Focused Feedback: Stone Melee - Changes and Proliferation

[Sovera]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Hasn't that always been the case with Fault? 

 

No idea. Never took it before. Just suggesting a change so it doesn't nullify one of the two combat travel powers.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

No idea. Never took it before. Just suggesting a change so it doesn't nullify one of the two combat travel powers.

Oh what are the two combat travel powers that would be nullified? I'll try testing out the impacts on Fault while using them. 

[Sovera]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Oh what are the two combat travel powers that would be nullified? I'll try testing out the impacts on Fault while using them. 

 

Fly and Sorcery come to mind. Anyone with Fly takes Hover and immediately nullifies Fault. Or if they take Sorcery and use Mystic Flight during combat.

 

I understand the roleplay aspect of being on the ground to kick the ground and make a fault, I'm talking of a compromise where someone flying against the ground can still activate Fault. The code is there with Burn who it too cannot be used in the air, but can be used if grinding our nose against the ground.

[ForeverLaxx]

8 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Fly and Sorcery come to mind. Anyone with Fly takes Hover and immediately nullifies Fault. Or if they take Sorcery and use Mystic Flight during combat.

 

I understand the roleplay aspect of being on the ground to kick the ground and make a fault, I'm talking of a compromise where someone flying against the ground can still activate Fault. The code is there with Burn who it too cannot be used in the air, but can be used if grinding our nose against the ground.

I think Grounded (from Elec Armor) also works if you're close to the ground when it used to only work while standing on it.

[Sovera]

25 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I think Grounded (from Elec Armor) also works if you're close to the ground when it used to only work while standing on it.

 

Footstomp from Super Strength also as long as we are flying super low.

[BrandX]

Stalagmites needs you on the ground, hovering close to the ground doesn't allow you to use it, at least on Dominators. 

[Lazarillo]

So I'm a little on the fence about the way Seismic Smash works with Critical Hits.  In essence, I'm middling on the actual use of tying the boss-level Hold to the Critical Hit.  The purpose, to me, of giving that level of control to a melee power is to prevent enemies from using speedbump powers.  I want to avoid things like Fake Nemesis putting up their PFFs, Paragon Protectors launching MoG, etc.  A skill that creates that effect a fraction of the time, and can't be made to do so reliably, doesn't really accomplish the effect at all, in a practical sense, because I end up still having to build and fight around the assumption that I will not have a Mag. 4 Hold when I need it.

 

Now, in practice, I've played around with a Stone/ Scrapper and the set's general levels of control from knockdown, and damage out the wazzoo mean I've generally avoided needing the Hold in my experiences so far.  So this beef may be mostly academic.  But by the same token, that still means that getting a "critical" Hold isn't really meaningful.  I'm wondering if there's therefore not something better that can be done (since I do agree with the general design philosophy that says a full-damage Critical for Seismic Smash would likely be a little too amazing).

[Wavicle]

What if the Critical Hold were made something you could control?

Like, for example...

 

Perhaps all single target Stone Melee attacks could have a chance to give you a 5 second buff that does nothing except guarantee a critical Hold on Seismic Smash?

[Lazarillo]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Perhaps all single target Stone Melee attacks could have a chance to give you a 5 second buff that does nothing except guarantee a critical Hold on Seismic Smash?

Yeah, I've been trying to think of some sort of "elegant solution".  One that had come to mind was something like changing Build Up for the set from straight +Damage to a "guaranteed Critical on the next attack", and then give Seismic Smash a chance-to-Recharge-Build Up effect.  Thus allowing the Critical hold to be "stored" for when it was needed.  Something like a combo system or an Energy Lode-esque idea like you described might work as well.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Yeah, I've been trying to think of some sort of "elegant solution".  One that had come to mind was something like changing Build Up for the set from straight +Damage to a "guaranteed Critical on the next attack", and then give Seismic Smash a chance-to-Recharge-Build Up effect.  Thus allowing the Critical hold to be "stored" for when it was needed.  Something like a combo system or an Energy Lode-esque idea like you described might work as well.

 

That's a little too complex to be your elegant solution, I think...

It may be that the current random crit is actually the best solution, because the set has so much control outside of Smash that the crit really is just a bonus to help your Controller teammate get Bosses and EBs locked down sooner...I'm not sure.

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

That does not sound right... Definitively not intentional. Only power that should not do full crit is Seismic Smash.

Interesting, I figured it was intentional.

 

I know that brutes with fury can one shot minions with Heavy Mallet if my memory is correct so I thought the crit nerf was probably still going to be plenty.  Still felt like I was hitting pretty hard with it.  Nice though, incoming buff to HM!

[Replacement]

Situations I've been thinking about in regards to Seismic's Bold:

 

- The ASF is littered with EBs who will live long enough to Smash a few times.

 

- Earth/ninjutsu can start a fight with something absurd like 85% chance for crit hold on target.

 

- I don't even like to talk about it, but the ATO is real, and could be used to leverage Seismic Smash.

 

Hmm, I'm going to add ATO play to my list - I bet I can use it on this set to construct some "decision point" gameplay. 

 

--- Also just worth mentioning, it's still a mag 3 hold the rest of the time.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Gotta say, I thought y'all were crazy for porting Stone Melee to Scrappers, but I think the way it was done was brilliant.

 

I really wanted to limit test the port, so I made a Stone/Elec scrapper with absolutely no qualms about how that would effect my end bar. It was really damn fun. In my opinion, the changes to Seismic Smash were elegant. To put it into perspective, my direction with that toon was global recharge. Even at 261% global recharge (FF proc active), it still takes ~10 seconds for the power to come back. I'm fine with that. I'm really fine with it considering that a Seismic Smash with BU + Gaussian + Crit Strikes + -Res procs did like 1.3k damage to a +3 boss. I'll be looking for that guy in the obituaries.

 

Although the change to Fault is confusing, I'm still really happy that we can slot it for more than KB now. It really opens up a lot of freedom in builds that Stone Melee didn't have before. I might end up making numerous Stone Melee scrappers based on this change alone.

 

As for the newfound AoE output this version of Stone Melee has? Man, with ATOs, it kinda feels like it's overperforming in that department. Maybe I'm just used to stone being a ST-focused set, but new Fault and fast Tremor alone has mobs dropping like flies.

[Heraclea]

Will Mud Pots keep its tauntularity for Scrappers?  Scrappers need more armor sets that are tauntular.  Helps a lot to keep mobs close, and it's hard to tell taunt from slow. 

[DreadShinobi]

While stone melee is currently being looked at, can Hurl Boulder be considered for an animation time reduction that dominators received for their Hurl Boulder? I feel like this is happening more and more where certain versions of powers are getting cast time reductions and other variants are being excluded. The cast time reductions that have been implemented for powers like Total Focus and Hurl Boulder *feel* great to use and it would be nice to see Hurl Boulder at least be a passable option to consider in building your Stone Melee Scrapper.

[Golden Azrael]

Fault.  Does damage.  Finally!

 

Makes a difference on a stone tanker.  Can now stack it with tremor.  And the other stone epic that does AoE.

 

Good job.

 

Beta L50 Stone/Stone/Stone.  Epic stuff.  Much improved from what I played on live.

 

Still not sure about the 'Stone' tier 9 slow motion brick.  I never use it.  Glacial slow speed to move.

 

You can get sound Psi, En and Smashing defence with SOs and given a couple of ATs with some unqiues...you're as good as gravy without the need for slow motion tier 9.

 

I'm impressed.  Tested against +2 x8 Long Bow and Arachnos.  Smashed them to pieces.  This feels like what a tanker should be.

 

Well 'ard.

 

Azrael.

[Sovera]

*gentle hypnotic noises for Fault to have the same code of Burn/Footstomp/Tremor (all attacks that roleplay needing the ground) allowing it to be used with Hover*

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Sovera

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

*gentle hypnotic noises for Fault to have the same code of Burn/Footstomp/Tremor (all attacks that roleplay needing the ground) allowing it to be used with Hover*

 

Flashfire, the Fire Control AoE Stun, inexplicably requires the primary target to be grounded.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Wavicle

[Booper]

Build 2 - Stone Melee

 

Scrappers

Stone Melee 

This powerset has been proliferated for Scrappers. Unlike the Brute/Tanker versions, Seismic Smash hold is mag 3, not 4. The power has an increased critical hit rate (20%) but does not crit for full damage. Instead, it crits for +28% damage and inflicts double mag hold.

 

You can use the powers of earth and stone to do battle with your foes. Stone Melee allows you to strike with fists of stone, summon earthen weapons, and even quake the very ground itself.

•   Stone Fist  Melee Light DMG(Smashing), Foe Minor Disorient

  • Your stone-covered fists attack swiftly for moderate damage and may Disorient your opponent.

  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.

•   Stone Mallet  Melee, Moderate DMG(Smashing), Knockback
  • Your control over the earth allows you to form a mallet of solid stone. This Stone Mallet deals heavy damage, and can knock down weak foes.
  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.
•   Heavy Mallet  Melee, High DMG(Smashing), Knockback
  • A more impressive form of Stone Mallet, the Heavy Mallet deals more damage, but is slower to swing. It has a greater chance of knocking down opponents.
  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.
  • Fix: Erroneously low crit damage values have been adjusted to their proper values.
•   Build Up  Self +DMG, +To Hit

  • Greatly increases the amount of damage you deal for a few seconds, as well as slightly increases your chance to hit.

•   Fault  Close (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Smashing), Foe Knockback, Disorient

  • This powerful stomp can cause a seismic disturbance. This will crack the Earth itself and send a Fault towards a targeted foe, throwing him and nearby enemies into the air and possibly Disorienting them. Fault has a chance of dealing damage to foes in between you and your target.

  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.

  • Fix: Corrected enhancements allowed for the executed Fault and Fault_Cone powers.

•   Confront  Ranged, Foe Taunt
  • Challenges a foe to attack you. Useful to pull a villain off an ally who finds themselves in over their head. A To Hit check is required to Taunt enemy players, but is not needed against critter targets.
•   Seismic Smash  Melee, Extreme DMG(Smashing), Foe Hold
  • This massive attack hits with all the force of the Earth itself. It deals tremendous amounts of damage, and may Hold the target (mag 3) if they are not defeated outright.
  • Seismic Smash has an increased critical rate but does not inflict double damage on a critical hit, instead, it adds +28% bonus damage and double Hold magnitude (mag 6).
  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.
•   Hurl Boulder  Ranged, Moderate DMG(Smashing), Foe Knockback, -Fly
  • You are able to tear up a chunk of the ground beneath your feet and Hurl it at an enemy. This attack deals high damage, and can knock foes back and even drop them out of the air if they are flying.
  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.
•   Tremor  PBAoE, Light DMG(Smashing), Knockback
  • You can cause a localized earthquake immediately around you. This will deal moderate damage to every foe in melee range, while knocking them back.
  • Fix: Removed ability to slot Threat sets and enhancements.

 

Stalkers

Stone Melee 

This powerset has been proliferated for Stalkers. Unlike the Brute/Tanker/Scrapper versions, this powerset does not have Heavy Mallet nor Seismic Smash. Instead it has Assassin's Smash and Seismic Mallet.

 

You can use the powers of earth and stone to do battle with your foes. Stone Melee allows you to strike with fists of stone, summon earthen weapons, and even quake the very ground itself.

•   Stone Fist  Melee Light DMG(Smashing), Foe Minor Disorient

  • Your stone-covered fists attack swiftly for moderate damage and may Disorient your opponent.

•   Stone Mallet  Melee, Moderate DMG(Smashing), Knockback
  • Your control over the earth allows you to form a mallet of solid stone. This Stone Mallet deals heavy damage, and can knock down weak foes.
•   Fault  Close (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Smashing), Foe Knockback, Disorient

  • This powerful stomp can cause a seismic disturbance. This will crack the Earth itself and send a Fault towards a targeted foe, throwing him and nearby enemies into the air and possibly Disorienting them. Fault has a chance of dealing damage to foes in between you and your target.

•   Assassin's Smash  Melee, Extreme DMG(Smashing)

  • A signature Stalker attack. This attack does superior smashing damage on its own as a frontal attack and cannot be interrupted. However, if it is executed while you are Hidden, this attack will do tremendous damage, as you waylay your unsuspecting foe. This attack may be interrupted if you move or are attacked while executing this power and are hidden. Using this power while not hidden has a chance to critically hit equal to 33.3% times the number of stacks of Assassin's Focus. Using Assassin's Smash when not hidden will remove all stacks of Assassin's Focus regardless if you critically hit or not.

•   Build Up  Self +DMG, +To Hit

  • Greatly increases the amount of damage you deal for a few seconds, as well as slightly increases your chance to hit.

•   Placate  Ranged, Foe Placate, Self Stealth/Hide
  • Allows you to trick a foe to no longer attack you. A Successful Placate will also Hide you. This Hide is very brief, and offers no Defense bonus, but it will allow you to deliver a Critical Hit or an Assassins Blow. However, if you attack a Placated Foe, he will be able to attack you back.
•   Seismic Mallet  Melee, Superior DMG(Smashing), Knockback, Hold
  • A more impressive form of Stone Mallet, the Seismic Mallet deals more damage, but is slower to swing. It has a greater chance of knocking down opponents, in addition to a chance for hold.
•   Hurl Boulder  Ranged, Moderate DMG(Smashing), Foe Knockback, -Fly
  • You are able to tear up a chunk of the ground beneath your feet and Hurl it at an enemy. This attack deals high damage, and can knock foes back and even drop them out of the air if they are flying.
•   Tremor  PBAoE, Light DMG(Smashing), Knockback
  • You can cause a localized earthquake immediately around you. This will deal moderate damage to every foe in melee range, while knocking them back.

[Dispari]

Thank you for the stalker layout and going with the current meta letting them keep their AoEs.

[Vanden]

 

Quote

 

Stone Melee [Focused Feedback: Stone Melee - Changes and Proliferation]

Added No Weapon theme for Stone Melee Mallet attacks.

• Stone Mallet: This power now has a No Weapon power theme.
• Heavy Mallet: This power now has a No Weapon power theme.

 

Alright, this is something that many power customizations are affected by, but Stone Melee in particular. Can we please get Non-tintable versions of alternate power animations? As in, the new animations with the old FX using the baked-in colors. You can't mix and match these new animations with the defaults from other powers, because it's impossible to match the original colors with custom colors. Your only choice is to make every single power color-tintable, and the sad fact about CoH's power customizations is that customized colors never look quite as good as the originals. If what you want for your powers is basically the original colors, the defaults just look better than anything you can make; there's more detail, more depth to the textures and colors. Stone powers are a perfect illustration of this: the color-tintable rocks just look flatter than the defaults.

[Sovera]

*sad Fault-not-usable-while-flying noises*

[Keleko]

Stalker bug - Assassin's Mark is showing the words on screen, but Build Up is not recharging when the proc shows on the screen.

 

[Aracknight]

I like the weapon-free options for Stone Melee.  More customization is always better.

 

I think the logical next questions are (with standard code rant and volunteer time restraints already inherently understood): 

 

1) can we get weapon free versions for the other sets that have random swords (Fire, Ice, PSI)

2) can we get weapon ONLY versions where weapon attacks are options for non-originally weapon attacks (An all fire sword option for Fiery Melee, for example).  

 

Thank you for all your hard work.

[Croax]

Here is some Feedback without testing it on the Beta Server. I will make another post after killing some pylons and romans.

 

I really appreciate the effort to juggle some powers and make the set viable for stalkers instead of just replacing one attack with Assassin Strike. As it is now, the set reminds me of Ice Melee which is a good starting point. What i like is the fact you arranged the powers to make the leveling and unlocking of powers smooth. Fault on t3 is a good choice.

 

What i do not know yet is if Hurl Boulder is viable as a damage power. It used to have horrible cast times, which reduced the power to a set mule or utility power. Why do i bother? Well the Stalker works most of the time like this:

 

Heavy Attack-> 2 other Attacks-> Assassin Strike -> repeat!

 

Some Powersets do not have a good Heavy Attack and need to fill this gap with a snipe. Which is ok, but feels a little bit lackluster in lower level content when you not have a snipe yet. That was most likely the case with Ice Melee, where i filled the gap with Frost. That is one of the reasons i compared the two power sets. But is Fault as strong as Frost?

 

That brings me to the next point. Damage Type and overall Damage of the powerset. Stalkers are a Damage AT. That is all they bring to the table. If we would bring debuffs, the damage on the powers used to be lower to compensate the 'power budget'. And all the knockbacks and knockdowns feel like some of the power budget went into control.  Also this set deals exclusively smashing damage, whch is one of the most resisted damage types. It has no gimmicky mechanic (which i appreciate!) to allow this rule to be bend, like the combo system of street justice. The question now is if this proliferation will bring another A-Tier level Damage Powerset to the table or is it like Dark Melees overhaul which made a bad set just ok. Hopefully it is on track with the Energy Melee overhaul, which blew my mind.

 

I will make at least 2 builds. A normal one and a proc heavy Force Feedback one. Lets see how it ends up in comparison with other powersets.