I would call a solid, but not really super high-end or UberL33T IO set build. She's a full Incarnate with T4 Alpha and Destiny, and T3s otherwise. I typically run at x6 with her, but only +1 or +2 depending on faction. 

 

With factions where status attacks are uncommon, I use RoP reactively and only as-needed to break a hold or a stun. With factions that are more mez-a-palooza? I do hit it preemptively as she and the boys dive into groups that look like they'll be problematic. I habitually carry a row of Breakfrees as back-up, because without a heavily recharge-intensive build (Amtes doesn't even have Hasten-), RoP has never been an ever-present option on highly mezzy maps.

 

To test the RoP change, I went with what's probably the single "worst case" goon-situation she's likely to face in ordinary play... A +2/x6 difficulty Devouring Earth tip mission. Helllloooo mountains o' mushrooms!

 

As things stand now in the Live game, that mission would be a little annoying. I'd have to use RoP every time it was recharged, and would likely still burn through the last of my Breakfrees, too, right around the time the last Crey scientist was running for the exit. It's a mission that can be managed without a lot of grief, in other words. Not a walk-through ROFLStomp, but not bad.

 

On test it still wasn't by any means impossible, but the difference was pretty noticeable. Less up-time on RoP meant I was relying quite a bit more heavily on the Breakfree supply, which was gone completely about half-way through the map. After that point, things got dicey any time RoP ran out in the middle of a fight. I found myself standing around a few times waiting for it to recharge before I jumped into particularly fungi-intensive spawns, which isn't exactly fun when you don't have a team to trade bad puns and Princess Bride quotes with, but the alternative was worse.

 

When you're a mezzed Mastermind you can't control your minions and THAT's the real root of the problem with status effects for them, I think. Our Pet AI isn't the sharpest tack in the box. You really need to be able to micromanage the gang sometimes (especially when it comes to chasing runners and picking targets to concentrate fire on-) and NOT being able to do that for what can seem like a pretty excessive amount of time just compounds the problem of dropped toggles and your inability to use heals and buffs on your minions. It's not hard to find yourself stun-locked with groups of DE (It only takes three or four mushrooms cycling their little spore bombs to make life utterly miserable-), with some minions scattering to the four winds chasing runaways and who-ever remains getting picked apart. 

 

Does the change ruin Amtes and her guys? No. I'll still play her after the change... But what I WON'T do anymore is take her into DE missions. Hami's goons are dead to her. Possibly along with Carnies and their Illusionists. And maybe the Talons. We'll have to see about them. 

 

I could solve the issue by switching her Destiny from Ageless to Clarion, of course. But... Demons. They benefit too much from Ageless to make that option attractive. 

 

I could stay at range, I guess, out of the path of the 'shrooms and such.. But... /Time. The guys benefit a lot from my personal toggle power's slow and hold effects, and my heal has a pretty limited diameter.

 

Or I could load my entire tray up with Breakfrees, but that seems pretty impractical. Likewise spending a small fortune on amplifiers. (I've got alts to equip, people! I can't afford that. 😆 )

 

 Maybe the best answer is a structural one that has nothing to do with RoP... Let Masterminds retain command of their minions while mezzed.  

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[Ratch_]

21 hours ago, Jimmy said:

I feel I need to chip in here as well. Keep in mind these are just my personal views, not a sign of any plans we may have.

I usually give Powerhouse a hard time when nerfing things and really do push him to ensure it’s justified - but there’s just no real ground to stand on here to oppose the nerf to RoP.

There are some unrelated concerns which may certainly be valid but are not reasons to keep RoP in its current state:

• The rest of Sorcery is underwhelming: I agree with this. Perhaps it would’ve made more sense to adjust RoP at the same time Sorcery was looked at, but there’s no telling if and when that would happen. Either way, Sorcery not being great in general is not a valid reason for RoP being as strong as it is. It shouldn’t need to be strong enough to justify 3 picks - each of those picks should justify themselves.
• The other Origin Pool T5s are underwhelming: Maybe. I actually feel this is more related to the above point - the Origin pools are in general underwhelming, which means for Force of Will and Experimentation you need to take two underwhelming powers in order to pick up an OK power - and that OK power isn’t strong enough to carry the entire pool in the same way that RoP is.
• Mez on squishies is bad and I don’t like it: That’s fair. But it’s a systems-level discussion, not an issue to be resolved by a single overtuned power.

But RoP itself, even after this change, is still an incredibly strong power. It was simply ridiculous before. It should not have been released that way, and it shouldn’t have been left this long, but there’s no point dwelling in the past.

Something which I think is being overlooked is the impact of the other adjustment to RoP: You now get the full effect even when using it to break mez. This is actually great for lower-end usage of the power. Average builds never had it permanently chaining with Melee Hybrid, and using it reactively to break mez / deal with a tough engagement is a more realistic use case  for them.

RoP is now much stronger for this purpose, and is situated to be used in a far more active and dynamic way - with actual decision making - instead of just existing to be chained in order to obsolete a part of the game.

I feel very torn on this because at one side I completely and utterly agree on the power strength of Rune. Giving resistance to everything is quite good on it's own, mez protection is useful to some ATs, and all the while being happily available to all ATs that can find it useful makes it a pretty insane option. It is hampered by the other power picks which for the sake of argument I'll try to not harp on. Looking at the power on it's own is where I do agree with the sentiment of not having any ground to stand on.

However the perceived use (anecdotal) and the perceived strength does leave me with quite the disconnect. I personally use it on a spines/ice scrapper since the idea of cycling Icy Bastion with another clicky could make me insanely tanky. And even after moving my character to test on beta with the reduced duration I honestly didn't feel *that* much of a difference. It was definitely a nerf, but it was kinda whatever ig. After having spent some time reflecting, I have some thoughts on RoP and it's effectiveness.

RoP provides X duration of +Res and +Mez, which I stated earlier I agree is pretty insane. Yet, no AT that I can tell can actually take good advantage of the power - where Mez is relatively redundant on armor ATs and resistance while strong on Squishies goes far less of a distance due to small health pools. And then you start to consider how taking sorcery means you lose precious opportunities for LoTG mules which RoP absolutely is begging you to have just puts the whole power in a weird place imo. It's strength comes at steep power pool pick costs, mule costs, and for something that'll only let you temporarily solve whatever hole is attempted at being filled. The payoff of RoP just doesn't outweigh the power slot(s) and pool costs (which hopefully in the future can be addressed/justified) but even then I don't see the team adding a defense power to the pool. That design constraint on it's own really dampens the overall opportunity costs for ATs that wish to take RoP.

I realize I am taking an odd stance here, but hopefully I was able to articulate that while I think the power is pretty OP on it's own, it just doesn't translate that well in actual gameplay in my experience. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

3 minutes ago, Ratch_ said:

I feel very torn on this because at one side I completely and utterly agree on the power strength of Rune. Giving resistance to everything is quite good on it's own, mez protection is useful to some ATs, and all the while being happily available to all ATs that can find it useful makes it a pretty insane option. It is hampered by the other power picks which for the sake of argument I'll try to not harp on. Looking at the power on it's own is where I do agree with the sentiment of not having any ground to stand on.

However the perceived use (anecdotal) and the perceived strength does leave me with quite the disconnect. I personally use it on a spines/ice scrapper since the idea of cycling Icy Bastion with another clicky could make me insanely tanky. And even after moving my character to test on beta with the reduced duration I honestly didn't feel *that* much of a difference. It was definitely a nerf, but it was kinda whatever ig. After having spent some time reflecting, I have some thoughts on RoP and it's effectiveness.

RoP provides X duration of +Res and +Mez, which I stated earlier I agree is pretty insane. Yet, no AT that I can tell can actually take good advantage of the power - where Mez is relatively redundant on armor ATs and resistance while strong on Squishies goes far less of a distance due to small health pools. And then you start to consider how taking sorcery means you lose precious opportunities for LoTG mules which RoP absolutely is begging you to have just puts the whole power in a weird place imo. It's strength comes at steep power pool pick costs, mule costs, and for something that'll only let you temporarily solve whatever hole is attempted at being filled. The payoff of RoP just doesn't outweigh the power slot(s) and pool costs (which hopefully in the future can be addressed/justified) but even then I don't see the team adding a defense power to the pool. That design constraint on it's own really dampens the overall opportunity costs for ATs that wish to take RoP.

I realize I am taking an odd stance here, but hopefully I was able to articulate that while I think the power is pretty OP on it's own, it just doesn't translate that well in actual gameplay in my experience. 

Very well put, and with good detail about why in the bigger picture builds with RoP in them do not overperform, even if looking at RoP as a single power makes some believe that builds using it must somehow be OP. 

 

In the bigger picture there are two things being lost here, as follows:

 

1. Builds with RoP in them are not meta and are not even overpowered.

2. This nerf would homogenize builds without in any touching, not even remotely, the overall power curve for builds that are possible. 

[CaptainLupis]

9 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

The character that I use RoP with most frequently in-game (And so the one that I picked to test the changed duration with-) is a Demons/Time Mastermind who "leads from the front" so to speak, jumping right into the middle of things with her minions. That may color my opinion of the change a little differently from people who are looking at it more from the ranged Blaster or Defender's point of view... 

 

The character is strictly solo-only, so will never have team backup to depend on. (Demons are loud, huge, obnoxious horrors who, until recently, just *loved* to block doors and corridors and to shove team-mates away from their targets, so even though I like the set a lot, I decided a long time ago not to inflict them on other players. 😝 ) She has what I would call a solid, but not really super high-end or UberL33T IO set build. She's a full Incarnate with T4 Alpha and Destiny, and T3s otherwise. I typically run at x6 with her, but only +1 or +2 depending on faction. 

 

With factions where status attacks are uncommon, I use RoP reactively and only as-needed to break a hold or a stun. With factions that are more mez-a-palooza? I do hit it preemptively as she and the boys dive into groups that look like they'll be problematic. I habitually carry a row of Breakfrees as back-up, because without a heavily recharge-intensive build (Amtes doesn't even have Hasten-), RoP has never been an ever-present option on highly mezzy maps.

 

To test the RoP change, I went with what's probably the single "worst case" goon-situation she's likely to face in ordinary play... A +2/x6 difficulty Devouring Earth tip mission. Helllloooo mountains o' mushrooms!

 

As things stand now on in the Live game, that mission would be a little annoying. I'd have to use RoP every time it was recharged, and would likely still burn through the last of my Breakfrees, too, right around the time the last Crey scientist was running for the exit. It's a mission that can be managed without a lot of grief, in other words. Not a walk-through ROFLStomp, but not bad.

 

On test it still wasn't by any means impossible, but the difference was pretty noticeable. Less up-time on RoP meant I was relying quite a bit more heavily on the Breakfree supply, which was gone completely about half-way through the map. After that point, things got dicey any time RoP ran out in the middle of a fight. I found myself standing around a few times waiting for it to recharge before I jumped into particularly fungi-intensive spawns, which isn't exactly fun when you don't have a team to trade bad puns and Princess Bride quotes with, but the alternative was worse.

 

When you're a mezzed Mastermind you can't control your minions and THAT's the real root of the problem with status effects for them, I think. Our Pet AI isn't the sharpest tack in the box. You really need to be able to micromanage the gang sometimes (especially when it comes to chasing runners and picking targets to concentrate fire on-) and NOT being able to do that for what can seem like a pretty excessive amount of time just compounds the problem of dropped toggles and your inability to use heals and buffs on your minions. It's not hard to find yourself stun-locked with groups of DE (It only takes three or four mushrooms cycling their little spore bombs to make life utterly miserable-), with some minions scattering to the four winds chasing runaways and who-ever remains getting picked apart. 

 

Does the change ruin Amtes and her guys? No. I'll still play her after the change... But what I WON'T do anymore is take her into DE missions. Hami's goons are dead to her. Possibly along with Carnies and their Illusionists. And maybe the Talons. We'll have to see about them. 

 

I could solve the issue by switching her Destiny from Ageless to Clarion, of course. But... Demons. They benefit too much from Ageless to make that option attractive. 

 

I could stay at range, I guess, out of the path of the 'shrooms and such.. But... /Time. The guys benefit a lot from my personal toggle power's slow and hold effects, and my heal has a pretty limited diameter.

 

Or I could load my entire tray up with Breakfrees, but that seems pretty impractical. Likewise spending a small fortune on amplifiers. (I've got alts to equip, people! I can't afford that. 😆 )

 

 Maybe the best answer is a structural one that has nothing to do with RoP... Let Masterminds retain command their minions while mezzed.  

 

 

 

I've often wished they would just switching to defensive follow automatically if you are held/stunned/slept, but I can see how that might end up being a pain for some people with things like micro sleeps, where you don't notice it has happened and suddenly your minions are just all standing around.

 

 

[arthurh35353]

Wouldn't the micro-sleeps count as an attack so the pets would aggro on the sleep inflictor?

[Blackbird71]

Just now, arthurh35353 said:

Wouldn't the micro-sleeps count as an attack so the pets would aggro on the sleep inflictor?

I think he means that after the micro sleep, you might not notice your pets were switched from an aggressive to a defensive stance.

[Peacemoon]

17 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

The character that I use RoP with most frequently in-game (And so the one that I picked to test the changed duration with-) is a Demons/Time Mastermind who "leads from the front" so to speak, jumping right into the middle of things with her minions. That may color my opinion of the change a little differently from people who are looking at it more from the ranged Blaster or Defender's point of view... 

 

The character is strictly solo-only, so will never have team backup to depend on. (Demons are loud, huge, obnoxious horrors who, until recently, just *loved* to block doors and corridors and to shove team-mates away from their targets, so even though I like the set a lot, I decided a long time ago not to inflict them on other players. 😝 ) She has what I would call a solid, but not really super high-end or UberL33T IO set build. She's a full Incarnate with T4 Alpha and Destiny, and T3s otherwise. I typically run at x6 with her, but only +1 or +2 depending on faction. 

 

With factions where status attacks are uncommon, I use RoP reactively and only as-needed to break a hold or a stun. With factions that are more mez-a-palooza? I do hit it preemptively as she and the boys dive into groups that look like they'll be problematic. I habitually carry a row of Breakfrees as back-up, because without a heavily recharge-intensive build (Amtes doesn't even have Hasten-), RoP has never been an ever-present option on highly mezzy maps.

 

To test the RoP change, I went with what's probably the single "worst case" goon-situation she's likely to face in ordinary play... A +2/x6 difficulty Devouring Earth tip mission. Helllloooo mountains o' mushrooms!

 

As things stand now in the Live game, that mission would be a little annoying. I'd have to use RoP every time it was recharged, and would likely still burn through the last of my Breakfrees, too, right around the time the last Crey scientist was running for the exit. It's a mission that can be managed without a lot of grief, in other words. Not a walk-through ROFLStomp, but not bad.

 

On test it still wasn't by any means impossible, but the difference was pretty noticeable. Less up-time on RoP meant I was relying quite a bit more heavily on the Breakfree supply, which was gone completely about half-way through the map. After that point, things got dicey any time RoP ran out in the middle of a fight. I found myself standing around a few times waiting for it to recharge before I jumped into particularly fungi-intensive spawns, which isn't exactly fun when you don't have a team to trade bad puns and Princess Bride quotes with, but the alternative was worse.

 

When you're a mezzed Mastermind you can't control your minions and THAT's the real root of the problem with status effects for them, I think. Our Pet AI isn't the sharpest tack in the box. You really need to be able to micromanage the gang sometimes (especially when it comes to chasing runners and picking targets to concentrate fire on-) and NOT being able to do that for what can seem like a pretty excessive amount of time just compounds the problem of dropped toggles and your inability to use heals and buffs on your minions. It's not hard to find yourself stun-locked with groups of DE (It only takes three or four mushrooms cycling their little spore bombs to make life utterly miserable-), with some minions scattering to the four winds chasing runaways and who-ever remains getting picked apart. 

 

Does the change ruin Amtes and her guys? No. I'll still play her after the change... But what I WON'T do anymore is take her into DE missions. Hami's goons are dead to her. Possibly along with Carnies and their Illusionists. And maybe the Talons. We'll have to see about them. 

 

I could solve the issue by switching her Destiny from Ageless to Clarion, of course. But... Demons. They benefit too much from Ageless to make that option attractive. 

 

I could stay at range, I guess, out of the path of the 'shrooms and such.. But... /Time. The guys benefit a lot from my personal toggle power's slow and hold effects, and my heal has a pretty limited diameter.

 

Or I could load my entire tray up with Breakfrees, but that seems pretty impractical. Likewise spending a small fortune on amplifiers. (I've got alts to equip, people! I can't afford that. 😆 )

 

 Maybe the best answer is a structural one that has nothing to do with RoP... Let Masterminds retain command their minions while mezzed.  

 

 

 

I think there are some structural issues with mezz and squishy ATs, which Jimmy referred to in one of his original replies. 
MMs probably even more so.

 

Not denying there are work around for being mezzed, as I employ quite a few myself regularly.

 

However, in my mind it keeps coming down the structural issue which people are fighting with RoP, and I think when you are configuring powers like this it would make better sense for the devs to come up with a solution to those structural issues first, and then try integrate as many powers into that new paradigm in one swoop as possible.

 

I’ve posted some ideas, like giving squishes access to more inherent mezz resistance through various mechanisms, which in my mind is an elegant solution that lessens the very binary divide of protection/no protection. But whatever solution is adopted I think would be really good for the game.

 

Cheers! 

[CaptainLupis]

15 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

I think he means that after the micro sleep, you might not notice your pets were switched from an aggressive to a defensive stance.

That is indeed what I meant.

[Jacke]

38 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Or I could load my entire tray up with Breakfrees, but that seems pretty impractical. Likewise spending a small fortune on amplifiers. (I've got alts to equip, people! I can't afford that. 😆 )

 

It does help to use the Handyman's Other Secret Weapon: Team Breakfrees.  Which have 3-minute duration.  And may even help another member on your team.  🙂

 

When leveling a toon, I eventually switch to them just because of the duration packed into a single Inspiration.

[Arbegla]

I fully support the RoP changes, and I really don't understand the argument against it.

 

Death in City of Heroes is one of the most forgivable things in any MMO I've ever played. We don't have to corpse run, we don't lose levels, heck, they even added Hospitals to Hazard zones now, so the walk back to the mission isn't even that bad. Debt slows down leveling, but leveling up is to easy anyways that isn't barely a bump in the road. And there was not just self rez temp powers, but vet powers as well (not counting Wakies)

 

And, a Mez isn't instant death either. Holds and Stuns suck, but Sleeps are broken if you get hit (or healed), and immobilizes you can still use ranged attacks. Unless you're running +4/8x, chances are really high that if you do get Mezzed, you'll be fine.

 

I really think knowing what the Homecoming Devs consider 'Balanced' will help. What difficulty are powers judged at? 0/x1? +2/3 (the old max difficulty before the Notoriety changes...) or +4/8x, which is the highest you can ever play at? Once we know what the Devs are considering to be the balanced difficulty, we can have a better idea of what is considered overpowered. Without that knowledge, we just don't know, as some people can handle +4/8x and solo AVs/GMs, and others can't. There is a HUGE gap between power levels, and until we know where the balance is located, we can't really say something is or isn't balanced.

[dangeraaron10]

I would be for delaying the RoP nerf until the rest of the Sorcery pool (and all the Origin pools) get some TLC, but if the devs are set on nerfing Rune, then who am I to argue?  There's a few improvements I would personally do for the rest of the pools so that there's not one power that warrants taking said pool but then I'm not entirely sure where the devs want the Origin pools to be in relation to Primary/Secondary sets strength wise.  All that I've gathered has it pointing to "Origin/Pool powers should be inherently weaker than Primary/Secondary powers" as a general rule.

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Saikochoro said:

I don’t think the goal should be to make it purely a reactive click. That is only one way that it was used. I’m fine with people disagree with that stance, but there are people who used it primarily proactively instead of reactively. 

  

This is precisely why I think 60s duration with 10min recharge is the best option, as the duration allows for it to be used proactively, too. (I.e. before a bossfight.)  Similar principle to inspirations (in that they can be used proactively or reactively).

 

But I was curious what players thought of Rune at 15s duration with 2.5min recharge /  30s duration with 5min recharge / 45s duration with 7.5min recharge.

 

Especially considering this part of Jimmy's post, which indicates the power is being balanced around average builds, rather than min-max +4/8 soloers with the Hybrid alpha:
 

22 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Average builds never had it permanently chaining with Melee Hybrid, and using it reactively to break mez / deal with a tough engagement is a more realistic use case  for them.

RoP is now much stronger for this purpose, and is situated to be used in a far more active and dynamic way - with actual decision making - instead of just existing to be chained[...]

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by America's Angel

[Saikochoro]

25 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

This is precisely why I think 60s@10min recharge is the best option of the three, as the duration allows for it to be used proactively, too. (I.e. before a bossfight.)  Similar principle to inspirations (in that they can be used proactively or reactively).

 

But I was curious what players thought of 15s@5min and [email protected].

I personally feel the duration for those is just too short to be worth the pick. That may work if they are mainly used reactively as a break free. But if it is being used proactively or used for longer term mez protection I think the current nerf is better. 
 

My personal opinion on the matter was that it was perfect how it was. On most builds it had about 50% uptime give or take a few percentage points. That is with about perma hasten level recharge, which I feel is more realistic for most builds than being at recharge cap constantly.  It was up often enough to be worth the pick and had a duration long enough to not be annoying to click all the time.

I concede that 60 seconds is a long enough buff to help out, but I still disagree with the uptime nerf. I feel that 50% uptime at perma hasten levels of recharge is perfect. I understand that others, including the devs, do not agree with that stance. So I understand that it will not be changing back.  That said, I wouldn’t want it further reduced in duration. Others may feel differently. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Saikochoro

[Troo]

6 hours ago, Hew said:

Strawman.

 

Scorpion shield requires a lockout.

 

RoP does not. You can take both if you felt like it. The lockout makes it more palatable, because other fun epics cant be taken, and frankly, life is not all about scorpion shield. Indeed, there are reasons to take pretty much any of the epic pools (more so the patron pools than the regulars, but not by a whole lot)

 

If I wasn't asking a question and showing an example, yes it would be strawman. But my question was not to refute the RoP changes.