Buff Brutes... or Nerf Tanks.

[macskull]

I think the point of this thread is really that Stalkers need their melee damage scale to be at least doubled.

[Bill Z Bubba]

31 minutes ago, macskull said:

I think the point of this thread is really that Stalkers need their melee damage scale to be at least doubled.

 

AS and no spin means I'll never know what a good pylon time is for a claws/sr stalker.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Some one please correct me if my math is wrong, but I think it's actually more like this:

Assume a power deals 100 damage baseline and 3 even level SOs = +94.99% damage (after ED).

1. Tanker = .95 with enhancements damage = 185
2. Scrapper = 1.125 with enhancements damage = 219
3. Brute = .75 with enhancements damage = 146

•  with 50% Fury = 221
•  with 75% Fury = 259
•  with 100% Fury = 296

 

Looks right but you'll need to factor in crits for the scrapper and come at it with the understanding that any other damage buffs that come into play will end up benefiting the tank more than the brute.

[Steampunkette]

Yup. It's 200% for Maximum Fury. I was wrong.

 

Though a character is almost never going to get to 100% Fury, so you're still in the 75-80% target range for the 259ish value.

 

If that's too low, and brutes solo too slowly compared to Tankers (Who clear most of the spawn in 3 tiers of buttwhuppin) and Scrappers (who rely on Crits to blow past the Brute's damage), then increase it by another 75% maximum. Or 37.5%. Or 100%.

 

Or whatever value is required to make them feel "Better" while solo, while not impacting their high end team damage values by raising either their Cap or their Scalars.

 

Brute Fury is absolutely great for that, really. A global-ish buff that still falls within a bounded constraint that the player can't reach on their own.

[Wavicle]

lol no this is silly

 

Brutes and Tanks are very well balanced now. No changes necessary.

[PeregrineFalcon]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Looks right but you'll need to factor in crits for the scrapper and come at it with the understanding that any other damage buffs that come into play will end up benefiting the tank more than the brute.

Yeah. A much better comparison would include Scrapper crits and Tanker's larger AoE.

 

Maybe someone should do a test like having a Scrapper, a Tanker and a Brute clear a mission or something? 😄

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah. A much better comparison would include Scrapper crits and Tanker's larger AoE.

 

Maybe someone should do a test like having a Scrapper, a Tanker and a Brute clear a mission or something? 😄

 

Now all that would show is what's stated in the OP: that the difference between tank and brute damage is far smaller than the difference between their damage mitigation. But again, if all that extra mitigation the tank has is meaningless, no one should bat an eye about nerfing it into line.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But again, if all that extra mitigation the tank has is meaningless, no one should bat an eye about nerfing it into line.

This gets said a lot, but it isn't true.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

This gets said a lot, but it isn't true.

 

Agreed. I don't think it's meaningless at all.

[Haijinx]

A set like Claws is going to be biased in favor of scrappers and tankers though.

 

Since it has a constant damage buff.  

 

Probably double follow up in this case? 

 

Something with normal build up might be a little more towards that midpoint. 

[AerialAssault]

While I wouldn't want to discard this data, I feel that basing a change to an AT based on it's highest potential vs other ATs is a recipe for disaster. All ATs have a power ceiling, which will never be completely flat.

 

During the betas, I've often tested new sets with a bling build, a modest build, a levelling build and a naked build, so that I can see how a set can perform at all stages.

 

Tweaking something as far ranging as entire ATs based purely on pylon times and the absolute highest tier of content can only end up in some really off-kilter results. There is more to CoX than pylons and multi-million inf builds.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

While I wouldn't want to discard this data, I feel that basing a change to an AT based on it's highest potential vs other ATs is a recipe for disaster. All ATs have a power ceiling, which will never be completely flat.

 

During the betas, I've often tested new sets with a bling build, a modest build, a levelling build and a naked build, so that I can see how a set can perform at all stages.

 

Tweaking something as far ranging as entire ATs based purely on pylon times and the absolute highest tier of content can only end up in some really off-kilter results. There is more to CoX than pylons and multi-million inf builds.

 

I have tried over and over to make Tankers do more damage but they seem to average out at 4 minutes (no -res included) in pylon times. More bling, more procs, makes no difference. The average is 4 minutes, period. Some outliers like EM go lower, Titan Weapons pre-nerf, but those were/are outliers in all ATs and not just Tankers.

 

-res procs do shift that goalpost and then the combos who can use more -res procs further it, but that's not an AT thing, it's a skewed test that places a lot of results in literally 1-2 slots in a whole build, and that have actually little influence in the game. I have the actual tests that show the -res procs have little influence either in mission clearing or AV killing. But, they are great for pylons.

[Parabola]

I agree that brutes now feel left behind to a certain extent. The tank buffs were really powerful and they eclipse brute performance in many situations. Scrappers are also squeezing them from the other side with IO fueled mitigation and much better ato's.

 

Performance across the AT's does of course vary from powerset to powerset. Some react better to the way one AT or another works which is great from the point of view of making the game interesting but it does muddy balance discussions.

 

I play a lot of melee, and often test the same combination of powersets across the three AT's to see where it performs best. In far too many cases I really struggle to make a convincing case for the brute version other than ease of play early on. As soon as the level increases enough for slotting to become a real factor (and tanks can fill out attack chains), brutes often start to feel lacking.

 

For my endgame builds I'm either looking to do challenge type things where the tanks extra mitigation really shines or obliterate the more mundane content in which case scrappers are tough enough and do more damage. There isn't much room for brutes in that. Scrappers and brutes are always going to tread on each others toes as they have such similar focus but for tanks to be (excuse the pun) muscling in on the damage side does seem a little off to me.

 

It's telling that I have only one lv50 brute (my main, basically retired), compared to 5 lv50 tanks given that I don't really enjoy playing as 'the tank'. They are all built and played like brutes (no taunt, chew down reds as fast as possible, built for damage), but they are better at it than the equivalent brutes because they are considerably tougher and get close enough in damage.

 

I'd start by giving brutes much better ato's as both their procs are somewhat forgettable. They only get the one recharge bonus in the ato sets too which could be considered a disadvantage compared to the scrapper ato's.

 

Changes to damage scales have been mentioned above and that might be a way to go. It would certainly benefit brutes with sets like claws and dark melee that have a built in +damage mechanic. Another thought that I'll throw out there is what about giving brutes some of the arc/radius/max targets bonus that tanks get? If they had 50% of that buff then that would reinforce their position between the other two AT's. Scrappers would do the most damage but concentrated on fewer targets, tanks would do the least damage to the most targets and brutes would be between the two.

 

I strongly suspect that the devs won't give brutes any buffs until they are comfortable with the farming meta though. Cap P (I think it was) has said before that afk farming in particular is on the radar...

[Wavicle]

Brutes are still the insane destroyers they always were. Stop advocating for power creep.

[Wavicle]

If the tank buffs went too far, then MAYBE pull them back a little. Brutes are FINE.

[Infinitum]

The brutal mission simulator beckons this thread - and there are other ways also.

 

This topic is like thanos - always coming back here but really a demonstrable non issue.

[Big Brain Brute Main]

this thread is good

[America's Angel]

This topic got me curious. (I never Pylon test!) So I took my Claws/Regen Brute (built purely for PvP) into RWZ...

 

Pylon times:

~2:10-2:20 mins with hybrid

~2:30-2:40 without hybrid

 

I imagine it would do even better with a dedicated PvE build.

 

With Hybrid:

 

Without Hybrid:

 

Brute damage seems fine to me.

Edited May 21, 2021 by America's Angel

[krj12]

I personally don't have any issue with any of my brutes - they perform just fine.   Min/Maxers may see a slight difference, but most

people aren't min/maxers.

 

In PUG teams that I form, I'm seeing that brutes are far and away more popular/common  than either scraps or tankers - so I see no reason

in increasing that disparity.   If anything, there needs to be more incentive to play the other two.

 

[SiliconAria]

7 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Though a character is almost never going to get to 100% Fury, so you're still in the 75-80% target range for the 259ish value.

 

Even if that were the case, it's still a problem for a tank archetype to out-damage a DPS archetype using only its own mechanics. But it's worse than that -- in my experience, Brutes will turn on their PBAoE toggle and sit at 100% fury basically all the time. Whether it's a damage toggle like most sets, or a taunt aura with a debuff effect like Shield Defense has, it rolls accuracy checks and procs fury generation on every target in range, every time the toggle interval ticks. Even more so if this is where you put your fury generation ATO proc.

 

In my estimation, both Tankers and Brutes need a damage nerf. You should be inviting Scrappers, Stalkers and Blasters to your team if you want to make bad guys fall over faster. Tankers and Brutes are there to make the good guys fall over slower.

[Galaxy Brain]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Agreed. I don't think it's meaningless at all.

 

My question is: where does it truly matter?

 

 

Edit:

 

In the Scrapper vs Brute thread (that became Brute vs Tank), didn't you and @Infinitum show time and again the Brute still cleared faster? Did you record the damage received as well?

Edited May 20, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

If the tank buffs went too far, then MAYBE pull them back a little. Brutes are FINE.

Honestly, I think that is more the point of this thread than the title is. And during the Tanker buff feedback threads - while many were complaining because the buff was reduced so many times from the initial patch (seriously, take a look at the initial patch if you think they're overtuned now) - a large number of the people there stated that they would simply switch to Tankers rather than Brutes if it went through. So they carried through with it.

 

Also worth mentioning is that Brutes have been nerfed multiple times already for overperformance, by reducing the +damage per point of Fury (from +3% to +2%) and reducing the damage cap a couple of times - admittedly, each of those came with an attempt at easing the curve so that Fury decayed slower.

 

For those suggesting ATO improvements*, you could make the +Fury ATO proc provide the extra +1% damage that was removed a long time ago, and it will provide essentially a free +80-90% damage in all of your other powers. That wouldn't increase damage-capped performance (thus, farming), because the damage cap is still lower than it was. It would just be a lot easier to hit the cap, and their average performance would certainly be closer to the Scrapper when both have their ATOs slotted.

 

 

* - and feel that Brutes need a buff (I'm not really sold)

Edited May 20, 2021 by siolfir
Added footnote (*)

[Leo_G]

I was very much against the increase in damage mod for Tanker when the buffs were being tested. I was also against reducing the area buff. The primary goal, IMO, should have been adjusting the AoE to provide a mechanical difference to playing the AT, not a means of overcoming a DPS disparity. Increased AoEs would, overall, increase clear times but its target is using the extra range allows a unique style when lining up attacks.

 

People get constantly caught up in DPS comparisons (like here). It's not that important. If you think Brute is pointless, don't play them. You should be playing Brute or scrapper for their mechanical difference not a hypothetical mathematical equilibrium between it and 2 other ATs.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Brute damage seems fine to me.

Same. Hence why I think we leave it as is and rollback the tanker damage modifier instead.

[Apparition]

13 hours ago, Sovera said:

For years and years Tankers were this useless AT only die hard fans played while every advice was to just roll a Brute. Tankers get buffed, Brutes become middle of the pack, and Tankers are on the call for nerfs.

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

Now Brutes are generally considered among people I know to be a useless AT for everything but farming and Energy Aura, and general advice is to either roll a Tanker or Scrapper instead.

 

The point of it all is that, yes, taken on its own, Brutes are fine.  The problem is that nothing in the universe is on its own.  It's always compared to something else.  In the Brute's case, that's Tanker and Scrapper, which everyone I play with (veterans of the game for many, many years and have lead many Incarnate trials and raids, including myself), consider Scrappers and Tankers to better than Brutes.  It's why you see so many more Tankers on raids and Incarnate trials these days than Brutes.

 

Prior to sunset, about half of my characters were Brutes.  The others were mostly Corruptors and Masterminds, with a scattering of Scrappers and Defenders for when I had to play blue side.  Now on Homecoming I have exactly one non-farming Brute, a Radiation Melee/Energy Aura.  I can't justify to myself to make anything other than Energy Aura Brutes knowing that numbers wise Tankers and Scrappers would be better, which is why I now mainly play non-melee characters.