Self-ish vs Self-less builds...

[Indystruck]

Yeah, I love the 4* ITF/Aeon for consideration of powers that may have been easily skippable in other content.

[DrunkFlux]

21 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Yeah, I love the 4* ITF/Aeon for consideration of powers that may have been easily skippable in other content.

Well I also thought about other support powers, and the higher * ratings I do appreciate they increase the value of support significantly.  My only issue perhaps is the feeling of leadership becoming a necessity, it can hurt build variety in the same way stamina did during the pre-inherent fitness days.  It's easy to take that for granted.  On the other hand, thankfully, leadership powers can be pushed till the end of your build, where your down to largely optional ancillary pools.  It's also easier to skip travel powers if necessary with athletics/ninja/beast run available.

 

Leadership is much more a "pool power you have to very, very strongly consider, even potentially feel you 100% MUST take".  Instead of a key power in a primary/secondary it's a pool, which is kind of where I draw the line on 'necessary' powers.  Even hasten is actually very optional in the long run; a heavily IO'd build could very well have so much cooldown reduction hasten may have little impact(like on my main blaster, hasten litterally only cuts a few seconds from geyser, not enough to warrent a full power slot, when I could, well, fit leadership tactics in). 

 

But to-hit is far harder to come by naturally and is very rare in main/secondary power sets, build up and aim do NOT count; they are not permanent, you will always have lots of downtime with them, and so less to-hit in those times, even with a max cooldown reduction build.

 

Thats why Leadership: Tactics is so valuable, and useful.

 

Support builds can consider, of all classes, actually skipping leadership: tactics, if they have strong built in to-hit buffs already.  I actually only have TT: Leadership rather than leadership; Tactics on my widow, largely due to mind link also providing some +to-hit and I have TT: Leadership slotted for extra to-hit.  I still have just about every other leadership and tactical training power, exclusing leadership: Vengeance(only need TT: Vengeance).

 

The weakest leadership power though, is still Leadership: Assault, if only because unless they load a lot of enemies into the missions with taunt/placate, the damage buff is the only factor you typically see from assault, and it's damage boost is miniscule for it's endurance cost.  So it's still skippable most part.

 

At least leadership is only 2 powers to be effective, rather than 3 powers like stamina used to be.

[DrunkFlux]

I should also mention many defense debuffs can hit through defense ratings easily, such as freezing rain and sleet; they only need 1 tic and the debuff applies.  So it's not end of the world.  If anything, leadership is most useful for alleviating weaknesses in support within a team.

[biostem]

10 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Tankers (along with Blasters, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers) the lowest values across all of the Leadership powers compared to other ATs.

I just checked in-game, and my tanker is getting 2.63% base for maneuvers and 10% base for tactics, so I think your chart is off...  I also checked assault, and it said the base value for that was 15%.

[KC4800]

If I play Masterminds, Defenders or Controllers I try to fit in as much Leadership as the build allows. My Blasters and all my melee characters take all primary and secondary powers, there is usually not room for full leadership, but I'll take either Assault or Tactics if there is room, and I can see a benefit. Which mean, I guess, that according to the OP, I play both selflessly and selfishly, depending on the AT. And I am completely okay with that.

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

I just checked in-game, and my tanker is getting 2.63% base for maneuvers and 10% base for tactics, so I think your chart is off...  I also checked assault, and it said the base value for that was 15%.

 

Not my chart. That's the chart from the Homecoming wiki

[RobotLove]

Tanker & Brute Changes

Scaling & Stats

• Tanker:
  • Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95,
    • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase.
  • Buff modifiers increased to match Controller values.
  • Damage buff cap increased from 400% to 500%.

 

 

Page 4 buff to Tanker values.

HC Wiki chart is a rip from the old Wiki.

[BlackSpectre]

11 minutes ago, RobotLove said:

HC Wiki chart is a rip from the old Wiki.

It shouldn't be... I remember updating that page myself. Let me go check it out. Maybe its a different page or something...

Edited September 17, 2022 by BlackSpectre

[BlackSpectre]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:59 PM, biostem said:

I want to start by stating that this topic is targeted toward people who team, so if you solo, please disregard.  Secondly, if your primary or secondary already includes powers that grant buffs to your team, this is also less directed toward you.  That being said, why don't more people take leadership?  More specifically, I'm referring to maneuver and tactics - those defense buffs really add up, and the tohit buffs means more of your attacks connect, (both being crucially important on harder content).  Is it just a matter of builds being that tight?  Is it just a general lack of knowledge of how good these powers are, when there are multiple stacks?  Is it not wanting to have yet more toggles to manage?  Even on my characters that get lower values for these powers, I still find them immensely valuable.  Thanks for reading!

As far as the Leadership Pool goes, I always try to take it but it isn't always possible for my build goals. For all the reasons you mention. But you're right, they're awesome if you can manage to add them without gimping yourself.

[Erratic1]

I still wouldn't take Maneuvers except to mule a LotG (though that holds for everyone), but Assault and Tactics look worth it for a Tanker/Brute.

[Snarky]

29 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I still wouldn't take Maneuvers except to mule a LotG (though that holds for everyone), but Assault and Tactics look worth it for a Tanker/Brute.

Assault is not worth it for Brutes.  It is a piss poor sidecar to Fury in my opinion.  When solo it is unnecessary and when teaming (on a good team) you will probably peg damage cap without it in tough fights so it holds you back by eating endurance and taking up a very valuable power pick. Brutes are always short power picks

Edited September 18, 2022 by Snarky

[Ironblade]

12 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Tankers (along with Blasters, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers) the lowest values across all of the Leadership powers compared to other ATs.

 

 

 

 

 

The chart is wrong.  Tanker Leadership toggles got buffed.  I seemed to recall that had happened and logged into a tank to check.

Assault:  +15%

Tactics:  +10%

Maneuvers:  +2.63%

[BlackSpectre]

OK, checked out the HC Wiki. The Damage page is  the one I was thinking of. That was updated.

 

I can't seem to find a page on general buff modifiers based on archetype. Maybe my search-fu is wanting... Oh! You were looking at the Leadership Pool page. Yeah, although the page was updated in 2021, that chart hasn't been updated since 2010.

 

Maybe we need a new page on Buff Modifiers for Archetypes?

 

 

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

OK, checked out the HC Wiki. The Damage page is  the one I was thinking of. That was updated.

 

I can't seem to find a page on general buff modifiers based on archetype. Maybe my search-fu is wanting... Oh! You were looking at the Leadership Pool page. Yeah, although the page was updated in 2021, that chart hasn't been updated since 2010.

 

Maybe we need a new page on Buff Modifiers for Archetypes?

 

 

 

Leadership - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki

 

[Luminara]

8 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

Maybe we need a new page on Buff Modifiers for Archetypes?

 

They're displayed at the top of each archetype page, on the right, but they're collapsed by default.

 

 

But if you want to put together a separate page, https://cod.uberguy.net/html/modifiers-table.html?mod=default .

[BlackSpectre]

Can anybody who has a tank with vengeance log in and give me its numbers? I figure it's a good idea to verify the the Vengeance Effects By Archetype chart is correct...

 

This is what the Wiki says it is for tankers...

 

Archetype	Defense	Damage	ToHit	Resist	Heal
Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow	25.00%	35.00%	35%	69.2%	7.5%
Blaster	17.5%	43.75%	26.25%	55.36%	8.0%
Brute	18.75%	35%	35%	69.2%	6.43%
Controller	22.5%	28%	28%	55.36%	11.6%
Corruptor	21.25%	29.75%	29.75%	55.36%	9.0%
Defender	25%	35%	35%	55.36%	13.2%
Dominator	21.25%	29.75%	29.75%	55.36%	11.6%
Mastermind	22.5%	28%	28%	55.36%	14.7%
Peacebringer, Warshade	18.75%	31.5%	31.5%	62.28%	9.0%
Scrapper	18.75%	43.75%	35%	69.2%	7.2%
Stalker	18.75%	35%	35%	69.2%	8.0%
Tanker	25%	35%	35%	86.5%	5.14%

[Ironblade]

1.  Some had already updated the Leadership table for the new tank values before I got there.  Outstanding.

2.  I updated the historical section to indicate which issue changed the tanker values.

3.  None of my tanks have Vengeance or I would check that.

[Erratic1]

Okay, Tankers have been updated on the Leadership page.

 

Now it is just Blasters, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers who have no reason to take Leadership.

 

<insert comment about how Brutes get the short end of the stick again>

[BlackSpectre]

Man, that is a lot of work to add separate modifier numbers to each archetype. The more I learn about what's at the Wiki, the more impressed I am with the people who wrote the Paragon Wiki. The amount of time and work that went into it is astounding. 

 

Thanks, @Luminara, I didn't even know about those drop down modifiers on the archetype pages! What I'm thinking is... that's a lot of work! ROFL 

 

I was wondering if all those archetype pages could refer to a central page holding all the modifier data, and that a central location would be easier to keep updated. But the formatting and table structure is already created on each archetype page, and it's probably easier just to update those numbers on each page. Use what's there, ya know?  

 

What do you think about the idea of keeping those collapsable tables open by default?

Edited September 18, 2022 by BlackSpectre

[Luminara]

23 minutes ago, BlackSpectre said:

Can anybody who has a tank with vengeance log in and give me its numbers?

 

The game only shows the heal for Vengeance, so that wouldn't do you any good.  Use City of Data.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.leadership.vengeance&at=tanker

 

For most powers, though, you can get the in-game numbers for any archetype without logging in on that specific archetype.  Type [Power Name] in the chat box and click it after you hit Enter, or right-click and select Info if you have the power in question, and just change the archetype in the info window (highlighted green in the game).

 

[BlackSpectre]

The Vengeance chart checked out. Thanks a bunch for the help! 

[Greycat]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:09 PM, Sovera said:

Tactics don't matter much (IMO). Everyone ought to be building for 95% against +3 anyway.

 

Nope. Can't make me. Rarely take Hasten, either, despite the apparent (at least in some quarters) "It's NEEEDED in EVERY build!" Nope.

 

And I rarely take Leadership in any form, unless I'm a MM. Maybe if I have an extra pick or two, or I'm working on a solidly team-centric build. I build my characters to be who they are, not what numbers are where on someone's spreadsheet.

[StrikerFox]

Reading this post made me realize how overpowered the Leadership pool is. Maybe it should be nerfed so everyone can only receive the buff once, even if multiple people have the toggles active. I mean how many "leaders" can be barking orders on a single team? 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

17 hours ago, Snarky said:

You now have the high ground.

 

I couldn't help myself.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Sir Myshkin
Edited out a comment I missed as already being clarified.

[Six-Six]

14 hours ago, Snarky said:

Now i want to run Rad/Dark Brute.   Need a great thematic name though.   And…err…i think i may have to six slot stamina

The wifi gods wouldn't let me play through the lag, so I was stuck in character creation. 

I present to you, oh Great Snark Man, End Game. Rad/Dark Brute.
I tried to work in your penchant for vampires and such. And he's awfully gaunt because... well, he's got a problem recovering.



I'd be very happy to send you the costume file. Haven't checked if the name was available or not.
That's it. Don't mind me. Back to your regular banter boys. 😃