Kinetic Melee needs Revamp

[MetaZombie2]

Hey all,

 

@Blunder here from Excelsior. First of all, thanks to everyone who makes CoH possible. The whole Homecoming team is awesome. I was recently forwarded to this forum specifically after mentioning a problem I noticed in-game. So here it goes:

 

Honestly, I love the animations of Kinetic Melee. I've made two toons in-game, anticipating their damage to be "acceptable", and I find it heartbreaking to find out their damage isn't even close to other sets in the field.

 

Example: I made a Kinetic Melee/Shield Scrapper. Assuming the average damage of a scrapper, I figured [Siphon Power] would synergize nicely with [Against All Odds]. I got her to 50, completely kitted her out and entered a 54 radio mission. I like to do this on most of my new toons as a warm up. First of all, Siphon Power needs a tweak. Yes, I agree, you should NOT have 5 stacks of Siphon Power forever. I do believe that you should be able to get 2-3 attacks off with a Full 5-stack of Siphon Power though and this is just not obtainable despite how quick KM attacks fire off. With multiple layers of Against All Odds, I struggled to get to a 5-stack of Siphon Power and used my T9 melee (Concentrated Strike) expecting it to be able to basically 2-hit a boss... I barely put a dent.

 

I recently made a Radiation Armor/Kinetic Melee Tanker. The numbers looked good for Resist/Defense so I decided to try something "out of the box". My hope was that the damage numbers would be different. (I.E. Maybe Kinetic Melee isn't broken for other ATs?) The result was an unkillable Tanker that couldn't kill anything back. She essentially just waves vigorously at enemies until my team kills them. My Tanker struggles to even take out minions. 

 

Suggestion 1: The Damage Table for Kin Melee needs to be changed across the board. You might even be able to DOUBLE their damage for it to start contending with other damage sets.

Suggestion 2: Change Siphon Power to resemble other combo systems in the game. "Once you purchase [Siphon Power] your attacks will start building stacks of Siphon Power and reduce your target's damage. Upon activating this power you will be able to consume these stacks to multiply your damage accordingly. Once Siphon Power wears off, you will be unable to siphon damage from targets until it has recharged."

 

This change would allow players to play Kinetic Melee tactically (reducing targets damage with the AoE Cone and PBAoE) or offensively (activate Siphon Power once you have 5 stacks to use that damage towards your T9). This might require adding "Finisher" language to KM similar to Street Justice.

 

Of course, this is a jumping off point for dialog. Anyone else have a stronger suggestion? (Thanks all)

[SeraphimKensai]

Kin Melee is pretty much only playable as a stalker. It's pretty lethargic across the other ATs.

 

I would probably change it up so that all the attacks drain damage and add it to the player as they do now when using power siphon without actually needing power siphon up to the traditional 5 stacks.

 

I'd then change power siphon to act as a PBAoE Fulcrum Shift that only affects the user, that allows the user to exceed the 5 stack cap for a period of time to levy some really jaw dropping hits before wearing off.

[Cutter]

21 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Kin Melee is pretty much only playable as a stalker. It's pretty lethargic across the other ATs.

 

I would probably change it up so that all the attacks drain damage and add it to the player as they do now when using power siphon without actually needing power siphon up to the traditional 5 stacks.

 

I'd then change power siphon to act as a PBAoE Fulcrum Shift that only affects the user, that allows the user to exceed the 5 stack cap for a period of time to levy some really jaw dropping hits before wearing off.

Or a slightly different approach and flip Siphon Power into a Reach for the Limit-type passive, only with the -dmg (foe) ability tacked on? I'm not sure, functionally, how different that would be to just increasing damage numbers across tho board tho. Personal Fulcrum Shift is a pretty cool idea, tho very similar in effect to Soul Drain? Maybe that is what it wants tho?

 

Oh and also can we cut some of the animation times down?

[SeraphimKensai]

34 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Oh and also can we cut some of the animation times down?

Yeah definitely, perhaps the animations get quicker the more stacks that you have? Because you know you have a lot of kinetic energy to propel those attacks to the enemies face.

[Cutter]

40 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Yeah definitely, perhaps the animations get quicker the more stacks that you have? Because you know you have a lot of kinetic energy to propel those attacks to the enemies face.

Eeeeh I'm not sold on a momentum-like approach to how the powers behave under different circumstances. I'd think a pass to lower a few of the animation times (specifically looking at Repulsing Torrent, Burst, Focused Burst, Concentrated Strike... and even Power Siphon if it remains a click) would be sufficient.

 

But to look at that idea from a different angle, a spicy approach to changing things up (stealing from our supporting Kin friends) would be giving Power Siphon a +/- rech effect, on top of the existing +/- dmg & +tohit. Basically a hybrid Siphon Power/Siphon Speed approach. And I can't think there are any melee sets that grant a recharge buff, so that would be a nifty little unique selling point. That might be too much, but since we're spitballing here...

[Thrythlind]

The wind-ups are pretty, but they are sooo long, and it seriously impacts my ability to contribute as a Brute. It's fine solo and pretty fun, but in a team I feel like I'm lagging behind.

[BrandX]

9 hours ago, Thrythlind said:

The wind-ups are pretty, but they are sooo long, and it seriously impacts my ability to contribute as a Brute. It's fine solo and pretty fun, but in a team I feel like I'm lagging behind.

 

Quick Strike 1.056

Body Blow 1.32

Smashing Blow 1.452

 

All three of those match the animation times of Claws, if not LOWER...

 

Follow-Up 1.056

Focus 1.32

Slash 1.584

 

Not sure where you get that Kinetic Melee is so slow.

 

Burst takes a little longer than Spine, but only by .3 seconds.

 

Kinetic's Range attack is likely there for utility, more than all the time damage.

[kelika2]

I just want a regular buildup on all ATs.  fire my kin/fire stalker is fun but i cant stand others.

 

If you wanna keep the spirit of the set have all attacks at varying % chance to proc a stacking 5% dmg buff

Maybe 50% chance for the T1 attack, 5% for an aoe.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

I just want a regular buildup on all ATs. 

 

... my claws are sharp and I will cut you. Followup for the win.

[kelika2]

13 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

... my claws are sharp and I will cut you. Followup for the win.

meh, on brutes i just dont notice it since its a drop in the bucket compared to Fury

I dont remember the last time i considered a scrapper for anything

and lack of aoes on stalker veered me away

Might consider a WP/Claw tank named Bullmarine assuming I can get the bullhead on an army outfit with a yellow spandex suit under it

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

meh, on brutes i just dont notice it since its a drop in the bucket compared to Fury

 

Still 60% all the time (doublestacked) vs 80% for a third of the time. And if cranking fu, focus, slash, focus is getting 90% most of the time from triple stacked fu.

 

But... ya gotta hit with it to begin with... so there's that.

[Brutal Justice]

On 1/19/2022 at 7:24 PM, BrandX said:

Quick Strike 1.056

Body Blow 1.32

Smashing Blow 1.452

 

All three of those match the animation times of Claws, if not LOWER...

 

Follow-Up 1.056

Focus 1.32

Slash 1.584

 

Not sure where you get that Kinetic Melee is so slow.

It’s partially a perception issue.  Some of the animation times may be similar but it’s the time at which the damage is applied that people notice.  

 

Kinetic melee generally winds up then strikes very quickly applying the damage at the very end of the animation.  Claws and other sets apply the damage right away and have pauses at the end of the animation which makes it “feel” quicker even though you spend the same amount of time in the animation.

 

However, repulsing torrent is laughable compared to shockwave, and concentrated strike’s critical is not as impactful as similarly slow attacks like devastating blow and energy transfer.

 

Power siphon is also a 2.112 animation with no initial +damage and slow stacking minor +damage.  Build up is 80% damage in a 1.32s animation.  Repulsing torrent doesn’t even add a stack of plus damage with power siphon!   

 

I think repulsing torrent is super fun, but it’s actual performance and handicaps are offensive in a bad way.  Power siphon is also terrible.  Fixing these two powers is likely all kinetic melee needs.  

 

Data to provide info about the “perception” of kin melee being slow. 

 

Animation time before effects:

kin melee

BB - 1s

QS - .5s

SB - 1.233s

RT - 1.833s

Burst - 2.167s

FB - 1.667s

CS - 2.533s

 

claws

strike - .5s

swipe - .5s

slash - .5s

spin - 1.2s

fu - .5s

eviscerate - 1.7s

shockwave - .633s

 

 

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

It’s partially a perception issue.  Some of the animation times may be similar but it’s the time at which the damage is applied that people notice.  

 

Kinetic melee generally winds up then strikes very quickly applying the damage at the very end of the animation.  Claws and other sets apply the damage right away and have pauses at the end of the animation which makes it “feel” quicker even though you spend the same amount of time in the animation.

 

However, repulsing torrent is laughable compared to shockwave, and concentrated strike’s critical is not as impactful as similarly slow attacks like devastating blow and energy transfer.

 

Power siphon is also a 2.112 animation with no initial +damage and slow stacking minor +damage.  Build up is 80% damage in a 1.32s animation.  Repulsing torrent doesn’t even add a stack of plus damage with power siphon!   

 

I think repulsing torrent is super fun, but it’s actual performance and handicaps are offensive in a bad way.  Power siphon is also terrible.  Fixing these two powers is likely all kinetic melee needs.  

 

Data to provide info about the “perception” of kin melee being slow. 

 

Animation time before effects:

kin melee

BB - 1s

QS - .5s

SB - 1.233s

RT - 1.833s

Burst - 2.167s

FB - 1.667s

CS - 2.533s

 

claws

strike - .5s

swipe - .5s

slash - .5s

spin - 1.2s

fu - .5s

eviscerate - 1.7s

shockwave - .633s

 

 

 

I never felt those attacks to be slow (the ones mentioned) even if the damage is applied at end.  This could be due to me not paying attention to when the damage number pops up and just going on killing things 😛

 

I did mention however that unlike Focus, I don't think Ranged Burst is meant to be part of the regular attack string.  I don't even think Repulsing Torrent is supposed to be regular AOE.  I felt (and I am sad about this with Ranged Burst) that they're meant to be more utility.  Peg those runners.  Knockback that group about to take you down.

Burst, close enough to other PBAOEs I don't worry much about that one.

CS is slower, and I've said before that I think it needs to be able to crit at least part of it's damage, but I do believe it's the slowest of the "heavy hitter" attacks.

Can't speak on Power Siphon as it's been so long since I played the set, I don't recall my experience with it. 😛

[Razor Cure]

I agree that the set feels slow, even if data actually shows it isnt that bad. And really, people are gonna worry about either side, perception or performance, so its an issue for most players of the set.

I also agree that all the powers should give at LEAST -damage to enemies, all the time. No other set has effects (like fire dot, dark -to hit etc etc) that simply dont do anthing unless X power is active. Of course, there are combo type sets, but even those combo powers still do other things without the combo going.

Concentrated Strike is also just meh compared to  other big hitters. Slow and feels even slower, plus the animation can look utterly awful, if you have a small toon of happened to turn as you hit it..the animation basically bends you in half.

I like the idea of Power SIphon, and stacks of PS, making attacks faster.

 

[AxerJ]

Just giving this a nice bump.

[BrandX]

As I've been maining the set...

 

Focused Burst needs to be updated.  Should get a damage increase to increase it's DPS, in line with the others so it can be part of the regular attack chain.  I like my idea of giving it the snipe treatment and that can make it so either you can't take the other snipes (locks em out) or they're on the same recharge.  Or hell, able to take two 😛  But just putting it in line with Body Blow or Smashing Blow would be good.

 

Concentrated Strike needs to crit for Scrappers/Stalkers.  I feel that's just a given.  Even if it's partial crit.  If able, get it's animation time down to Total Focus time and it'll probably be a solid t9 set.

 

Now, I can swear I get 5 Power Siphons going at once, but using Concentrated Strike w/ it's long animation knocks that down and it has to be built back up.  Maybe if they lasted a second longer?

[Frozen Burn]

I want to like Kin Melee.  I like the concept, the animations, and even the sounds... But as stated above, it's too slow and not enough damage.  

• You get the most damage output from just rotating between T1-T3 attacks.  
• I rarely see any stacks of Siphon Power above 3 because everything animates so slowly, and when I can get 5 from only using T-T3 attacks quickly, by the time I hit my T9, the stacks are gone.
• The Cone and the KB is useful for me (but i realize many may not agree)
• The ranged attack can be useful at times, if you can activate it on a runner before they get out of the short range the power has.
• Burst's radius is WAY too small and rarely gets more than 2-3 foes; it's animation is also too long to add into any rotation.
• The T9 - I believe the animation was shortened at one point, but still... it's too ungodly long to work into a power rotation, especially when fighting AVs/GMs or anything you need to burn quickly.  Again - you get more DPS from just the T1-T3 attacks.  Adding in your T9 slows it down WAY too much.

Lots of great suggestions from others above and I hope this set can get a revamp / update.  

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Frozen Burn said:

I want to like Kin Melee.  I like the concept, the animations, and even the sounds... But as stated above, it's too slow and not enough damage.  

• You get the most damage output from just rotating between T1-T3 attacks.  
• I rarely see any stacks of Siphon Power above 3 because everything animates so slowly, and when I can get 5 from only using T-T3 attacks quickly, by the time I hit my T9, the stacks are gone.
• The Cone and the KB is useful for me (but i realize many may not agree)
• The ranged attack can be useful at times, if you can activate it on a runner before they get out of the short range the power has.
• Burst's radius is WAY too small and rarely gets more than 2-3 foes; it's animation is also too long to add into any rotation.
• The T9 - I believe the animation was shortened at one point, but still... it's too ungodly long to work into a power rotation, especially when fighting AVs/GMs or anything you need to burn quickly.  Again - you get more DPS from just the T1-T3 attacks.  Adding in your T9 slows it down WAY too much.

Lots of great suggestions from others above and I hope this set can get a revamp / update.  

 

I've done testing, and at least with Scrapper, you're better off using Concentrated Strike in the chain than just the first t1-t3 attacks, at least for the hard single targets.  For normal enemies, I would agree, generally faster to just use the t1-t3 attacks and Burst (which I feel gets more then 2-3 foes, but I do try to be in the middle of the group).

 

However, that CS for Scrappers helps recharge Power Siphon.  I did test with just the t1-t3 attacks, which I talked about in the Pylon Damage Thread in the Scrapper Forum.

 

For Scrappers and Stalkers at least, I wonder if CS being able to crit would be enough for it's DPS besides just shortening it's animation.  However, that doesn't seem like an idea that would help Brutes/Tankers.

 

Focused Burst, I just really want made into an attack that was worth putting into the ST DPS chain, so I can use it all the time!  Love it's animation so much!

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I feel like long cast time powers should do more damage in general to offset the um ya know long cast times lol. Also make siphon easily stackable but also randomize its effect. sometimes siphon power, sometimes speed, sometimes endurance, sometimes life. The randomness keeps things interesting

[Darcstar3000.coh]

Kinetics melee is a fun set to play in my opinion.  The animation however is a bit long but I don't believe it needs to be shortened however the damage from that set is lacking and needs a buff. It has to many light attacks and that should not be for melee rang. So yes to be fair increase the damage of that set take away most of the light attacks and make them moderate to extreme. It is a week arch type for all that animation winding up power,  but there's no damage.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Darcstar3000.coh

[honoroit]

dont f-bomb with Ted Dubois.

 

id like to play kinetic melee, but never have. because why nit spines.

[BrandX]

Got to thinking on this set.

 

While I still believe Focused Burst needs to be made into a real attack.  157.15 base damage at it's animation time should be just under Smashing Blow without enhancement in terms of DPA.  Not sure how enhancement would factor in after the fact honestly, but I do feel either way, it's become a useful regular attack even if it's on the longer side.

 

Give CS the same crit damage that ET/TF get for Scrappers/Stalkers.

 

Then the last thing I thought the set could get was a -Resist component.  Could be the melee version of Sonic Blast.  

 

[Solarverse]

16 hours ago, BrandX said:

Got to thinking on this set.

 

While I still believe Focused Burst needs to be made into a real attack.  157.15 base damage at it's animation time should be just under Smashing Blow without enhancement in terms of DPA.  Not sure how enhancement would factor in after the fact honestly, but I do feel either way, it's become a useful regular attack even if it's on the longer side.

 

Give CS the same crit damage that ET/TF get for Scrappers/Stalkers.

 

Then the last thing I thought the set could get was a -Resist component.  Could be the melee version of Sonic Blast.  

 

 

Honestly, I am surprised that people are worried about this set when pretty much every lethal set (Claws, Ninja Blade/Katana, Spines, Dual Blades...etc etc) in game suffers insanely in both maximum damage and being the most resisted. So honestly, for as long as those sets are sitting at the absolute bottom of the tier list at the D and C Tier, (according to @Croax's list) where Kinetic Melee sits at a comfortable B, I just can't get on board with buffing medium performing sets when others have been dying in the dumpster for way too long already. Not picking a fight, just saying how I feel about the whole thing.

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Honestly, I am surprised that people are worried about this set when pretty much every lethal set (Claws, Ninja Blade/Katana, Spines, Dual Blades...etc etc) in game suffers insanely in both maximum damage and being the most resisted. So honestly, for as long as those sets are sitting at the absolute bottom of the tier list at the D and C Tier, (according to @Croax's list) where Kinetic Melee sits at a comfortable B, I just can't get on board with buffing medium performing sets when others have been dying in the dumpster for way too long already. Not picking a fight, just saying how I feel about the whole thing.

 

I honestly don't recall Kinetic Melee being considered B tier.

 

@Ston has it in the D tier with Staff Fighting.  Only considered B tier on Stalkers.

 

Though, the -Resist was just an idea I was thinking of Kin Melee also being a sort of Sonic Melee (so -Resist).  But the CS geting crit needs to be done regardless imo and making Focused Burst a good attack instead of a pass by many would be great too.

[arcane]

7 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Honestly, I am surprised that people are worried about this set when pretty much every lethal set (Claws, Ninja Blade/Katana, Spines, Dual Blades...etc etc) in game suffers insanely in both maximum damage and being the most resisted. So honestly, for as long as those sets are sitting at the absolute bottom of the tier list at the D and C Tier, (according to @Croax's list) where Kinetic Melee sits at a comfortable B, I just can't get on board with buffing medium performing sets when others have been dying in the dumpster for way too long already. Not picking a fight, just saying how I feel about the whole thing.

Croax does Stalker stuff, and that’s the only AT where KM is any good. 
 

Claws, Katana, and Dual Blades are great sets, not sure what you’re talking about.

Edited October 2, 2023 by arcane