Masterminds gain the power to have pets merge into gestalt.

[Voltor]

This was suggested back on live by me and I figured I'd suggest it again.

 

In a Malta group if 2 hercules units are damaged enough they will merge into a Zeus.  When fighting Rularuu Natterlings I have observed that 2 minions and merge into a lieutenant ranked Natterling.

 

So the power/mechanics of merge/combination into a gestalt appear to be at least somewhat in the game.

 

For masterminds it could work like this:

 

All 6 pets are summoned, they are fully equipped and upgraded. At this point a new button that Masterminds would have lights up and is ready to be used.  However if even one pet is defeated before it is pressed the button greys out until pets are summoned and equipped/upgraded again.

 

Upon pressing the button, the pets merge into a Gestalt, which has all the powers of all the pets but the powers are greater then the sum of the parts thus the powers are stronger when merged.

 

Bots become a super robot

Demons merge into a super demon: use the artwork for Ractespriel the contact for the third treespec trial.

Soldiers merge into a super soldier

Undead form into a super lich

Thugs merge into a super brute

Animals merge into a giant wolf

 

If the gestalt is defeated, all pets must be summoned again.

 

Gestalt duration: 5 minutes, after which the gestalt can either depsawn and all pets return in their separate forms, or else all pets must be summoned again.

 

If you summon pets while the gestalt is out, it will despawn, or else pet summon powers grey out while gestalt is out.

 

The Gestalt despawns when you zone.

 

Recharge time of the power to merge: 30 minutes.

 

Many has been the time when I would love to give the command to my bots: "MERGE INTO DEVASTATOR!"  or "All units! ASSEMBLE VOLTRON!"  or something similar.

 

While this would be a serious upgrade to Masterminds, I do not believe this would be a game breaking change to them.  They wouldn't have the power to merge pets until level 32 and that is presuming they have all pet powers plus the equip and upgrade pet powers.

[MTeague]

I think this is something that might be a good idea as the unique power for a new MM set. 

Same way Necromancy gets Soul Extraction, or how Thugs gets Gang War.

A new MM set could get something like this.

 

An across the board option for existing sets.... doesn't make sense to me. 

Thugs are .... well... thugs. Most of them can't exactly join forces into Captain Planet. 

 

Maybe most people don't care about whether it breaks theme or not. Or maybe more people are willing to simply handwave it in, and make it work for their headcanon, or simply don't care because Rule Of Cool. 

 

But I think it'd be cleaner to make it the new special of a new MM set.

[Rudra]

*looks through OP* *rechecks OP* *hopes just missed it and looks through OP again* ... What about ninjas?! Why does everyone overlook ninjas?! 😭

 

Anyway, not sure how I feel about this idea. It can work for bots... but I don't really see it making sense for the other pet types. Unless you're trying to make Legion from Castelvania, or a giant robot of any kind, merging MM pets into a gestalt seems a bit far-fetched. Making a new type of MM that has that power though? Depending on the pets gained, could very well be an interesting take on the MM AT.

[plainguy]

I've posted similar but to allow the Mastermind the option of having less pets but stronger, but built around the character build. As you can have 3 builds and they can only be changed at the trainer. 

This way I can create a Mastermind with just one pet that is equal to 6 pets as you mentioned or if not picking up the assault bot for example the other pets might pick up extra powers. 

I am sure there is a DPS number for the pets they work with. Defense numbers, resistance, and debuffs

 

[arcane]

4 hours ago, plainguy said:

I've posted similar but to allow the Mastermind the option of having less pets but stronger, but built around the character build. As you can have 3 builds and they can only be changed at the trainer. 

This way I can create a Mastermind with just one pet that is equal to 6 pets as you mentioned or if not picking up the assault bot for example the other pets might pick up extra powers. 

I am sure there is a DPS number for the pets they work with. Defense numbers, resistance, and debuffs

 

His is kind of a cool idea if well balanced as a sort of godmode on a longass timer. 
 

I don’t think you should get a permanently stronger T3 pet just because you don’t want to manage the T1’s, so sorry don’t like this idea. Your choices to go semi-petless should remain self-gimping.

Edited February 2, 2022 by arcane

[Spaghetti Betty]

On 2/1/2022 at 5:40 AM, Voltor said:

Bots become Voltron

Demons merge into lawyers

Soldiers merge into a DVD copy of The Expendables 2

Undead form into the Deadite general from Army of Darkness

Thugs merge into Vin Diesel

Animals merge into Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon

Heh, nice.

 

 

I'm behind the idea of MMs getting some kind of big desperation thing, but I don't know if it's summoning (or merging with the power of friendship) one big guy. I would be more on board with this "Now, you die!" button leaning more towards commanding your pets to use a one-off big attack.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just drop their end costs back to .8 like everyone else.

[lemming]

Thunderbats form enormous bat!  <sorry, just rewatched that episode of The Good Place>

[Replacement]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:39 AM, arcane said:

I don’t think you should get a permanently stronger T3 pet just because you don’t want to manage the T1’s, so sorry don’t like this idea. Your choices to go semi-petless should remain self-gimping.

 

Why?

 

Why shouldn't I get to make a wolf-only beast MM?  Why is it important that such a combo be self-gimping?  What value is that decision adding to you?

 

This whole thread leaves me baffled.  Voltron merging is somehow in support (which makes you no longer/less of a pet class) but if playing with fewer pets is the goal, somehow it's suddenly a sin. 

 

You disembodied thumbs are inane.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

 

Why?

 

Why shouldn't I get to make a wolf-only beast MM?  Why is it important that such a combo be self-gimping?  What value is that decision adding to you?

 

This whole thread leaves me baffled.  Voltron merging is somehow in support (which makes you no longer/less of a pet class) but if playing with fewer pets is the goal, somehow it's suddenly a sin. 

 

You disembodied thumbs are inane.

The distinction I made is that it would be cool *as a balanced godmode* - very low uptime being key. I’m thinking Gang War level of uptime at the very maximum.
 

If you’re going to talk about changes with high uptime, then we have to really take a much harder look at balance. T3 pets are absolutely trivial to manage and keep alive compared to lower tiers. If you aren’t willing to manage the lower pets, we sure as hell shouldn’t be rewarding you with a more powerful T3 pet *unless* no longer having to manage the lower tier pets is accounted for and well balanced. For instance, the amount of power added to the T3 pet would have to be far far less than the amount sacrificed by forgoing T1/T2. And ofc you should be stuck with one pet’s worth of bodyguard too. 
 

In other words, no, it’s not completely out of bounds, but if I told you how little we could add to the T3 pet and still maintain balance, you’d probably no longer want it.

 

Again, maintaining T1 and T2 pets is like the only challenge MM’s have going for them. If you want to strip that away, you should be strongly punished by the numbers because that’s how balance works. You don’t get to add features that make you stronger for less work. Less work = you will be weaker or it’s a non-starter, and this is WAY less work.

Edited February 3, 2022 by arcane

[SeraphimKensai]

I'd be okay with a click based ability added an a revamped inherent that sacrifices all your minions while boosting your damage, tohit, hp, defense, and resistance temporarily for say 60 seconds with a 6 minute base recharge (global recharge can affect).

 

During that time all your minions are despawned. If you summon any minion during the buff, the buff is deactivated.

 

I'd chalk this up to the times in comics where someone like Mumm-Ra realizes his shock troops just can't handle the Thunder cats, so he assumes his true form as Mumm-Ra The Everliving. He becomes a temporary badass, but can't keep it up, and after he's spent his energy withers back into a husk of his true power.

 

What value the stats would be buffed to, I'm open to discussion.

[Replacement]

41 minutes ago, arcane said:

The distinction I made is that it would be cool *as a balanced godmode* - very low uptime being key. I’m thinking Gang War level of uptime at the very maximum.
 

If you’re going to talk about changes with high uptime, then we have to really take a much harder look at balance. T3 pets are absolutely trivial to manage and keep alive compared to lower tiers. If you aren’t willing to manage the lower pets, we sure as hell shouldn’t be rewarding you with a more powerful T3 pet *unless* no longer having to manage the lower tier pets is accounted for and well balanced. For instance, the amount of power added to the T3 pet would have to be far far less than the amount sacrificed by forgoing T1/T2. And ofc you should be stuck with one pet’s worth of bodyguard too. 
 

In other words, no, it’s not completely out of bounds, but if I told you how little we could add to the T3 pet and still maintain balance, you’d probably no longer want it.

 

Again, maintaining T1 and T2 pets is like the only challenge MM’s have going for them. If you want to strip that away, you should be strongly punished by the numbers because that’s how balance works. You don’t get to add features that make you stronger for less work. Less work = you will be weaker or it’s a non-starter, and this is WAY less work.

 

Orrrr it would require other things to manage in the place of the additional pets. I mean, the hit to bodyguard is explicit, because that's how that mechanic works.  Between that penalty and the loss of an automatic mob of free action economy, it would already be a huge hit to an MM's bottom line.

 

Throw in the idea that you would probably have to invest in something in the place of those extra pets to make a few superpets and I don't see a problem at all.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Replacement

[Sovera]

Several weak minions or one strong minion I know which one I'd take.

[TheZag]

Can i have my bots merge into a voltron and then its chest opens up and i hop inside and control and attack with it directly?

[merrypessimist]

On 2/1/2022 at 11:35 PM, Rudra said:

*looks through OP* *rechecks OP* *hopes just missed it and looks through OP again* ... What about ninjas?! Why does everyone overlook ninjas?! 😭

 

 

Because they're too sneaky, obviously.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

Why?

 

Why shouldn't I get to make a wolf-only beast MM?  Why is it important that such a combo be self-gimping?  What value is that decision adding to you?

 

This whole thread leaves me baffled.  Voltron merging is somehow in support (which makes you no longer/less of a pet class) but if playing with fewer pets is the goal, somehow it's suddenly a sin. 

 

You disembodied thumbs are inane.

 

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

Orrrr it would require other things to manage in the place of the additional pets. I mean, the hit to bodyguard is explicit, because that's how that mechanic works.  Between that penalty and the loss of an automatic mob of free action economy, it would already be a huge hit to an MM's bottom line.

 

Throw in the idea that you would probably have to invest in something in the place of those extra pets to make a few superpets and I don't see a problem at all.

 

You want less pets? Take less pets. There are actually petless MMs out there. Why? I don't have a clue. However, saying you want a pet to get stronger because you are not taking the other pets is like saying you want your <insert power set choice> abilities to get stronger because you are skipping other powers in the set. As someone who plays a lot of MMs, I'm against getting a stronger pet just because you skipped some of the pets. The gestalt idea is interesting, though I still think it should be a unique power to a new type of MM, but as presented, it still requires you to develop your pets. And, you lose those pets while the gestalt is active. You get a short duration super pet with a looooooooooong recharge. That works. Not a constantly available super pet.

[plainguy]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:39 AM, arcane said:

His is kind of a cool idea if well balanced as a sort of godmode on a longass timer. 
 

I don’t think you should get a permanently stronger T3 pet just because you don’t want to manage the T1’s, so sorry don’t like this idea. Your choices to go semi-petless should remain self-gimping.

Never said permanent. 

Never said godmode

This is the whole problem here.. People like yourself are injecting words and thoughts never conveyed and then debating what "YOU THINK" I said.. 
You can't do that.. I mean you can.. But doesn't make it right..

[plainguy]

On 2/3/2022 at 3:38 PM, arcane said:

The distinction I made is that it would be cool *as a balanced godmode* - very low uptime being key. I’m thinking Gang War level of uptime at the very maximum.
 

If you’re going to talk about changes with high uptime, then we have to really take a much harder look at balance. T3 pets are absolutely trivial to manage and keep alive compared to lower tiers. If you aren’t willing to manage the lower pets, we sure as hell shouldn’t be rewarding you with a more powerful T3 pet *unless* no longer having to manage the lower tier pets is accounted for and well balanced. For instance, the amount of power added to the T3 pet would have to be far far less than the amount sacrificed by forgoing T1/T2. And ofc you should be stuck with one pet’s worth of bodyguard too. 
 

In other words, no, it’s not completely out of bounds, but if I told you how little we could add to the T3 pet and still maintain balance, you’d probably no longer want it.

 

Again, maintaining T1 and T2 pets is like the only challenge MM’s have going for them. If you want to strip that away, you should be strongly punished by the numbers because that’s how balance works. You don’t get to add features that make you stronger for less work. Less work = you will be weaker or it’s a non-starter, and this is WAY less work.

You keep using this word Godmode.  I just don't see where anyone said that.. 

The timer would be the standard Mastermind timer.. They are around until they die.. 

What you are then have to infer is when pets are not around, you are gimped.  Then I would say why doesn't every class have a similar weakness ? 
If I am creating 1000 DPS per minutes with my pets and then drop down to 10 DPS because of no pets and then I have to deal with re-summoning, which in itself has its own sets of issue.

1. Pets summoned can be attacked but cannot attack back, thus causing a second wipe. This delay is about 7 seconds long.
2. You need to run away to summon pets in a "safe place" in the mission. If you happen to wipe near the door, that safe place is outside the mission. Which means you will have to wait to zone in because mobs linger around the door. 
3. You do the math on wait time on resummons. It is a significant DPS decrease compared to any other AT.
4. If DPS were so great then you would not be seeing TONS of Mastermind farm build threads instead of Brutes and Tanks. 
5. You would be seeing tons of threads on Mastermind boards on how to squeak out DPS..

The fact is there is only so much you can do with a Mastermind. If you play a Mastermind you will see you are required to take X amount of powers. There is no working around this.. To play a Mastermind and survive you just have to build a certain way.  Otherwise you get the My X Mastermind is squishy, the pets die a lot threads. 

 

Which in turn circles the asking player back to key builds. Again it isn't rocket science, just look at every key build in Masterminds. I mean the go to I want to kick the best ass I can builds.. You literally might have 3 powers you can choose from an Epic/Ancillary MAYBE.. Because sometimes something like Scorpion Shield just takes precedence.    

It is as simple as going to the Mastermind forums and looking at key builds. Robot Traps Tankermind.. You have a choice of Provoke or no Provoke. Then how to slot your pets with Key Invention IOs to make out their defenses and resistances. Then choice of Epic/Ancillary. But then you have to spec for recharge because Triage Beacon is big and having double Triage Beacon is close to necessary, which you pretty much get because you need a high recharge to get double Trap powers out.. 2 acid mortars, 3 caltrops.. ETC.. 

And this list goes on for each Mastermind Primary. In some instance it is almost the same exact build with different pets.. EG Trick Arrow and then fill in the pets. 

 

Bodyguard mode over 6 pets with 1000 HP combined or 1 pet with 1000 HP. 
What you miss out on is the 2 pet slots of 12 unique IOs with one pet.. So there is an inherit gimp. 
You are not Godmode as you keep pushing.. 

 

At the end of the day if the Developers said we can do this and make it balanced what is the issue. 
Again I don't know the numbers behind what the pets should be doing and not doing. I don't know if there is a formula which says, Mastermind pets should have these hit points and these buffs and debuffs combination to have a weight score of X.. 

I am pretty sure if we started looking at the code we would start to see some similarities. EG Robots have 100 HP but have these buffs and these defenses. Beast has 80 HP but has these debuffs and these higher defenses which equal them out.. If I give you a 20 defense and 100 hp and then give you 15 defense and 100 hp and a -5 to hit debuffs on all attacks. It is just about the same. I am sure someone will do the math where they would say actually you need -3 to hit  to be equal or something. 

But we are not here to do the math. That is what the Developers do if they so choose too. They might say this is beyond me to figure out and balance. I can do code and such and I emulate a power and change it up but I can't do this type of work. At least not with a full time job.. 

So with all this being said.. 

You are saying that 1 pet using Robots for example and combining their hit points, let say 1000 for argument sake is More powerful then 3 sets of pets ( 6 in total). 

Mind you Bodyguard mode is still in effect. 

 

Below is the full list of powers.. You can see there are duplicates. 

So to the Assault Bot you would be adding Seeker Drones, Deflection Shield, Photon Grenade and a Heal Self.

A heal self could be emulated by a Robot drone that comes out with the upgrade ( think targeting drone ) Non-targetable. This same drone can pump out the defense bubble. 

Or you have 2 Targeting drones out.. Whatever they think is cooler. 

 

But now this bot might need a few changes number wise. Yea I understand that the protector and battle are lower levels. Thus get killed more. 
So I completely understand that a level 49 or 50 Assault bot with 1000 hp is much different than 6 bots at various levels with 1000 hp. 
So yea the Developers would have to do some math to see what is fair and balanced and have the players test it out.

I don't know maybe the aggro base against the assault bot will be much hire since you no longer have 7 targets but only 2 for mobs to fight.

 

But I will tell you this. There will be a decent amount of players who would be happy to say, Hey we got a cave mission, can you switch to one pet mode if you have it before coming in. 
You know there was a reason why the expansions had giant sewer systems. They eventually wanted to redo the caves in similar fashion. 

 

Finally no one is looking to something underhanded here and its a bit insulting when you keep implying that. 
There is nothing here that says, when posting a suggestion you required to do all the math around your suggest to prove your case. 

And finally to say that the developers would just jump on something so blindly without thinking it out is a bit silly. 

I can only imagine the developers now saying, Whew.. Thank goodness Arcane said godmode, I didn't see it.. I was about to implement this today and make it go live.. Wow we averted this crisis thanks to Arcane calling out Godmode.. 

Assume everyone has the best interest and things wouldn't be so adversarial on these boards. 

 

Basic Powers	Smash (Smash, Disorient, ToggleDrop)
	Plasma Blast (Energy, Knockback, -Regen)
Equip Powers	Dual Plasma Blast (Ranged Area of Effect Damage (Energy), Knockback, -Regen)
	Flamethrower (Cone, Extreme Damage over Time (Fire))
Upgrade Powers	Swarm Missiles (Ranged Area of Effect Damage (Fire/Smashing), Knockback)
	Incendiary Missiles (Ranged Area of Effect Damage (Fire/Smashing), Ignite)

 

Basic Powers	Laser Blast (Minor Energy Damage)
	Smash (Smashing)
Equip Powers	Heavy Laser Burst (Moderate Energy Damage, Knockdown)
Upgrade Powers	Full Auto Laser (Cone, Energy, Moderate Damage)

 

Basic Powers	Laser Blast (Minor Damage)
	Force Shield (+Defense)
Equip Powers	Heavy Laser Burst (Snipe, Moderate Damage)
	Repair (Heal 30%)
Upgrade Powers	Photon Grenade(Ranged Area of effect, Minor Damage (Energy/Smashing), Disorient)
	Seeker Drones (-To Hit, -Damage, -Perception, Disorient))

 

 

 

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, plainguy said:

You keep using this word Godmode.  I just don't see where anyone said that.. 

The timer would be the standard Mastermind timer.. They are around until they die.. 

What you are then have to infer is when pets are not around, you are gimped.  Then I would say why doesn't every class have a similar weakness ?

 

1) “Godmode? Nobody said that.” Uh, yeah, *I* said it, because a very low uptime godmode style fusion of your 6 pets into 1 is the only way I would ever support Mastermind’s ever being designed to use only 1 pet. Otherwise, no, /jranger, I don’t like your idea, etc. If it’s not low uptime, it’s in conflict with how Masterminds are designed (Primary: Pet*S*).

 

2) Umm, every AT *does* have that general weakness and has *always* had that weakness. That is, every single AT *is* self-gimped if your ignore the function of their primaries. There is nothing inconsistent here. Petless Masterminds should be and are as self-gimped as Armorless Tanks or Attackless Scrappers are. This is literally how the game has always worked and only you don’t seem to understand it. Likewise, 1-Pet Masterminds should be about as functional as 1-Toggle Tankers or 1-Attack Blasters: aka not very optimal at all, by design.

 

The rest of your post probably continues to deny the nature of the game’s core design (don’t get to both neglect your primary function AND be as good as everyone else). Because you are completely out of touch or in absolute denial about how the core game functions, your suggestions tend to be obvious non-starters, so there is no point in me reading further.

Edited February 5, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

[Luminara]

On 2/1/2022 at 6:40 AM, Voltor said:

Demons merge into

Soldiers merge into

Undead form into

Thugs merge into

Animals merge into

 

Sausage.  Like the Stay Puft Marshmallow man, but a lot gorier.

[xl8]

King of similar to the open source Synergist power. So you can either adopt said archetype or, as previously suggested, incorporate on a thematic level. But ninjas and soldiers combining into... something, kinda leans towards New Dawn brokeness.

[MetalSiryn]

This is a good idea.  All minions have to be summoned, and fully upgraded before you can merge them.  However, instead of it having a time limit, make it a permanent summon, like the rest of your minions can be controlled, have high HP unique resistances/defenses, etc.  However....when it's defeated, or you change zones, it's de-summoned, and the cooldown is one hour, like the 'Return to Battle' and 'Renewal of Light' unique self-revives.

 

And give the Gestalt a Taunt that works on AVs.

 

This way, no one can abuse it, and you'll be able to fight the AVs as a Mastermind, and not have the AV just walk through your minions, kill the mastermind and move on to someone else.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, MetalSiryn said:

This is a good idea.  All minions have to be summoned, and fully upgraded before you can merge them.  However, instead of it having a time limit, make it a permanent summon, like the rest of your minions can be controlled, have high HP unique resistances/defenses, etc.  However....when it's defeated, or you change zones, it's de-summoned, and the cooldown is one hour, like the 'Return to Battle' and 'Renewal of Light' unique self-revives.

 

And give the Gestalt a Taunt that works on AVs.

 

This way, no one can abuse it, and you'll be able to fight the AVs as a Mastermind, and not have the AV just walk through your minions, kill the mastermind and move on to someone else.

Masterminds are already a top tier class in AV fights btw