Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #40: Wizards and Witches (Circle of Thorns, Cabal, Legacy Chain, and Mu)

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back for another weekly discussion. This week we pivot to looking into some magic based npc factions. Magic based factions have a wide variety of abilities to engage the players. 

 

How do you feel about the design of each of these NPC groups? Do they have engaging stories that you like to run through? Do they present a reasonable challenge for players (I know the spectral demons and ruin mages in a Posi 2 require some foresight for most pugs, and the end drain of the cabal in a Katie Hannon TF can be brutal). What do you like or dislike about these groups?

 

Are there any other magical groups that are interesting to you?

 

As always thanks.

[Greycat]

Pfft, I use the COT in a Posi to show how useful sleeps are... sure, they get woken up with an attack, but the -tohit patches and bubbles are gone...

 

COT - are interesting, sure, but I think could use a bit of revamping for people to *see* their storyline instead of just avoiding it because they don't want to rescue 18 hostages in the Orenbanga caves' nooks and crannies. I *half* suspect something was coming with the whole "emergence of Orenbanga into the hollows" (which... I'm not sure I'd have been fond of) - but there should, perhaps, be more sympathetic Circle you can work with, who want to curb the others whole... kidnapping and soul-snatching.  As a group you see through your entire career... there should be more to do with them and they should have more depth than they do now. (Heck, having *even more* to do 1-50 for Magic origin for them might be interesting.)

 

Cabal - I'm torn a bit. Pretty much just in Croatoa, and ... ok, storyline wise they've got some reasons for what they do, but .... they're kind of meh.  And annoying because they fly away at the drop of a pointy hat. (And those outfits ...) Plus, as far as open world mob spawns in Croatoa, they show an apparent "interest" in some male NPCs by their dialog that would have people screaming if the gender roles were reversed.

 

Legacy Chain - honestly... just forgettable. There's some design there, sure, they're sprinkled around here and there, but ... they might as well be Luddites. There's just not all that much interesting about them.

 

Mu - Bleh. OK, 1-50 for redside. Story intertwined with the COT, and Mu. Can anyone tell me what it is? Or are most people just going to remember the Mu are the "floating bondage boys?" There's potential in them, given their loyalties, that I just don't think is really taken advantage of. Honestly, I mostly remember them from the pure *annoyance* of having to face groups of them Redside at low level when you have no real chance of having anything slotted (or available) to deal with all the END drain from their attacks. 

 

As far as other magical groups... I'm going to say "magic related" here, too -

The fir Bolg and Tuatha - it's mentioned a time or two that some of the citizens have been converted to these two warring groups in easily missed dialog snatches. Having that emphasized would have been... interesting, I think.

 

Midnighters - other than Night Ward, you rarely really see them as "magic." More as librarians. Something to make use of that (which *is* done in various arcs, sure, but I mean more so) would be interesting. What right off hand, I don't know. One of the chances to create something origin-specific - from reactions to magic characters to having a Midnighter contact for magic arcs/one off missions that explore a bit more of the magic lore, that sort of thing.

 

Banished Pantheon - there's a lot of implied horror to them. In the *old* Dark Astoria, I had a character pretty much adopt the zone just because of the citizen-spirits - and who made it a point to try to stop the rituals that fed them to the BP gods. "New" DA should be a BP triumph - but it doesn't feel like it. Sure, they're out in force, they fight for Mot, etc, but ... it doesn't feel like it's anything major for them, to me, more like they're upleveled and just happen to be in the zone. I think a lot of that was just taken by the Talons and trying to shove *their* story in (because hey suddenly there's a link where there wasn't before, or wasn't obviously one, to this ... what's supposed to be tiny group of assassins.) They could be fleshed out. Deal with *their* gods - at least face bigger avatars than the "hit me for badge progress" masks at some point - heck, even do a "so you want to be a *real* villain?" redside where you could serve their ends. (I don't believe there's anything redside that gives the various powers from the WHeel of Destruction arc blueside.) They could be fleshed out and the horror aspect leaned on more, versus mostly just being "the guys who have masks and don't have underwear" before DA. (Also, I don't think it's ever explained why they're in Striga, past "it's in their level range.")

 

 

 

 

[Techwright]

24 minutes ago, Greycat said:

COT - there should be more to do with them and they should have more depth than they do now.

 

Cabal - .... they're kind of meh. 

 

Legacy Chain - honestly... just forgettable.

 

The fir Bolg and Tuatha - it's mentioned a time or two that some of the citizens have been converted to these two warring groups in easily missed dialog snatches. Having that emphasized would have been... interesting, I think.

 

Midnighters - other than Night Ward, you rarely really see them as "magic." More as librarians. Something to make use of that (which *is* done in various arcs, sure, but I mean more so) would be interesting. What right off hand, I don't know. One of the chances to create something origin-specific - from reactions to magic characters to having a Midnighter contact for magic arcs/one off missions that explore a bit more of the magic lore, that sort of thing.

 

 

CoT - i'm going to politely disagree and say we should have less of them.  Somewhere in the original game's existence they went from a group in a specific level range to a group that's just all over the place.  Not only do I think this watered them down into a generic magic group, I've grown to despise seeing them.  I do agree, even in a smaller profile, that their depth could be expanded upon more than just "we're here for your bodies".

 

Cabal - agreed.  Honestly, I'm not sure how any group in Croatoa could be expanded to believable functionality outside Croatoa.

 

Legacy Chain - who now?  😉

 

Fir Bolg & Tuatha - I never picked up on the idea of citizens being forceably converted into their numbers.  That's actually terrifying and as you say, an interesting direction not taken.

 

Midnighters - the differences between the members make them interesting, and all the current members (not Darren Wade) come off as somewhat classy.  I do think Montague gets overused, especially with the potential for so many unique characters under one roof. I do like him though. These other groups we've named are all cookie-cutters, defined only by their rank or specific power set.  Midnighters begin as interesting individuals that happen to have powersets.  I assume they have ranks though I don't recall discussion of them.  Midnighters also have the greatest potential out of all the magic groups for fresh stories.  I can imagine them tweaking the nose of Mender Silos once again, or maybe more, by opening additional time portals.  Imagine going into Paragon City's past:  Roaring 20s with Mayor Spanky, Brass Monday, Dec 7, 1941 fighting alongside Atlas against the 5th Column, the potential is boundless, even to the point of finally stirring the ire of Oroborous leading to outright conflict.

[cranebump]

Legacy Chain is so underutilized, considering their self-appointed mission. Of course, you pretty much destroy them in Lenard's arc, so there's little reason to see them after the mid-20s. I did construct an AE arc dealing with what happened after the group got crushed (Dark Legacy), but, in the end, no amount of story-telling can make up for how non-scary these guys are. They lack oomph, and tend to be forgettable. As a player in the magic game, I'd expect a bit more out of them. But they just don't stand out. As stated above, they might as well be Luddites.

Edited August 9, 2023 by cranebump

[Greycat]

44 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

CoT - i'm going to politely disagree and say we should have less of them.  Somewhere in the original game's existence they went from a group in a specific level range to a group that's just all over the place. 

 

 

... unless it's somewhere from issue 0-2, no they haven't. Having to hop onto the rooftops in KR to hunt them has been a thing since I started in issue 3, and they've been in missions up to 50.

[High_Beam]

First an foremost I agree with everything @Greycatposted in their first post.  The Legacy Chain are a wasted group in large part becuase they were supposed to be good guys vexing Villainous players.  If they had been given the level of attention with regards to complexity that the Circle has, they could be something.  But as enemies, meh, they were the magical Wyvern and stopped mattering after I took down the Sea Witch.  BP got all that DA-Mot material so they can eat it.

 

The Mu are interesting when you really dive into the Blood War regarding the Oranbegans and the Muvians back when Ermeeth and Hequat were pissing and moaning with each other.  We are talking real opportunities to broaden the mystical-occult aspects (including leveraging the Mot material since Teliekeiu (sp) is involved.  But the Mu as a group, meh, they are edge dressing.

 

But I love the Circle.  Oh I hate them, fighting them is a pain in the hinder at almost every level.  Ruin Mages, ToHit Debuff, hard locks, early and often made them a challenge.  To be honest I would intentionally soldier certain characters (primarily magic origins) through the Circle content because I got a real feel of accomplishment.  Later they are still pains with the Succubus and Death Mages.  As has already been said, some of the missions are brutally annoying because of dumb crap like find the bajillion books but the stories are really well written, some of the best of the Blue Side content.  They are a persistent enemy that engages in grand evil schemes from start to finish.  And again, so much potential for additional work (i.e the previously mentioned Oranbegan-Mu war).  

 

 

[Chance Jackson]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Banished Pantheon - there's a lot of implied horror to them. In the *old* Dark Astoria, I had a character pretty much adopt the zone just because of the citizen-spirits - and who made it a point to try to stop the rituals that fed them to the BP gods. "New" DA should be a BP triumph - but it doesn't feel like it. Sure, they're out in force, they fight for Mot, etc, but ... it doesn't feel like it's anything major for them, to me, more like they're upleveled and just happen to be in the zone. I think a lot of that was just taken by the Talons and trying to shove *their* story in (because hey suddenly there's a link where there wasn't before, or wasn't obviously one, to this ... what's supposed to be tiny group of assassins.) They could be fleshed out. Deal with *their* gods - at least face bigger avatars than the "hit me for badge progress" masks at some point - heck, even do a "so you want to be a *real* villain?" redside where you could serve their ends. (I don't believe there's anything redside that gives the various powers from the WHeel of Destruction arc blueside.) They could be fleshed out and the horror aspect leaned on more, versus mostly just being "the guys who have masks and don't have underwear" before DA. (Also, I don't think it's ever explained why they're in Striga, past "it's in their level range.")

 

There is a major cemetery in Striga so it makes sense that BP would grave dig there

[Greycat]

28 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

 

There is a major cemetery in Striga so it makes sense that BP would grave dig there

 

Eh, I don't know how major that is. They were all over DA because Mot.  Striga has... nothing much that should attract them.  They just feel like they were dumped there because "something has to give magic origin DO/SOs" back in the day.

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the design of each of these NPC groups?

 

CoT

I really like the ghosts in this group. It was a long time before I had enough time in battle to really get a good look at them get to enjoy the graphics.

The rest are pretty standard.

I'm not a fan of the:

 

Legacy

I haven't run up against these often, so I really can't give any input on this group.

 

Mu

I had to dig a bit for the correct wiki page for this group ( https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Arachnos/Mu_Mystics ) as the page is listed as Arachnos/Mu Mystics.

I fight this group from time to time, but nowhere near as often as the CoT. They seem more of a subgroup of the Arachnos when I run into them - that is to say, I see them mixed in with "normal" Arachnos .... mainly the spiderborgs to my recollection. 

Their costumes are pretty bland.

I guess my call on them is "they are just there".

 

 

8 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any other magical groups that are interesting to you?

 

Spectral Pirates!

I would love to see more of this mystic group in Hero side missions.

A task force with them would be interesting.

It looks like it would need to be a level 10-15 taskforce.

 

 

 

 

Rularuu

Do the Rurlaruu count as mystics?

I don't run into them too much as I don't play the end-game often.

I really enjoyed when they invaded at the beginning of Issue 2! I'll never forget that. It was awesome. (Why hasn't this come back?)

I mean the Shadow Shard has to be the most "Doctor Strange" of all the zones. 

Are they just extradimensional or are they mystical?

Is Mystical the same as extradimensional? (Then is the Winter Horde mystical? I'm leading toward  yes so...)

 

The Winter Horde

I wish there was more variance of appearance in this group.

I don't see why this group can't be expanded.

I'm fine with them just showing up for the Winter Event. I look forward to it every year.

 

Halloween Event enemies

Zombie Apocalypse

Trick or treating enemies

Ancient Vampires

Spectral Werewolves

Arisen Mummies

Crone Matriarchs

Hollow Reapers

Oh, yeah. Lot of good stuff here. Fun character designs and probably interesting powers both of which are often completely lost in the chaos of Motel 666.

 

Banished Pantheon

I really like the look of the characters in this group. The Totems especially.

I think they are fun to do battle with. 

 

Fir Bolg

I really like these especially since some of them don't become active and aren't targetable when they are in their fully planted form. This is a neat Idea.

The Halloween Event has become mostly Motel 666 farming, but when the Giant Pumpkin Head GMs used to be the Halloween event, they were a lot of fun fighting.

 

Red Caps

Who doesn't like fighting guys with red caps!

Those little guy that get thrown onto you and cling onto your neck and head are ingenious! Hats off to the DEVs on that one!

 

Tuatha de Dannan

Okay. Nothing Special.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by UltraAlt
forgot the Banished Pantheon!

[Snarky]

We need more options to emulate these costumes in game.  Including robes for men and translucent option 

[Clave Dark 5]

The Fir Bolg and Tuatha might be my favorite groups in the game because they don't make me feel like I['m fighting some doltish weird street gang, and because they just look cool.  They're also barely have any backstory  or current story at all to be annoyed by, but I'd like to see people try at least.

16 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

The Halloween Event has become mostly Motel 666 farming, but when the Giant Pumpkin Head GMs used to be the Halloween event, they were a lot of fun fighting.

I made a toon with lots of TP specifically GM hunt during the Halloween event last year (and will pull him back out this season too), so lemme tell ya, the pumpkin pie guy is still on the menu.  Lots.  Often.  Come the season, go to the Motel Hell, help out the MM leeches parked in the center of the parking lot spamming one power steal drops and XP from the rest of the group, and pretty soon you'll also be hopping around the map to have a slice of pie, guaranteed.  Even with those despicable parasites, I still find it a fun time.

[kelika2]

i would not complain at all if we just got a warehouse with some CoT stuff thrown in there and we became city of warehouses to never get a pancake room ever again

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

the pumpkin pie guy is still on the menu.  Lots.  Often. 

 

Yeah, but I liked it more when it was just them running around and small groups doorknocking all over the place.

 

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Come the season, go to the Motel Hell, help out the MM leeches parked in the center of the parking lot spamming one power steal drops and XP from the rest of the group, and pretty soon you'll also be hopping around the map to have a slice of pie, guaranteed.

 

Since I'm anti-farming I have bad-taste-in-my-mouth about Motel 666 especially when it turns not a bunch of characters that are obviously AFK as part of a league.

And, sure, I have been league teleported to the Great Pumpkin and Fatty. Just doesn't have the same feeling as tracking them down on the streets and fighting them.

I have enough spooky origin characters so that I can switch around once I get all the badges or max of 5 level increase.

 

I have friends that really like the Motel 666, but it really isn't so much fun more than getting to play my spooky characters trying to help force back the minions of Hell.... it would all stop if people stopped knocking on their doors and waking them up!

 

But the League thing happens on most invasion at this point, so it is what it is.

[High_Beam]

Halloween Event = Needenzebadgen

[Coyotedancer]

I don't care a thing about the magic types in this game.

'Hardly notice they're there, honestly...

 

 

...

 

 

*looks at her forum avatar*

*looks at her character list*

 

 

...

 

What? 😄

 

It's no secret who my favorites are, I guess. I've sort-of been all-in on playing an assortment of at least semi-sympathetic Oranbegans and their associates since the later years of the Live game. I concocted an entire post-Battalion "alternate future" around the temple complex in Primeva and what the Circle might evolve into once they solved their "gave up our bodies to keep the demons from having our souls"-issue. 

 

Given how tightly I've tied my gang into the CoT as they exist at this point in game canon, though, I have to admit some wariness about any major changes The Powers That Be intend to make with them.

 

Raising part of the city under Paragon? Have at it! That could be good fun and wouldn't mess with Primeva. I wouldn't have to do a lot of tinkering with my crew to work around it. 

 

Make some huge cultural change in them, or start doing what members of the Ars Magica mailing list used to call "Nailing down every chamber pot in Mythic Europe"? (That is to say, defining every detail of the canon world so completely that there was very little room left for individual players or GMs to spin off in directions of their own without contradicting Holy and Untouchable Established Lore-) That could get annoying pretty quickly... Even though I'm rarely an active roleplayer these days, I'd really prefer not to have to rewrite the interconnected histories of basically every character I have on Everlasting.

 

As for the rest? I have much less of a stake in them. They're all in punching-bag territory, so anything new they get may or may not even be something that I realize IS new, with the possible exception of those places where Mu history intersects with the Oranbegans.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I try not to ever pick any magic opponents for paper/radio missions simply because I dislike getting the cave missions.  I've suggested this before, but I wouldn't mind if this were totally randomized.

[mechahamham]

I love the Croatoa groups and the story, but it just kinda peters out rather than coming to any kind of satisfying conclusion.

 

Spoiler

You get the 'well, the Redcaps were annihilated' at the end of Buck Salinger's arc, and then you get Katie's TF, which does not deal with long-term goals of either the Cabal or the Redcaps, beyond the Redcaps saying 'Cabal must suffer forever!'.

 

There is a TON that can be done with the Seelie fae vs. Unseelie fae vs. Cabal/Coven angle that's just... not. Once you're out of Croatoa, the Redcaps and Tuatha only show up in the throwaways for Holiday events. Cabal and Fir Bolg just straight up disappear. I'd like to see the consequences of Katie Hannon getting married, or more details on how the Witches' magic works. Katie is mentioned a couple times as being the Cabal's 'last hope'. WHY is she the last hope? Is she the only witch who can still bear children? What's stopping the younger witches in the Cabal from having families?

 

Additionally there are a few DE trees in Croatoa. Are those there on purpose or were they just misplaced by... was it Archon Voss who populated that zone? It seems like I remember War Witch saying he did. It'd be neat to see an arc that was fae vs. Hamidon themed.

 

This is a personal thing, but I am SICK TO DEATH of Praetorian content. Please don't tie the Croatoa stuff to Praetoria in any way. I kinda hate that the Midnighters got tied to Night Ward. That said, the Drudges are seriously cool. I'd like to see non-Praetorian-centric Drudges show up in other arcs.

[A Cat]

12 minutes ago, mechahamham said:

This is a personal thing, but I am SICK TO DEATH of Praetorian content.

We still have to go back and retake Praetoria from Hami though. That seems to be the main loose end, other than the New Praetorian story arc, which is in primal anyway. Personally I'm a Praetorian fan. But I do see what you mean. 

[Oubliette_Red]

CoT - I want the Mage Boss's headwear and belts.

 

That is all.

[Gorgar]

I love to beat up wizards, and Croatoa is pretty much my favorite zone.  Talos for utility, Croatoa for the mobs.

 

CoT are just so smug that it's really satisfying punching them, and my SG is full of witches that think CoT use magic wrong and must be stopped.

 

Almost every character of mine is magic origin, and Halloween is my favorite event.  I think I was around for the first one, and Eochai impressed the hell out of me.