So, procs...

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

barmy cutters

😝

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Anyone trying to act like soft defense from sources that lack debuff resistance somehow obsolete as a set like SR are exactly the kind of barmy cutters who help get things they dont really understand or use or at least use well nerfed.

 

You're being weird.  I didn't suggest that SR was obsolete.  I said that, with SR of all things, you can build yourself well above softcap on all three positionals without needing DM's debuffs.  And with SR's DDR, adding more to-hit debuffs is basically useless.

 

DM's to-hit debuffs seem like they're potentially very useful -- on sets that can't easily softcap themselves.  If you want to improve SR's mitigation, you should look for anything besides to-hit debuffs.  Now, obviously, SR can still use DM's heal.  But I don't think that brings that much value to the table if you're making a mitigation play with your primary.

 

You mentioned getting impressed with DM/SR back in the days of SOs.  I imagine it was indeed a great combo in the days of SOs -- before you could softcap yourself without recourse to DM's to-hit debuffs.

[skoryy]

On 7/10/2021 at 11:29 AM, America's Angel said:

Have been playing around with a  rad/dev blaster on beta.

 

Have been throwing it up against +4/8 Rikti in a custom AE mission (Tyrant throne-room map) with the following builds:

• Softcapped with no procs
• Softcapped with 3xST attacks filled with -res and dam procs
• Softcapped with 3xAoE attacks filled with -res and dam procs

No insps. No incarnates.

 

So far, there's no significant clearspeed between the first two. The last one (AoE procs) was faster.

 

I did an extra run with the AoE proc build with T4 incarnates slotted just for fun, and everything just melted. I didn't even need to use WASD and spacebar. I just spammed my powers and everything died. Incarnates made such a huge difference. I was genuinely shocked.

 

The DPS jump from the level shift, Judgement (ion), Hybrid (assault doublehit), Interface (degen 25 -heal) , and alpha (musculature 45) is insane. The survivability jump from the level shift and Destiny (Clarion 2m) was insane. When I used Lore (Banished Pantheon untouchable), the spawns pretty much just instantly died.

 

Haven't tested the first two builds with incarnates yet. Be interesting to see how they compare.

 

Next stuff I'm going to test:

• Softcapped with no procs + incarnates
• Softcapped with 3xST attacks filled with -res and dam procs + incarnates
• All attacks procc'd out. As much +def as possible, but likely not softcapped.
• All attacks procc'd out. As much +def as possible, but likely not softcapped.+ incarnates
• All attacks procc'd out. As much +def as possible, but likely not softcapped. + incarnates + Inspirations

I should probably switch to charged armour for the last three, but I'll keep Scorpion Shield just for consistency in testing.

 

Hopefully this will help give some perspective of how procs intersect with the various OP elements in the game. And allow us to determine whether procs are overtuned, whether procs are undertuned, or whether procs seem overtuned only when paired specific things. (Incarnates/Inspirations being the two I want to test the most.)

Once I've played around a bit more & fine-tuned, I'll post up the mids files for the builds, the # of the AE map, and videos of each of the runs.

 

My hope with this is to create a framework that others can use to test different powersets. Rad/dev should overperform with procs. (This is why I picked it- the primary can slot all the -res procs, a multitude of damage procs, and the secondary has targeting drone it it so with that + tactics I don't have to slot for acc.)

 

It's not a perfect test by any stretch of the imagination. And it cannot be applied outside of fighting Rikti, with a rad/dev blaster, with a specific build. But hopefully it will show us a pattern that we can then try and replicate elsewhere, with different sets, with different builds, versus different enemies.

 

One room map with Hybrid and Lore fired off is kinda atypical in my book, though.  Especially given Lore's insane DPS boost and recharge.  How's it feel without Lore?

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

One room map with Hybrid and Lore fired off is kinda atypical in my book, though.  Especially given Lore's insane DPS boost and recharge.  How's it feel without Lore?

 

I agree here, Lore has a kind of bad uptime as-is and might be worth holding off on depending on the map / encounter. 

 

I'm curious though what each "step" of incarnate adds, like not using Judgement but using Alpha + Interface + Hybrid "passives", etc.

[Replacement]

On 7/10/2021 at 8:26 AM, Lockpick said:

This sounds like an indictment against balancing.  Tanks were semi-okay before the HC balancing pass and now IMO they are OP.  HC team changed Energy Melee and that power set went from being one of the worst to arguably the best.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

 

A sweeping indictment against all attempts to improve the game because you found an example of something where some people feel the team went too far.

 

Remember: right now we just have some people saying "well tanker is the best now." 

Previously, it was just standard knowledge that Tankers were the inferior class on every meaningful metric. You ignore all of this context to declare "balance bad."

 

Like @Bill Z Bubba, it impacts my enjoyment of the game to know some things are grossly out of line, that there were choices I was "supposed" to make for my character to be far stronger.

But I get just as frustrated when I know I'm overperforming, which is why most of my Brutes were made post-Tanker buffs. I could not stand playing what I viewed as a cheater class until Tanker was allowed to compete with it.  It's also why several of my characters were parked while awaiting bugfixes (like when Hail of Bullets was giving Defiance per target hit).

 

So here's a counter anecdote: the Tanker updates added two entire ATs to the list of characters I could enjoy.  Balance is good.

[Bill Z Bubba]

43 minutes ago, Replacement said:

But I get just as frustrated when I know I'm overperforming, which is why most of my Brutes were made post-Tanker buffs. I could not stand playing what I viewed as a cheater class until Tanker was allowed to compete with it.  It's also why several of my characters were parked while awaiting bugfixes (like when Hail of Bullets was giving Defiance per target hit).

 

So here's a counter anecdote: the Tanker updates added two entire ATs to the list of characters I could enjoy.  Balance is good.

 

So now you can enjoy brutes and tanks because tanks were buffed into overperforming just as much as brutes and so it no longer frustrates you?

 

I agree that actual balance is good but when everything gets "balanced" by perpetually escalating power creep, the game itself becomes so unbalanced as to become broken. Broken games aren't fun.

[Replacement]

18 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

So now you can enjoy brutes and tanks because tanks were buffed into overperforming just as much as brutes and so it no longer frustrates you?

 

I agree that actual balance is good but when everything gets "balanced" by perpetually escalating power creep, the game itself becomes so unbalanced as to become broken. Broken games aren't fun.

 

I find a way to say "I am pro nerf" in every other thread, but that's hardly changing the outcome on the topic of parity.

 

This isn't about power escalation (we have other 17-page topics on that), so let's not make this about how we could have achieved similar result by nerfing brute resist caps.

 

On the topic of making balance changes alone, I used to both: 

- make a tanker and be unhappy because I could not shed the knowledge I could have everything the same but better.

-make brutes and let them sit at level 8 because I knew I was being handed more power budget than any other AT.*

 

Due to one update, I now enjoy both.

Let's use a score card:

If Tankers were overbuffed (which I disagree with), it's like brute gets an 8 and tankers get a 9.

Pre-p4, it was more like brute gets an 8 and tanker gets a 4.

 

This continues to be my biggest beef with your "Tanker was over buffed" takes: you are mad they are even close, instead of remembering how bad it was. 

 

*Blaster sustains are the new rule-breakers on power budget, but no one wants to talk about that...

[Olerus]

One small note.  I've seen some suggest that Defenders have overwhelming defenses while still achieving blaster levels of DPS.  The former can be true; Defenders can fairly easily reach the softcap.  Some sets can even do so while maxing S/L resistance and getting a smattering of other resistances.  The latter isn't really true.  

 

The single best Defender blast is Char from the APP, followed by Dominate, followed by Blaze, followed by a few Ice Blast powers.  Slotted with two (2) 4.5 PPM purple procs and four (4) 3.5 PPM regular procs, Char has a DPA of 409 when use solo (Musculature and Vigilance providing +75% damage).  This is good, but is also means that other powers will not have said purple procs.  I have an extremely high DPS defender (Storm/Ice/Psy) as a concept, using a chain of:

 

Dominate > Bitter Ice Blast > Ice Blast > Bitter Freeze Ray

 

This deals 1556 damage in 6.6 seconds, or something close to 236 DPS.  I'm fairly certain this is close to maxing out a defender's DPS from an attack chain alone.  Now against a Pylon, said Defender would have Freezing Rain, Tornado, and 2x Lightning Storm also contributing -resistance and damage and would be cycling Aim every 35 seconds.  Cycling in these powers reduces the base DPS to around 200, but adds in roughly 40% -resistance.  Aim adds roughly 15 damage back, Tornado another 15, and 2x Lightning Storm roughly 43.  So altogether with setup and against a static target said completely focused defender can reach around 382.  

How does that compare to Blasters?  Well, a defensively specced blaster can easily clear 550 DPS.  Virtually every blaster combination can reach the same level of damage output as the defender, without needing to setup up 3 pets.  And the defender isn't reaching 90% either.  Even a clunky set like Assault Rifle is going to pump out 300-350 DPS from its attack chain alone (especially mixing in melee).  Even with procs helping to bridge the gap, it is hard to overcome the nearly double base damage.  Defenders can match non-IOed blaster damage, but they will only come up to around 66-75% of blaster damage at equal investment levels.  

 

Blasters aren't even that much less defensive.  They have higher base HP and regeneration, better ATOs, and can just as reasonably reach softcap defenses.  My main blaster is a Water/Time with 45% ranged defense, 1527 Max HP, and resistance splits of 60 SL, 50 Fire, 40 Cold, 17 Energy, 10 negative, 10 Psy/Toxic.  My defender is also a hover + ranged defense character, and has less resistances around the board with 400 less health.  

The point of this is just to give some harder numbers to the discussion.  That's all.  

Edited July 14, 2021 by Olerus

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

This continues to be my biggest beef with your "Tanker was over buffed" takes: you are mad they are even close, instead of remembering how bad it was. 

 

I remember when balance existed. Brutes didn't mingle. they hung out with stalkers. Tanks didn't die and did a ton less damage than scrappers while scrappers faceplanted often but were the boss killers.

 

I remember exactly how it was and quite frankly found it a far better game design than "screw it, it's tankmages for everyone!"

[Replacement]

12 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I remember when balance existed. Brutes didn't mingle. they hung out with stalkers. Tanks didn't die and did a ton less damage than scrappers while scrappers faceplanted often but were the boss killers.

 

I remember exactly how it was and quite frankly found it a far better game design than "screw it, it's tankmages for everyone!"

 

Fair! Bring on the nerfs! 

But my point was that I can anecdotally counter any "a change happened and I liked the game 1 reason less" with "that change gave me two new reasons to enjoy the game." 

 

It is ultimately not about procs though, so I will not pursue the topic.

 

On the topic of procs:

I tend to think @America's Angel is pretty close to the mark that the issue is very specific procs, with the additional caveat that I would like something changed so Powers devs do not need to fear introducing aoe damage powers on 60s cooldowns (Dark Melee rework v1.0, you will be missed) .

 

But if a more general proc slap-on-the-wrist were to occur, I would be interested in seeing it paired with changing all the tiny "+x% damage" set bonuses out for a global "+x% PPM" modifier.

 

Those stupid +2%s are laughable in comparison to just about any defensive benefit, whereas a 2% bonus to PPM would maintain the same "overcome your AT's weakness" benefit as +defense set bonuses currently perform. 

 

I haven't ran any numbers, it could be a disaster idea, but it seems like an interesting way to bring back some parity within the systems we already have, and still encourage diverse builds.

 

Example: pair it with a clamping on the current formula that makes PPM about 75% as effective (so attacks that are barely hitting 90% would be more like 65-70%, but you could slot +20-30% in set bonuses). This would reduce proc bombs indirectly by adding pressure to slot for proc reliability. 

 

Pre-emptive tweak: I think 60% formula penalty would be better, but with a cap performance increase to 95% (maybe even 100%).

[oedipus_tex]

Wondering if I have enough flame protective material to say this out loud: Ionic Judgment is overpowered as all hell. All the Judgments are really, but this is one just overdoes it.

 

I had posted a while back about my Vet Level 100 Elec/Psi Dominator ending up on a Market Crash Task Force that I abandoned about 10 minutes in. I was on a team with three outfitted Blasters and after watching the team demolish the first mission I couldn't find the energy to keep going, because it was clear I wasn't doing anything but sucking XP from the team. Synaptic Overload couldn't chain because things died too fast, and I couldn't drain the enemies of endurance as fast as they died. I started to look into how something like that could happen:

• Each Blaster had a nuke (145 recharge reduced by x3 on a good build brings this to around 48, with the potentially reach speeds of 40-45 recharge with the team buffs being thrown around). So to make the math easy, lets say these powers had 45 Recharge each.
• 45 Recharge hits cleanly within Judgement cycles (90 sec): 2 true nukes per cycle
  • However, Judgment hits up to 40 targets. In a saturated environment with Ionic, hitting 40 is virtually guaranteed. On this Task Force though let's round way down and say it was hitting an additional 16 +8 enemies. That means we effectively are getting half of one extra Judgment per cycle. so 1.5 Judgments and 2 true nukes within 90 seconds. To get rid of the fraction, I'll double that and just say 7 nukes in 180 seconds.

 

Three blasters armed with 7 nukes over 90 seconds = 180 / 21, which equates to a nuke every 8.5 seconds, which tracks exactly with my and many other folks gameplay experience of being completely locked out of participating in this sort of scenario.

 

 

* EDIT: Fixed a math error that had the math showing a nuke every 7.5 seconds, should be every 8.5 seconds.

Edited July 14, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I remember when balance existed. Brutes didn't mingle. they hung out with stalkers. Tanks didn't die and did a ton less damage than scrappers while scrappers faceplanted often but were the boss killers.

 

I remember exactly how it was and quite frankly found it a far better game design than "screw it, it's tankmages for everyone!"

 

I didn't. In the past I would not have ever touched a Tanker. I found them stupendously boring to play.

 

Now I do have a few.

 

When I want to act as a traditional tank role I play a tank. When I want to beat things down I play a Brute.

 

Do I think they were overbuffed? Maybe, maybe not.

 

I just find I play Tanks more now than before. I think that's a good thing.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

Wondering if I have enough flame protective material to say this out loud: Ionic Judgment is overpowered as all hell. All the Judgments are really, but this is one just overdoes it.

 

I had posted a while back about my Vet Level 100 Elec/Psi Dominator ending up on a Market Crash Task Force that I abandoned about 10 minutes in. I was on a team with three outfitted Blasters and after watching the team demolish the first mission I couldn't find the energy to keep going, because it was clear I wasn't doing anything but sucking XP from the team. Synaptic Overload couldn't chain because things died too fast, and I couldn't drain the enemies of endurance as fast as they died. I started to look into how something like that could happen:

• Each Blaster had a nuke (145 recharge reduced by x3 on a good build brings this to around 48, with the potentially reach speeds of 40-45 recharge with the team buffs being thrown around). So to make the math easy, lets say these powers had 45 Recharge each.
• 45 Recharge hits cleanly within Judgement cycles (90 sec): 2 true nukes per cycle
  • However, Judgment hits up to 40 targets. In a saturated environment with Ionic, hitting 40 is virtually guaranteed. On this Task Force though let's round way down and say it was hitting an additional 16 +8 enemies. That means we effectively are getting half of one extra Judgment per cycle. so 1.5 Judgments and 2 true nukes within 90 seconds. To get rid of the fraction, I'll double that and just say 7 nukes in 180 seconds.

 

Three blasters armed with 7 nukes over 90 seconds = 180 / 21, which equates to a nuke every 8.5 seconds, which tracks exactly with my and many other folks gameplay experience of being completely locked out of participating in this sort of scenario.

 

 

* EDIT: Fixed a math error that had the math showing a nuke every 7.5 seconds, should be every 8.5 seconds.

 

Up the recharge and make it hit harder when it's up. I think that (besides making judgement customizable at the expense of it's power, aka I can add effects to it in exchange for it's recharge) is the only nerf I could get behind.

[oedipus_tex]

10 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Up the recharge and make it hit harder when it's up. I think that (besides making judgement customizable at the expense of it's power, aka I can add effects to it in exchange for it's recharge) is the only nerf I could get behind.

 

 

If I got a chance to re-design Judgement, part of what I'd be looking at is the timing. I think what's disruptive about them right now is the damage is upfront. I think they'd work better with a built in delay.

 

One idea is for them to be player version of doom patches. You mark the ground and the power only lands X seconds later. Others like Ionic could mark the target but not actually launch until 30 seconds later. Or others could do X damage after Y second delay. The main idea being that the guaranteed investment isn't as strong.

 

Right now, because Judgement acts so fast, on many characters its always the best power to cast if it is recharged and fresh enemies are in sight. Call it the Energy Transfer gamble if you will: with some delay built in and less guaranteed pay off, you have to think a bit more about where and when to deploy this kind of power.

 

Doing this would mainly raise the damage of low DPS teams instead of multiplying the speed of already good performers.

Edited July 14, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[golstat2003]

46 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

If I got a chance to re-design Judgement, part of what I'd be looking at is the timing. I think what's disruptive about them right now is the damage is upfront. I think they'd work better with a built in delay.

 

One idea is for them to be player version of doom patches. You mark the ground and the power only lands X seconds later. Others like Ionic could mark the target but not actually launch until 30 seconds later. Or others could do X damage after Y second delay. The main idea being that the guaranteed investment isn't as strong.

 

Right now, because Judgement acts so fast, on many characters its always the best power to cast if it is recharged and fresh enemies are in sight. Call it the Energy Transfer gamble if you will: with some delay built in and less guaranteed pay off, you have to think a bit more about where and when to deploy this kind of power.

 

Doing this would mainly raise the damage of low DPS teams instead of multiplying the speed of already good performers.

 

Hmmm, Ion does a chain. Wouldn't that delay that chain even further?

 

Also keep in mind, not every Judgement is throw, there are some that are point blank (unless my memory is off). I like that not all of them are ones that are thrown. How would your idea affect those types? (or that type, I forget if there is only one).

 

Personally a power described like that with patches wouldn't really interest me as a power pick, especially with how much movement there is in gameplay currently. But others might like that  /shrug

 

If I were redesigning it, I would have made all the judgements ONE. One that you can customize with various effects that are currently spread across all the multiple judgements, at a cost of damage, recharge, range. (Similar to the idea discussed a few days ago in one of the suggestion threads). 

 

For example I would not mind a judgment that has a long non-stacking hold effect on an AV or GM, at the expense of damage. Aka a guaranteed insta hold on an AV for a set amount of time. (The amount of time would NEED to be significant if the power had no damage).

[Mezmera]

I do think there's just a snowball effect with just everything that has been revamped to where we are are at now. 

 

I do like procs and the formula we have now, but 4-6 allowable procs in a power does seem a bit overkill though.  A hybrid approach would seem fine, some procs can maintain their almost certainty they fire and then on some sets the more you have of a set slotted the higher probability of a proc firing.  I do hope they are approaching this with a scalpel.  

 

Judgement powers are very strong, I do love these incarnate powers though, they were meant as a segue to harder endgame content which hopefully them hinting at which will be coming.  I'd have no problem lowering the recharge a smidge on these powers, but they are great fun to use, I take Mighty because the animation is awesome but I know Ion is better in terms of max damage to everything. 

 

I'd like to see just how tough this new stuff will be before we start wholesale nerfing a lot of things.  Like if the new content adds features where the enemies are much more resistant to damage except when they are controlled that would address some of the gripes that control characters have about being less useful.  

 

Then yes there's the nukes in their current form, far too good, sorry but that's just the observation easily identified from last playing on live to now.  I do think there were changes necessary for nukes, snipes and some survivability for some ATs due to be tuned up but added all together it's just a tad too much.  Nukes could use a slight detune, again a scalpel, but if control becomes more important in incarnate content then some OP stuff may become less prevalent, just by function and not nerfing.  

 

I like what they did with snipes, it was a set certain tohitt value where you got your insta snipe.  Making it available at all times was a great idea for the masses but at first there was just going to be a strict damage scale nerf which hurt those already aware of its effectiveness.  They listened to some feedback and were open to letting there be a fast snipe at that lower damage scale then it scales back up to what it was before if you reached that tohitt marker, best of all worlds.  That's the optimal approach I'd want, make things a tad more accessible but leave the optimal building still available with a little ingenuity.

 

I don't think blame can be laid all on proc's, nor nukes, nor incarnates.  I think it just all adds a little too much and the glass overflows.     

Edited July 14, 2021 by Mezmera

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

If I got a chance to re-design Judgement, part of what I'd be looking at is the timing. I think what's disruptive about them right now is the damage is upfront. I think they'd work better with a built in delay.

 

One idea is for them to be player version of doom patches. You mark the ground and the power only lands X seconds later. Others like Ionic could mark the target but not actually launch until 30 seconds later. Or others could do X damage after Y second delay. The main idea being that the guaranteed investment isn't as strong.

 

Right now, because Judgement acts so fast, on many characters its always the best power to cast if it is recharged and fresh enemies are in sight. Call it the Energy Transfer gamble if you will: with some delay built in and less guaranteed pay off, you have to think a bit more about where and when to deploy this kind of power.

 

Doing this would mainly raise the damage of low DPS teams instead of multiplying the speed of already good performers.

I had considered something like adding an effect so your standard attacks generate stacks, like combo points, and your judgement can only be used when you achieve X stacks, but a delay would work (though 30s is unrealistic.  Even 5 seconds would be too slow for many [softer] players).

 

Frankly, I would just like to see HC push through the gnashing of teeth and increase all Judgement base cooldowns by 50% to start: "you are just as awesome as you used to be, but less frequently."  I bet it could even be flagged as a recharge penalty that only applies in non-Incarnate content.

 

Ohhh how I would have gone a completely different direction with the entirety of the Incarnate system...

[chi1701]

35 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I had considered something like adding an effect so your standard attacks generate stacks, like combo points, and your judgement can only be used when you achieve X stacks, but a delay would work (though 30s is unrealistic.  Even 5 seconds would be too slow for many [softer] players).

 

Frankly, I would just like to see HC push through the gnashing of teeth and increase all Judgement base cooldowns by 50% to start: "you are just as awesome as you used to be, but less frequently."  I bet it could even be flagged as a recharge penalty that only applies in non-Incarnate content.

 

Ohhh how I would have gone a completely different direction with the entirety of the Incarnate system...

 

Not everyone has access to a high end damaging aoe ability of blaster and judgements in nova or dwarf form is very handy for additional damage potential.

[America's Angel]

10 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

One room map with Hybrid and Lore fired off is kinda atypical in my book, though.  Especially given Lore's insane DPS boost and recharge.  How's it feel without Lore?

 

It's got the entire windy corridor leading up to it, so it's not just the one room.

 

Will be posting vids with/without lore when I run it. RL got me busy atm.

[arcane]

I would be good with increasing the cooldown on Judgement. 

[...]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:11 AM, Replacement said:

*Blaster sustains are the new rule-breakers on power budget, but no one wants to talk about that...

 

I do! I'll talk about 145 second crashless nukes Too!

[plainguy]

On 7/3/2021 at 9:18 AM, th0ughtGun said:

Because some AT's have better build flexibility than others, procs on those AT's are easy to abuse and make entire other AT's irrelevant. Damage procs especially need to be reduced in effectiveness nearly across the board. There are entire powersets that benefit far more than had to be intended. 

 

That being said, there has to be a happy medium (like the devs always say) that can be reached here. Buff some procs, nerf others, etc.  Balance out their effectiveness and reduce the ability to completely abuse them. 

I have an Elec/TA controller that I have proc'd out to insanity and still have soft capped defenses. It isn't hard to do. And also, it doesn't promote build diversity because honestly why would I want to do massively less damage? To gain what, exactly? If I already have soft capped defenses and perma hasten what exactly am I going to do with those other slots that is going to be better for my toon than making Jolting Chain and Acid Arrow proc bombs that do massive freaking damage (for a controller). The answer: nothing really. Here I am an abuser of the system, calling out the system for being abusable. I don't want Jolting Chain and Acid Arrow to become irrelevant, that's not what I am saying at all, but a change to the system needs to be made to find that happy medium. And I think THAT would promote true build diversity.
 

Post the build..

Not saying it is not true. I just don't want to work with MIDS or doing searches for Proc builds on the forums to prove your point. 

I did some slight messing around with a few powers and the results were not impressive.. The Proc power did a few more points of damage but recharge was 4 seconds longer.. defense set loss.. ETC.. 

I get it is one power out of a full build..  

But having a build and then doing an alternate set to look at numbers takes seconds in MIDs to review.. 

[plainguy]

8 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Post the build..

Not saying it is not true. I just don't want to work with MIDS or doing searches for Proc builds on the forums to prove your point. 

I did some slight messing around with a few powers and the results were not impressive.. The Proc power did a few more points of damage but recharge was 4 seconds longer.. defense set loss.. ETC.. 

I get it is one power out of a full build..  

But having a build and then doing an alternate set to look at numbers takes seconds in MIDs to review.. 

Never mind. Luminary already made my point on page 12.. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, plainguy said:

I did some slight messing around with a few powers and the results were not impressive.. The Proc power did a few more points of damage but recharge was 4 seconds longer.. defense set loss.. ETC.. 

Attack recharge times only matter until you’ve achieved a continuous attack chain, so that’s a non-issue at a point.

 

Defense set bonuses only matter to an extent if you are using good tactics and inspirations, so that’s also a non-issue at a point. Characters can survive at +4x8 on 45% defense or on 15% defense, the latter is just a hair trickier.

 

These caveats are real but a bit misleading.

 

(and I’m sure you know this and I need to stop replying to things without reading the whole thread...)

Edited July 16, 2021 by arcane

[nihilii]

11 hours ago, plainguy said:

I did some slight messing around with a few powers and the results were not impressive.. The Proc power did a few more points of damage but recharge was 4 seconds longer.. defense set loss.. ETC.. 

It is a little strange some arguments against procs are along the line of "but if I slot just this one power with procs then it becomes really good and I still have enough powers to make my bulid awesome with set bonuses".

 

Like... yes? Do you want procs to suck so universally there's never ever a rational reason to deviate from slotting full IO sets in everything?

 

And now that I write it out, I'm wondering if this is actually motivation for some people. Much like I've always struggled to understand "badge hunters" who gripped about some badges being a real challenge, perhaps there is an aspect of build making to some that is akin to collectionables, and 6 IOs of the same set are more satisfying psychologically than frankenslotting with procs?

 

Needless to say, while I could understand their perspective, I'd have to disagree with changing the game to fit that.

 

It's funny the discussion has now evolved to general overpoweredness. Because... I play Tankers these days. A lot. And my Tankers... die! A lot. Because I build them as proc monsters, and while this gives them fantastic damage, and their innate survivability still make them sturdy, they ARE softer than defensively-built characters filled with set bonuses. Tankers are overpowered, for sure. And yet my new baby Bio/Stone Tanker on full Incarnates dies much more often than my old(er) school MA/Shield Scrapper on just Alpha.

 

Maybe I *will* get on the Brutal Justice train to nerf defense to 40%, after all... Let's think about it. If some people slot some procs and softcapped defense and feel procs are OP, and if I slot all procs and no softcapped defense and feel I die a lot, doesn't that imply it's softcapped defense and not procs, that is truly OP? 😉 It's just that flooring enemy tohit has been taken for granted for so long, hardly anybody even thinks about it anymore.

 

Yet as far as the I6 rework of defense or whenever that came, defense started being silly good as the ability to reliably dodge most damage *coupled with* avoiding debuffs AND mezzes, just about any ill effect... cemented defense as the prime form of mitigation, especially with DDR or buffer values. Resist and regen folds like paper in comparison as they meet cascading failure just about anywhere, and the only reason the problem isn't as bad as it could be is thanks to the overpoweredness of luck insps themselves at +12.5% a pop, abundance of team defense buffs, +defense set bonuses.

 

I'm being half tongue in cheek playing devil's advocate here. But only half! NERF DEFENSE! Destroy my builds (because, yes, the reason I die "a lot" and not "ALL THE TIME" on proc builds is because I abuse luck insps too...)! Bring on the Apocalypse!

Edited July 17, 2021 by nihilii