NO TELLS PLEASE

[Nightwatch]

 

Abused again this morning because I form teams for GM runs with saying, NO TELLS PLEASE.  SHOUT IN BROADCAST.  To give a specific example, this is the invitation I use for the Boomtown GMs:

“lfm 2GMs BABBAGE + GOLIATH WARWALKER.  Come to Boomtown (off north Steel) and shout in BROADCAST.  No tells please.  ALL WELCOME.  12 quick merits, 2 cool badges.”

(In a number of cases – like the above example – the invite even includes directions to help people get to the zone.)

There’s a variety of reasons for this, including:

• much easier to organise people across teams in league when you only need to look at broadcasts
• ensures rest of league is not waiting on peeps who don’t know how to get to a zone
• avoids problem whereby you can't move people around in a league because someone is out of zone 
• avoids situations where one of my lower level alts is lowering the invitee’s level while they’re travelling to the zone
• avoids the 'You cannot invite an enemy' bullshit

I’d guess this morning’s GM run was held about 4am US east coast time on Excelsior but in the Boomtown leg, I was still having to manage a league of more than 16 people all talking in local, broadcast, team and league chats!  That can get confusing on top of moving people between league teams, answering broadcast requests for invites, TPing latecomers and trying to get my own hit in on the GM.

So when a guy sends repeat tells (“are they still up?”, “invite me”, “fucking invite me!”), and finally a tell that reads “Ignore your fucking stupid rules and invite me or ignore me!” and then puts ME on HIS ignore list, I’m somewhat pissed.

Some of my alts can solo the GMs I find but I still advertise in case others want them.

I’ve got no problem if others want to search for GMs, give shout outs, and organise teams/leagues anyway they see fit but I don’t think it’s too unreasonable for me to do all that the way that works for me.

[nihilii]

No matter how sound your logic sounds to you, when you go out of your way to do things different than most people, it's reasonable to expect some people won't play nice with these arbitrary rules.

 

Given that it's easier to change your actions than the actions of everyone else, if *I* were to insist on a "no tell" policy, I'd just make a separate chat tab without tells, and use that one exclusively. So people could send me tells all they want, I just wouldn't be notified nor read them.

Edited August 4, 2021 by nihilii

[Snarky]

I never put anyone on ignore.  

 

If i am put on ignore.  ?  What?  Some jerk doesnt want to talk to me?  Oh my.  What will I do?  

[Lunchmoney]

Some people just cant read. 

It's amazing the amount of people I have come across in my 12 years of insurance claims investigation who cant read the forms they are filling out 🤷‍♂️

[Blackbird71]

People are lazy and don't read.  You'll be lucky if they see your invitation and get as far as "lfm 2GMs BABBAGE + GOLIATH WARWALKER."  Most probably only see "lfm" and stop there.

 

As for the few who do read the whole thing, many lack the comprehension skills to process the whole message.  And then a percentage of them are egotistical enough to believe that the rules don't apply to them (as evidenced by the tell you quoted).

 

This is probably why I mostly solo.

[Dazl]

Your league, you stepped forward to create it lead it the way you want. You probably don’t want that person on it anyway.

[ZemX]

30 minutes ago, nihilii said:

it's reasonable to expect some people won't play nice with these arbitrary rules

 

There are reasons, which means the rules are not arbitrary.  That word does not mean "rules I don't agree with".

 

30 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Given that it's easier to change your actions than the actions of everyone else,

 

Looked easy enough to me if there were sixteen plus people in the league vs. one entitled jackwad who couldn't read and didn't have the maturity to deal with not getting exactly what he wanted when he wanted it.

Edited August 4, 2021 by ZemX

[Sovera]

As a landlord I can't tell you how often I've rewritten an ad trying to make it clear that I am renting an -apartment- to -students-. No matter what when it's time to rent it again I have people from all walks of life asking for it, and if the price is for a room or for the apartment (you'd think the price would tip them off that it's for the apartment if the ad itself had not clued them in enough).

 

Even after changing the ad to have in caps lock 'an APARTMENT for STUDENTS' the phone calls still continue.

[Oklahoman]

I had planned to do this as a separate post, but it fits in nicely here, so... I feel your pain, @Nightwatch

 

So, I’m recruiting for an MSR the other night, and I have this exchange via tell with someone, who shall remain anonymous:

 

Quote

 

[Looking For Group] Oklahoman: [MSR/RWZ1/NO TELLS] Bout to open a XL can of Whoop Ass (tm) on some Rikti. Everyone welcome at the MSR. Holler in RWZ1 Broadcast for invite.

[Tell] :(AnonPlayer): MSR invite!

[Tell] -->(AnonPlayer): broadcast in zone please

[Tell] :(AnonPlayer): you took the time to type that, instead of sending an invite?

[Tell] -->(AnonPlayer): Yes. Broadcasting lets me know you are in zone. Also that you can read instructions from LFG.

[Tell] :(AnonPlayer): Ok, have fun with with your MSR.

 

 

OK, so I was a bit of a jerk in my reply, but I’m also going to defend that here in a bit. Normally, I don’t reply to tells at all when recruiting for an MSR, but I had this short lived fantasy that maybe I was helping people understand the game better to respond with “broadcast in zone when you get here.” I get A LOT of tells for this event, despite specifically asking for NO TELLS.

 

The overall problem here is that in-game I can’t give you a detailed enough reason why I am not inviting you until you broadcast in zone. Now, you could just say, “I don’t need a reason, that’s a reasonable enough request so I will accommodate it.” That’d be cool. But maybe you are a bit like the person above and feel entitled to a more detailed explanation while I am trying to form my league. So, here goes...

 

BROADCASTING CONFIRMS YOU ARE IN THE ZONE

 

• You have to be in the zone to broadcast in that zone. You can’t broadcast to RWZ from, say, Atlas Park. So, broadcasting in a zone confirms you are currently in that zone.

• Rikti Warzone is limited to 50 players right now. At one point it was, for the most part, completely open and running 2 full MSRs at the same time in the same zone happened a lot. Now, a full league of 48 doesn’t leave a lot of extra space in the zone. While we can ask people who are not in the MSR to change zones, nothing requires them to do so - they could be AFK, obstinate, or just not looking at chat. Whatever the case, it is possible for the zone to be full before the league is full. When you broadcast for an invite, I know you are in the zone right now, ready to go.

• If I give a spot to a player who sent a tell and is out of zone, they may never be able to get into the zone - thus depriving someone who IS in the zone of getting to participate.

• It is easy to THINK you are in Rikti Warzone 1, when you are in fact in Rikti Warzone 2. Broadcasting helps confirm you are in the same place as the league.

 

BROADCASTING ALLOWS OTHER TEAM LEADERS TO INVITE YOU

 

• Putting together a league of 48 people can keep you pretty busy. You are probably advertising every minute or so, inviting people in, placing them in different teams, making sure you have a couple of level 50s on each team, trying to keep a mix of classes on each time, joining in the pre-game banter, etc. When you broadcast in zone, team leaders can help by inviting you to their team.

• There is a bug that has to do with alignment, and is not likely to get fixed anytime soon. If the league leader has someone on their team out of zone, the league leader may not be able to invite you. That’s another instance where it becomes important for a team leader to be able to help out.

• You may be on the league leaders gignore list. And, maybe in this case you shouldn’t be in the league anyway. But, if you broadcast and get an invite from a team leader who is NOT ignoring you, you get to participate in the raid so long as you can manage to be cool. Might even be able to get yourself off the league leaders gignore list, if that matters to you.

• There is a BlockingAccept bug where sometimes, even when everything else looks normal, you invite someone and get an error message like: “Could not Invite (player), BlockingAccept” and they have to be invited again. Here again, having the ability for Team Leaders to redundantly invite folks from broadcast is helpful.

• Much like the BlockingAccept bug, which you have to look for on your system tab, a league leader is also having to deal with players who are still on a team, or still in an AE session.

 

BROADCASTING KEEPS THE TELL CHANNEL OPEN FOR THE LEAGUE LEADER

 

• Another fun little bug in the game is that newly invited players may not get sidekicked up to level 49. Leaving the tell channel open allows the league leader to get important notifications like “I’m not showing on a team” or “I’m still showing as level 1” or “can I be on the same team as X” or any number of other matters that often come up pre-raid.

 

FOLLOWING INVITE DIRECTIONS PROVES YOU READ

 

• An MSR doesn’t require a whole lot of direction, but there are some differences in how each league leader runs it so it’s helpful to know you do, in fact, read instructions.

• Especially when you get into iTrial badge runs, reading chat is very important. If you aren’t following instructions in the LFG ad, how do we know you will follow instructions in the trial itself?

 

AND LASTLY, WHY THE HECK NOT?

 

• If you don’t know how to get to the RWZ, most leaders will put directions in their actual LFG ad. You can also use the HELP channel. Also, I’m sure a league leader would forgive a direct tell if you were just asking how to get to the RWZ, so long as you are not asking for an advance invitation.

• It’s not unreasonable for a team or league leader, regardless of event, to ask for tells - or ask for no tells at all - to get invited.

• It’s not unreasonable for a team or league leader, regardless of event, to ask you to broadcast for an invite. It’s not like I am saying solve this math problem and show your answer in the request channel. Though, that does give me an idea…

 

Look, there’s a reason why there are not a ton of people running leagues, much less 48 person leagues. You get a lot of hate, and it’s a fair bit of work. There are times I am recruiting for an hour, and other times it fills up on the first ad. You have to deal with interpersonal stuff sometimes, people who go AFK in the bowl, etc. Anything you can do to make my job easier makes me want to run these things more, so I appreciate that.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Oklahoman
Formatting

[iBot]

Hats off to everyone that goes through the pain to run these sorts of events.  They are certainly a lot of work to organize and can be a pain if some players feel they are entitled to ignore basic instructions.  Personally, if a player cannot follow a basic instruction that makes it easier for me to efficiently put together said event then they are not someone I want in the event anyway.  I wouldn't go so far as to put them on ignore but I would certainly ignore their tells.  And if they got abusive because of me ignoring them well that is why there is a chat log feature and the ability to forward it along for moderation.  Life it too short to put any energy into players that feel they are somehow better then the rest of us poor humans.

 

And lengthy explanation posts from those players that do run these events that lay out the "why" for that no tell request may just educate a few of them once in a while.

[arcane]

32 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

There are reasons, which means the rules are not arbitrary.  That word does not mean "rules I don't agree with".

If people have to read a rant like this to know your reasons, it is still reasonable to interpret your rules as arbitrary.

 

I agree with nihili. If you’re going to have special rules, ignore your tells or deal with them. Coming to the forums to whine about people not adopting your special rules is not a super flattering look.

[JasperStone]

Hami and MSR on Indom are run this way.

Having had the chance to form and run, checking Broadcast ends up being SO much easier.

[Blackbird71]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

I agree with nihili. If you’re going to have special rules, ignore your tells or deal with them. Coming to the forums to whine about people not adopting your special rules is not a super flattering look.

 

Why does everyone keep referring to these as "special rules"?  In my experience, this has been the standard procedure for a number of group activities in the game.  Want to join one of these large groups for a specific task?  Speak up in Broadcast once you're in the zone.

[nihilii]

38 minutes ago, ZemX said:

There are reasons, which means the rules are not arbitrary.  That word does not mean "rules I don't agree with".

 

"Arbitrary" can also mean "based on personal whim". Even if you think you have reasons, if your reasons differ significantly from the social norm, they are arbitrary to the consensus. And in a sense, arbitrary does mean "rules I don't agree with", provided you are part of a sizeable enough group disagreeing with a single person...

[arcane]

Just now, Blackbird71 said:

 

Why does everyone keep referring to these as "special rules"?  In my experience, this has been the standard procedure for a number of group activities in the game.  Want to join one of these large groups for a specific task?  Speak up in Broadcast once you're in the zone.

It may be somewhat of a social norm for Hami or MSR, but, in the broader game, sending a tell for a team invite is as normal as it gets. 
 

I’m not saying I don’t personally broadcast for an invite if I am told to.

 

But people coming to the forums to cry about other players doing one of the most normal things you can do? I’d rather not play with someone so uptight generally speaking.

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

I had planned to do this as a separate post, but it fits in nicely here, so... I feel your pain, @Nightwatch

Look, there’s a reason why there are not a ton of people running leagues, much less 48 person leagues. You get a lot of hate, and it’s a fair bit of work.

 

Thank you for leading great Leagues on Excelsior Oklahoman!!!

[Blackbird71]

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

 

"Arbitrary" can also mean "based on personal whim". Even if you think you have reasons, if your reasons differ significantly from the social norm, they are arbitrary to the consensus. 

 

Except they're not.  As noted, these rules are standard procedure, and the reasons are fairly well known by anyone regularly running/participating in League content.  

 

Just now, arcane said:

It may be somewhat of a social norm for Hami or MSR, but, in the broader game, sending a tell for a team invite is as normal as it gets. 

 

It's also pretty standard for GMs as well.  Anything involving a large group that needs to be in a specific zone.  So no, there's nothing unusual or "special" about these rules.  And they're not even "rules;" they're a reasonable request from a group organizer.  If you don't want to follow an organizer's directions, don't join their group and start your own.

 

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

It's also pretty standard for GMs as well.  Anything involving a large group that needs to be in a specific zone.  So no, there's nothing unusual or "special" about these rules.  And they're not even "rules;" they're a reasonable request from a group organizer.  If you don't want to follow an organizer's directions, don't join their group and start your own.

 

Again, I understand all of this. But, however bad a casual player may look for ignoring a part of a broadcasted request, I’d rather see that than self-righteous fit thrown publicly over other players.

[roleki]

56 minutes ago, Sovera said:

As a landlord I can't tell you how often I've rewritten an ad trying to make it clear that I am renting an -apartment- to -students-. No matter what when it's time to rent it again I have people from all walks of life asking for it, and if the price is for a room or for the apartment (you'd think the price would tip them off that it's for the apartment if the ad itself had not clued them in enough).

 

Even after changing the ad to have in caps lock 'an APARTMENT for STUDENTS' the phone calls still continue.

 

We are ALL students, in our own way.

[Blackbird71]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Again, I understand all of this. But, however bad a casual player may look for ignoring a part of a broadcasted request, I’d rather see that than self-righteous fit thrown publicly over other players.

 

You and I read the OP very differently.

[nihilii]

30 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Except they're not.  As noted, these rules are standard procedure, and the reasons are fairly well known by anyone regularly running/participating in League content.

I have literally never seen a single instance of someone requesting "no tells" for hunting a Giant Monster. Like... not even *rarely*. Just plain *never*.

 

For hunting a Giant Monster, or for going on an Incarnate trial, or any ingame activity, for that matter... This forum topic is literally the first instance of that rule for me. And I have clocked way too many hours in this game.

On the other hand, it is the most common sight to watch someone say...

"Kraken is up in Perez Park, pst if you want to join".
"Magi Trial about to start. Come to PD and send a tell for invite".

I could totally believe a subset of the playerbase has developed such a rule. To the point it is common sense to them.

But... if you believe that rule is an universal standard, a rule that stipulates "use this specific tool for communication and not that specific tool for communication", a rule that not only differs but goes DIRECTLY OPPOSITE to the normal standard of communication established in the rest of the game... I think you're out of touch with both the reality of the game, and of human nature itself.

People as a group are loosely herded cats at best, because we all have widely varied levels of interest and involvement. The more stipulations and requirements you invent for participation, the more likely you are to meet frustration.

By the way... Personally, I have absolutely no problem with a "no tells" rule,. I just think it's obtuse to expect everyone will obey it, and to let the inevitable transgression ruin your experience. One can shake his fist all day about how the world ought to be, but it's so much easier for the nerves to just work with the way the world is.

Edited August 4, 2021 by nihilii

[Snarky]

I was in the United States Navy at 17. I am an old man and i drive Semi Trucks for a living in a busy metro market.  ( currently watching two truck drivers in a very small lot scream at each other while i sit in dock) If there is something you can type that will offend me i tip my hat to you. 
 

i will not need to put you on ignore if this happens.  If you are that foul you will get your account banned. This will be for the simple reason that you are like that to more people than just me. That will send waves of feedback to the HC team

[A Cat]

Damn bros this is getting heated, lol. Anyway, IMO, If the leader has a stipulation, then follow it or don't try and join. If you just skimmed over it then it is your fault for your failure to read (it happens but don't blame anyone other than yourself). The leader can have any sort of term, arbitrary or not (did we ever establish what that meant?). It is their thing they're organizing. 

[Blackbird71]

36 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I have literally never seen a single instance of someone requesting "no tells" for hunting a Giant Monster. Like... not even *rarely*. Just plain *never*.

 

At least on Everlasting, it's frequently "(GM) is up in (Zone); request invite in Broadcast when you get there."  They may not always specify "no tells," but it's implicit in the instructions to post in Broadcast.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Blackbird71

[Jacktar]

Adamaster shouts (well all the ones I have seen) have always been variations on - Summoning Ada, come to ECHO DARK ASTORIA - drections how to get there, Shout in Broadcast when in zone and no tells please.

I use same system when I get him and lead.

Never had a single problem. Maybe because Ada shouts are quite frequent and so familiar, but shout in broadcast no tells works fine for it.

And support the OP, your shout, your rules np.👍