Puzzled...why?

[Songseven]

9 minutes ago, macskull said:

Doesn't seem like I'm the one confused here.

 

 

so you want a challenge, but also want the handicap removed that helps create this challenge...?

 

and i am talking specifically about Mo* badges

 

 

and of course you don't care about p2w/temps compared to incarnates, they make majority of content absolutely trivial.

[macskull]

22 minutes ago, Songseven said:

so you want a challenge, but also want the handicap removed that helps create this challenge...?

 

and i am talking specifically about Mo* badges

 

and of course you don't care about p2w/temps compared to incarnates, they make majority of content absolutely trivial.

Let's try this a third time.

 

The "Master of" badges have been around since Issue 16, which launched more than twelve years ago. For the last twelve years, the requirements to earn those badges have been "complete task X with zero deaths and temporary powers disabled." That's it. I have no issue with new "Master of" badges which have additional requirements since those would have by definition been impossible to obtain on any character prior to their introduction. We now have a situation where character XYZ who was previously capable of earning an existing badge solo is no longer able to due to an arbitrary design decision. This change takes away options from players and that's never a good thing. The no-brainer choice here is to revert the requirements to what they were before the update and add a new series of badges with the new requirements.

 

As for your point about incarnate powers trivializing content: sure, a full team loaded up with incarnate powers will trivialize most things. A solo player loaded up with incarnate powers will trivialize some things. Aside from a few very specific builds, a solo player loaded up with incarnate powers is not trivializing challenges like MoRSF and MoMLTF.

 

EDIT: As a reminder, I do not personally care about these badges. I understand there's no benefit at all to these badges except bragging rights (at least prior to the last update which added additional rewards for Mo* badges). At the same time I'm also capable of feeling empathy toward players whose fun is being hijacked by poor design decisions. As a general rule I'm opposed to things being made more difficult through mandatory means.

Edited December 17, 2021 by macskull

[momentarygrace]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

People were complaining that end-game missions weren't difficult enough.  They got what they wanted.

 

I never complained. If people who read the forums are 10% and it's not unanimous even on the forums, then less than 10% were complaining?

 

The people who were complaining did get what they wanted, but everyone else got it too....

 

I have 1 incarnate, and when I want to feel really super, I play her. I like feeling really super sometimes! When I don't want to be so uber, I play other characters who are at lower levels. 

 

I like getting badges but since I solo 97% of the time, I know I won't ever get some badges. I'm philosophical about that but I see no reason to cheer when things are pushed further out of reach.  I don't complain either. It be's that way, sometimes. 

[Dombloo]

I haven't really read much of this thread, but I'll just say my piece here:

 

I don't necessarily think that this change was made because of lobbying from players that think the game is too easy. As far as I know, nothing has been done since the introduction of Incarnates (Issue 19..? maybe..?) to mediate difficulty of the TFs/SFs that have "Master of" challenges—so I imagine this change was seen as just a return to the intended difficulty for those challenges. In addition, they've added more rewards for completion of "Master of" runs (rare incarnate salvage upon earning the badge, empy/astral upon successful completion), so I imagine incarnates making the challenge somewhat trivial (and therefore potentially making the added reward a bit more farmable) was taken into consideration as well.

 

I'm kind of in the camp that the "no deaths no temporary power" setting still exists and if one wanted to get their challenge that way, its still there identical to how it was before. Yeah its kind of an ego killer that it won't be considered a "Master of" run anymore, and all those folks with their "SOLO MoLRSF NO INSPIRATION, TIME: 1:23:42" in their bio will have to re-attempt, but I do kind of feel its healthier for the game if the "Master of" badges aren't kind of a joke (which I imagine was the intention when they were first introduced). But again, just my opinion; I see the opposite point of view as well.

 

Also on a completely irrelevant note, I find it interesting that there's less uproar about the enforced x8 on Mo runs (well maybe not surprised there's less than the incarnate change, but that there's not much lol).

Edited December 17, 2021 by Dombloo

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Dombloo said:

Also on a completely irrelevant note, I find it interesting that there's less uproar about the enforced x8 on Mo runs.

 

That one makes sense to me in that those who would run at +4/x1 can generally handle +4/x8.

[Songseven]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

Let's try this a third time.

 

The "Master of" badges have been around since Issue 16, which launched more than twelve years ago. For the last twelve years, the requirements to earn those badges have been "complete task X with zero deaths and temporary powers disabled." That's it. I have no issue with new "Master of" badges which have additional requirements since those would have by definition been impossible to obtain on any character prior to their introduction. We now have a situation where character XYZ who was previously capable of earning an existing badge solo is no longer able to due to an arbitrary design decision. This change takes away options from players and that's never a good thing. The no-brainer choice here is to revert the requirements to what they were before the update and add a new series of badges with the new requirements.

 

As for your point about incarnate powers trivializing content: sure, a full team loaded up with incarnate powers will trivialize most things. A solo player loaded up with incarnate powers will trivialize some things. Aside from a few very specific builds, a solo player loaded up with incarnate powers is not trivializing challenges like MoRSF and MoMLTF.

 

EDIT: As a reminder, I do not personally care about these badges. I understand there's no benefit at all to these badges except bragging rights (at least prior to the last update which added additional rewards for Mo* badges). At the same time I'm also capable of feeling empathy toward players whose fun is being hijacked by poor design decisions.

 

i know exactly how long these badges have been around, i was part of a group that was first to obtain this on Liberty

 

 

from my perspective this was never intended to be a "solo challenge" however i imagine its still very possible, just more difficult without your incarnates,

 

and you can still solo the content you wish.

 

 

what exactly has been taken away from you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Songseven said:

what exactly has been taken away from you?

 

The ability to solo that which we WERE soloing prior to the change.

[Songseven]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

The ability to solo that which we WERE soloing prior to the change.

 

 

no it hasn't lol

 

the handicap allowing you to achieve this swiftly and easily has,

 

 

sorry for your loss...

 

 

you want the badge that badly and feel you can no longer achieve this solo without your incarnates, form a team,

 

you want the challenge, adjust the settings,

 

 

its all there.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Songseven

[A Cat]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

The ability to solo that which we WERE soloing prior to the change.

Isn't it the same gameplay wise? You can think of the badge as being moved to a new difficulty level beyond what the old "Master Of" was, but you can fight them at the exact same difficulty as before under the same parameters. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

We now have a situation where character XYZ who was previously capable of earning an existing badge solo is no longer able to due to an arbitrary design decision. This change takes away options from players and that's never a good thing. The no-brainer choice here is to revert the requirements to what they were before the update and add a new series of badges with the new requirements.

 

Just going to point out this sounds similar to revamping existing power sets -vs- making a new power set instead.

 

maybe bad timing, just saw your next post (not meaning to pile on)

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Troo

[macskull]

27 minutes ago, Songseven said:

this was never intended to be a "solo challenge"

In that case, it's a good thing everything in this entire game is only done as someone "intended" and no one ever does things the game designers never thought of.

 

32 minutes ago, Songseven said:

what exactly has been taken away from you?

While some characters will still be able to earn the badge solo with the new settings, there now exists a subset of characters who were previously able to but now will not.

 

36 minutes ago, Dombloo said:

Also on a completely irrelevant note, I find it interesting that there's less uproar about the enforced x8 on Mo runs (well maybe not surprised there's less than the incarnate change, but that there's not much lol).

I think that's because bigger spawn sizes just slow soloists down and the non-AV/monster mobs were never the challenging part.

 

19 minutes ago, Songseven said:

no it hasn't lol

 

the handicap allowing you to achieve this swiftly and easily has,

 

sorry for your loss...

 

you want the badge that badly and feel you can no longer achieve this solo without your incarnates, form a team,

 

you want the challenge, adjust the settings,

 

its all there.

Is your enter key broken? I have to edit your posts to remove all the extra blank lines or it feels like I'm trying to read a CVS receipt.

 

Aside from a very few specific builds which usually rely heavily on inspiration use (including emailing inspirations to themselves to get around the inspiration storage limit) these challenges have not been completed "swiftly and easily."

 

17 minutes ago, A Cat said:

Isn't it the same gameplay wise? You can think of the badge as being moved to a new difficulty level beyond what the old "Master Of" was, but you can fight them at the exact same difficulty as before under the same parameters. 

People weren't loading into an MoRSF or whatever going "I want to run this with temp powers disabled and no deaths," they were going "I want the badge." Sure, if all you cared about was being able to run the content with those specific difficulty settings then this change is functionally irrelevant... but I don't think that's what anyone cares about.

[Songseven]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

In that case, it's a good thing everything in this entire game is only done as someone "intended" and no one ever does things the game designers never thought of.

 

While some characters will still be able to earn the badge solo with the new settings, there now exists a subset of characters who were previously able to but now will not.

 

I think that's because bigger spawn sizes just slow soloists down and the non-AV/monster mobs were never the challenging part.

 

Is your enter key broken? I have to edit your posts to remove all the extra blank lines or it feels like I'm trying to read a CVS receipt.

 

Aside from a very few specific builds which usually rely heavily on inspiration use (including emailing inspirations to themselves to get around the inspiration storage limit) these challenges have not been completed "swiftly and easily."

 

People weren't loading into an MoRSF or whatever going "I want to run this with temp powers disabled and no deaths," they were going "I want the badge." Sure, if all you cared about was being able to run the content with those specific difficulty settings then this change is functionally irrelevant... but I don't think that's what anyone cares about.

 

this is really going nowhere,

 

 

we just have two different opinions about the matter.

[Placta]

1 hour ago, Dombloo said:

I don't necessarily think that this change was made because of lobbying from players that think the game is too easy. As far as I know, nothing has been done since the introduction of Incarnates (Issue 19..? maybe..?) to mediate difficulty of the TFs/SFs that have "Master of" challenges—so I imagine this change was seen as just a return to the intended difficulty for those challenges. In addition, they've added more rewards for completion of "Master of" runs (rare incarnate salvage upon earning the badge, empy/astral upon successful completion), so I imagine incarnates making the challenge somewhat trivial (and therefore potentially making the added reward a bit more farmable) was taken into consideration as well.

 

I'm kind of in the camp that the "no deaths no temporary power" setting still exists and if one wanted to get their challenge that way, its still there identical to how it was before. Yeah its kind of an ego killer that it won't be considered a "Master of" run anymore, and all those folks with their "SOLO MoLRSF NO INSPIRATION, TIME: 1:23:42" in their bio will have to re-attempt, but I do kind of feel its healthier for the game if the "Master of" badges aren't kind of a joke (which I imagine was the intention when they were first introduced). But again, just my opinion; I see the opposite point of view as well.

 

I can understand trying to restore the original challenge of the badges, but... the Paragon devs left them alone when they introduced Incarnates and didn't touch them over the next five issues. Homecoming left them alone for a couple years. Why now?

 

Also, badges get easier over time. Alpha shifts made Master Ajax (and to a lesser extent, Tin Mage) easier. Avoids the Green Stuff got easier with Incandescence Destiny. When the Magisterium was in beta, Positron made a post saying he wasn't even sure The Really Hard Way was even going to be possible at the time but would get easier as we got more powerful.

 

(Last and least, I find it a bit silly to give Incarnate rewards for a challenge that disables Incarnate powers, but meh.)

[Faultline]

8 minutes ago, Placta said:

I can understand trying to restore the original challenge of the badges, but... the Paragon devs left them alone when they introduced Incarnates and didn't touch them over the next five issues. Homecoming left them alone for a couple years. Why now?

 

Because there was no way to disable Incarnate powers using challenge settings until now.  They were introduced in Issue 11 and never updated; even when the Epic powersets were lowered to level 35, the challenge settings continued to act as if they opened at level 41. The new challenge settings are why we can do it.

[Frozen Burn]

11 hours ago, Ukase said:

A lot has changed for me in since the latest patch hit. I've been angry, delighted, wrong, right, against something, only to be persuaded to look at things differently. 

I am truly puzzled sometimes at what goes through the minds of those that are running this game. 

Fact or fiction: Only 10% of the player base reads and posts on the forums. 

Fact or fiction: The game is too easy. For everybody. At all levels. Only at incarnate levels. 

Fact or fiction: The new Master of TF/SF settings are good for the game. 


I could go on. And on. I'm really trying to have an open mind, but I'm old, and it's difficult. I've been trained to not be easily swayed and skeptical. I was toilet-trained at gunpoint, what can I say? 

Hidden in gigantic letters and a picture in the patch notes that I somehow overlooked, turns out a Master of Kahn or Barracuda disallows incarnate powers. Never mind that I have 5 characters that got the Master of Kahn and Master of Barracuda (more properly known as Master of the 5th Column Task Force and Master of the 5th Column Strike Force, respectively). And they got to use incarnate powers. 

So are those characters to be stripped of this badge and forced to re-earn it? That doesn't seem to be the case. Yet, as far as I know, there's no distinction between the badges, whether earned pre or post patch. Is that right? Is it proper? Am I making too much fuss out of nothing? I've been fairly isolated due to the pandemic, and remain so, and as a result, I can hardly tell when I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. 

I already know some are for, and some are against any issue presented. It made sense that with the 3 new Master trials - Eden, ASN, and MC that they might be set up differently, as they're trials and not task forces. Not at all sure why they have two terms for the same type of experience. What's the difference, anyway? So, when I saw that incarnates were disabled for these new master trials, I didn't think much of it. But to modify the requirements for badges that are already earned in game goes against the grain of how this game has been run. 

I encourage the HC devs to think about this a bit more. This inability to use incarnates during a master TF/SF is a new requirement for badges other folks have already earned much more easily. I don't think this is the right way. In fact, I KNOW it's not the right or fair thing to do. But I'm not paying a penny, so all I have is this forum to encourage you to rethink your position on this. For new badges, go nuts if you must. But for badges that are already in game...that's not right. At least, I don't think it's right. Opinions will vary, as they often do. 

I'm sure there are people that play this game and enjoy such challenges. I like some challenges, but I like challenges that let me use my character's powers to it's full effect. Like in Really Hard Way, in the Magisterium. Even the disallowing of buffs I'd already paid 8 hours for that are now wasted, because they're not a toggle as was earlier suggested they would become is okay, because I can still use the powers that I earned, as opposed the ones I paid for from p2w.

Now, a master run is more like an ouroboros challenge mission. None of this, none of that. Forget those countless runs of BAF and Heather Townsend. Those powers you earned mean nothing to anyone now. If you want to use them, you'll have to do non-master run activities. No badges for you. 

I don't think I'm alone in stating that while some of us like challenges, we want to use our powers, too. All of them. 

 

 Master runs were in game before incarnates and were a challenge.  The badges earned were a badge of honor at the time.  Then incarnates came out and Master of Statesman TF (now Ms. Liberty) and Master of LRSF became stupid easy.  The level shifts made the foes -1 and people stroll through them like they're nothing.  What's the point of having a special badge for unique settings, if incarnate powers counter it?  

 

And if you want to run content with all your incarnate powers, then don't run a master run.  Run them at +4 and use your powers that you worked hard to get.  Nothing wrong with that.  But to earn a special "Master of" badge that's supposed to be for a difficult task - it then should be a difficult task and incarnate powers stripped. 

[Vulpoid]

Immunity to polio was a lot harder to earn in the 1920s.
But we did not deny the vaccine to future generations because they hadn't worked hard enough for it.
Things change, and that is OK.  Be happy for those who do not have to suffer.

[Shred Monkey]

I don't think Incarnate powers made the badges much easier.  I mean, I'd say 80% of my Khan runs have 0 deaths just because they're so quick and easy that there was no threat.  I understand the frustration if you're build counts on ageless destiny to manage endurance issues (for example), but bringing along a kin support toon should cover that gap just fine.  And wasn't that the point?

 

The one thing I don't like about what I've seen since the release is that there are fewer people chasing the hard content then I wanted.  I think if they had made Aeon just a little shorter it would have gone a long way to making it more attractive.  But in general it's added an element to the game that was strongly desired by many and I look forward to seeing more of it.

 

That said, as a general rule I don't like imposing handicaps on characters to add difficulty.  I want to take my most powerful build though challenging content, not an artificially weakened version of that build.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[The_Warpact]

It falls to this, and it is two trains of thought.

People who team to accomplish things and those of us that can't stand to team with you.

 

Now that being said, the standard for us to get the MO badge has been taken away, ie incarnate powers. Because, trust me when I'm duo with my friend and we are trying to do a Master run on 4x8, we need that extra bit and even then its a slog. So its a challenge to us, one we have to plan for, build for, etc.

 

Now thats been taken away because not only has incarnate powers been taken away, but enemies have buffs across the board which for a duo is now impossible. 

 

So in my mind its you either team or you cannot enjoy sections of the game that you once enjoyed. Why is this exactly? Why do I have to be forced to play with people that I have no desire to team with to do something that I once could. 

 

If you hadn't noticed this isn't WoW there isn't a gigantic population to just team up with, if anything smaller team content should be a huge consideration. 

 

For the record we had a rare instance that 4 of us out of a 6 person VG got together to run the ASF we tried to run it on Vicious final tally was 5 hrs and 89 deaths. That wasn't even a master run. So how is a duo going to run this on MO now?

 

For those saying that the game was too easy, I'm sure it was with a league or a full team. But, the rest of us just got left by the wayside. There was no consideration for the small team or solo people or the casual folks.

 

Final note like @Placta said, wtf would you give out incarnate rewards for something that you can't use!? Hand out purples or ATOs.

 

@Ukase I hear ya.

Yes, I'm grateful the old girl is back. But, a huge part of my and others gaming is no more. So what now? Join a pug? Yeah f that.

[Ukase]

42 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

I don't think Incarnate powers made the badges much easier.  I mean, I'd say 80% of my Khan runs have 0 deaths just because they're so quick and easy that there was no threat.  I understand the frustration if you're build counts on ageless destiny to manage endurance issues (for example), but bringing along a kin support toon should cover that gap just fine.  And wasn't that the point?

 

The one thing I don't like about what I've seen since the release is that there are fewer people chasing the hard content then I wanted.  I think if they had made Aeon just a little shorter it would have gone a long way to making it more attractive.  But in general it's added an element to the game that was strongly desired by many and I look forward to seeing more of it.

 

That said, as a general rule I don't like imposing handicaps on characters to add difficulty.  I want to take my most powerful build though challenging content, not an artificially weakened version of that build.

 

In my case, I level my characters up through content, typically. So, none of them rely on any buffs, only the IO set bonuses, really. 
And what you state about fewer people pursuing the hard content is part of the reason for my post. A solid player, Mezmera - I saw them recruiting for a ..I think it was relentless or vicious, but in prime time, it took them over 20 minutes, maybe 30 to finally fill it. In fairness, a few that might have joined Mez were teamed with me at the time, doing a malicious run for Master of Aeon. 

See, I'm hearing "so many people wanted this harder content" and yet, I don't see much evidence of this in practice. I just don't think it's the case. Just a vocal minority. 
I don't wish to imply in any sense that Aeon isn't a good SF. It is. The advancement of difficulty through the various challenge settings IS clever, and I think well done. And hopefully it will lay the framework for future new content. But it IS long, and needlessly so. They also dropped the ball on the rewards. The higher difficulties should reward a lot more than they do currently, but that's just my opinion. 

[Ukase]

14 hours ago, Songseven said:

 

 

a little dramatic...

So, I should just shrug it off, say nothing as if it's quite alright? 
I don't think that's the best idea. I think when they change something that has an impact on how you play, you owe it to the community to ask why. 

[Ukase]

11 hours ago, Songseven said:

what exactly has been taken away from you?

 

The ability to earn the badge in game by myself has been taken away. 
In October, I was good enough. Now, I'm not. So yeah, @Faultline, I can run it with no defeats, no temps - but I don't get anything for it, other than useless merits. No flashy badge title. There's no more motivation. You've taken the carrots away from this ass. You can beat me all you like, but if the carrot isn't close enough, I'm not gonna budge. 

It's 7:30 am,(my time) I'm up for Worthy Opponent, but the usual suspects won't be on until 5-8pm my time. During which I'll be hit or miss as to my availability. Will I ever understand why this game that was so cleverly adapted for a smaller player-base and solo-friendly, now takes such a turn to make it not solo friendly (with regards to MO badges) ?

Anyone can say, "Well you can still do X, you just can't get the badge for it now." That doesn't make it right. It just happens to be the way it is now. And I dislike it, as it takes away the motivation to do the content by myself as I did before. 

Was it so horrible that I preferred the convenience, no-stress, no expectations to consider, other than my own? Apparently. Now, if I want to be an effective badger, now I have to be a good teammate that can drop real life to play when it's convenient for other folks who want the same badges I do.  It would be one thing if the servers were highly populated, and one could find reliable players at any hour, but that is not the case. Not for all of us. 

I understand that it's impossible to make us all happy. I get it. I think when you changed the rules, you made a mistake. Just my opinion. 
I do get that it's possible these changes are made with long-term perspectives in mind. Imagining legitimacy as a server, and who knows what else. I hope that happens. 

But for now, I'm just an ass looking for a carrot. 

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

I think "they" are a vocal minority. Why did "they" get what they wanted? 

 

I think it was because they asked and it was easy enough to do.

 

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

I guess I'm just pissed because now, a LOT of the stuff I used to be able to solo with my lore pet, now I don't have the option anymore. My lore pet is disallowed because "they" didn't like it. Screw "them". I liked it, and I want it back. There, I said it. I only wish it made me feel better.

 

"Options for 'No Incarnate Powers' and 'Only Alpha Slot' were added to the powers options for any arc in the SL9 (Level 45-50) categories. Completing a Flashback arc using these two new options rewards two new Ouroboros category badges." - https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32758-patch-notes-for-november-26th-2021-issue-27-page-3/ 

 

 

So if you don't use the "No incarnate powers" setting you can't use lore pets?

 

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

It's not easy testing this stuff. Takes time, and I can appreciate the efforts involved by these folks, whomever they are. I just wish they'd thought about the folks that like to solo stuff. I much preferred soloing MoITF, making wise use of Lore pets and super inspirations.

 

Challenge Modes [Focused Feedback: Advanced Difficulty Options and Challenge Mode]

 

17 hours ago, Ukase said:

I guess that's why it's called City of Heroes instead of City of Super Heroes. 

 

 

Most dictionary definitions and common usages of the term are generic and not limited to the characters of any particular company or companies. Nevertheless, variations on the term "Super Hero" or "Superhero" are jointly claimed by DC Comics and Marvel Comics as trademarks.

But sure, that was a somewhat satirical dig at the best super(hero) MMO ever made.

 

So at this point, if you don't like it, I think you know where the "exit mission" button is ... just being satirical - of course.

You could actually help playtest.

You could post on the Focused Feedback threads.

Or  you can run around waiving your arms in the air screaming the sky is falling (people love to accuse me of that for much less)

[Bionic_Flea]

10 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

Because there was no way to disable Incarnate powers using challenge settings until now.  They were introduced in Issue 11 and never updated; even when the Epic powersets were lowered to level 35, the challenge settings continued to act as if they opened at level 41. The new challenge settings are why we can do it. (emphasis added)

 

There is a difference between "can" and "should."  I really like the new difficulty settings in Aeon, and the Aeon TF in general.  The ability to add difficulty, power, and complexity to critters and content is amazing and I look forward to seeing what can be done in the future with that tech.

 

But what many in this thread are saying is that the team should not have changed the requirement for the existing "Master of" badges but rather done something like what was done with the "Worthy Opponent" badge - add a new badge for a new (or reinstated) difficulty level. 

 

I understand that the original "Master of" badges were obtained without incarnate powers and that this is a reversion to those times.  But I think this may be the first or at least one of the few times that badge requirements were made more difficult and not easier.

 

This issue wasn't commented on much or at all during testing, because most people were looking at the new content and new power sets and not on changes to existing badges.  So please consider these critiques as if they were made during testing.

[Hew]

Of all the things that could happen, there should be a vast sense of relief that TF/SFs were not min-team-size locked.

 

[tidge]

17 hours ago, iBot said:

As a general rule, whenever I see someone mention the mysterious "They" I immediately substitute "I" and the argument suddenly makes sense.

 

I expect no less from an iBot.