Why was Statesman killed off again?

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

Been back for awhile now but keep forgetting to actually get on and ask the question... Searches don't really answer the question. I feel the LRSF just isn't the same.... The prestige of taking down the original FP 8 vs. 8 pre-incarn (unless you want to count Shivans lol) still holds high for me...

 

 However, I am curious as to why exactly Statesman was essentially dropped? Was it some sort of behind the scene political thing between the devs? Was it because someone was leaving and taking their brand with them? It's just such an odd thing to have him gone in the game when you had so much based around him.... I mean...the Well of Furies that essentially defined the CoH and the CoV of the game had 2 names come from it... 

 

 Either way, I have always wondered if this was what they really wanted to do in the game. I read the feedback from Matt Miller interviews and even his answers seem to be empty and he stayed on the subject of "moving on" from the death...instead of what drove the reason.

[MoonSheep]

[GM Crumpet]

1 hour ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said:

Been back for awhile now but keep forgetting to actually get on and ask the question... Searches don't really answer the question. I feel the LRSF just isn't the same.... The prestige of taking down the original FP 8 vs. 8 pre-incarn (unless you want to count Shivans lol) still holds high for me...

 

 However, I am curious as to why exactly Statesman was essentially dropped? Was it some sort of behind the scene political thing between the devs? Was it because someone was leaving and taking their brand with them? It's just such an odd thing to have him gone in the game when you had so much based around him.... I mean...the Well of Furies that essentially defined the CoH and the CoV of the game had 2 names come from it... 

 

 Either way, I have always wondered if this was what they really wanted to do in the game. I read the feedback from Matt Miller interviews and even his answers seem to be empty and he stayed on the subject of "moving on" from the death...instead of what drove the reason.

Nobody knows for sure, and those who know aren't talking

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said:

However, I am curious as to why exactly Statesman was essentially dropped?

 

The Statesman was Jack's character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Emmert

 

The Stateman got the nix after Jack left CoH development to try to start up Marvel Online - which fell through, and the turned into Champions Online (by buying the rights to The Champions RPG and then replacing one of the most balanced RPG rulesets in history with his game mechanics from the failed Marvel Online project - basically, throwing out the great game system and keeping the "campy" signature character which were pretty much self-game-referential jokes) ...which didn't do so hot, but got him in the door on DC Universe Online (and, other online game projects).

 

Basically, "The Stateman" was no longer the "big man" behind Paragon City.

 

https://www.engadget.com/2012-01-23-matt-miller-answers-our-questions-about-the-death-of-statesman-i.html

 

"Unpopularity Contest

The death of Statesman is certainly popular among some segments of the CoH/V community, both due to dislike of the character and his previous role as forum name for previous CoH/V lead developer Jack Emmert. I’ve never got the hate for Emmert, especially the line of thought that CoH/V succeeded in spite of him, thus robbing him of any credit for the title he led but simultaneously shouldering him with all blame for any of its problems." - https://worldclassvillains.com/2012/01/12/city-of-heroes-villains-the-killing-of-statesman-and-where-we-go-from-here/

 

 

 

[Darmian]

I bemoan the fact that there's no real interaction with Statesman prior to the events in "Who Will Die?" I'd love it if the OG Statesman TF was still possible to do with him standing in IP, and only getting phased out/replaced by Ms Liberty AFTER you've done "Who Will Die?". Of course even if that were possible the LRSF would need to be tweaked as well. Fortunately for us the LRSF DOES exist again via Ouro. And oh yeah, that version can be tough.

 

Hell, even an arc with a flashback scene involving him would help. 

[Healix]

I don't care who 'played' Statesman. He was (and always will be)  Paragon's symbolic Hero-of-Heroes to me.  I thought it was one of the most senseless and illogical things ever done in the game. Any base I ever created on the blue side always had a special area to honor him...a glass case holding his mask, usually. People have made fun of me for missing him but I don't care.

 

[cranebump]

An unceremonious curbstomp by a second-rate semi-vill on his way to temporary Godhood, delivered well before the finale of an overall poorly executed (considering its repercussions) arc. If you want to kill the guy, have him sacrifice himself in the final battle or something. 

 

I mean, really...Darrin Wade?

[UltraAlt]

 

My characters never knew the Statesman.

He never helped out on any adventures. They never ran into him when fighting crime. They never saw him flying in the skies above Paragon City.

He never showed up to help when Giant Monsters showed up to rampage THE CITY.

Heck, he never showed up during any Rikti raid when they were bombing sections of Paragon City.

 

I think a couple of my characters might have run into him in Recluse's Victory, but, like the rest of the Freedom Phalanx, were too busy doing their cliquey thing to bother talking to my characters regardless of how much we helped them against the forces of Lord Recluse ... or maybe we beatdown the Statesman with the help of Lord Recluse. There was a lot of missing time and dimensional shenanigans going on but I think it might have all just been an illusion ... a hologram ... created by Dr Aeon.

 

Or was the Statesman just a Nemesis plot all along?

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by UltraAlt

[Enchantica]

Statesman Is my fav N.P.C in CoH.  He is actually able to pull off a "Superman" Character without being just a shadow of "Superman" He maintained a feeling and spirit that still carries on.

I noticed no one has stepped in to replace him because he can never be replaced, that's why his presence will always be felt. I don't know why he was "killed off"

No one can fill that vacuum. Maybe Ghost Widow will rebel turn hero and strut her stuff all across Atlas Park.........HUBBA HUBBA! lol 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Enchantica
extra" and" was not needed

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said:

 It's just such an odd thing to have him gone in the game when you had so much based around him....

 

*Did* we though?

 

I mean, early on, running 1-50 you didn't have any interaction with him 'til you rescued him from the Praetorians in the hero's hero arc. He was a name, sure, but he was about as involved with you as Talos is. He was basically lore, mentioned in a few places but never seen. Sister Psyche getitng killed off had more of an impact (... granted, in part because of the "Really? You couldn't find another way?" of how it was done.) At least you'd seen and interacted with her.

 

I mean, *VEATs* had more interaction with Statesman (in the getting-punched-in-the-face variety, granted) than heroes did for quite a while.

 

Honestly, rescuing him and the Who Will Die arc's ending, would have had more impact if he were more than a COH History quiz question. Have him show up, "Oh, I hear we have a new hero!" in the tutorial. At least have to give him some information if not fight with him or do *something* for him partway through the game. Otherwise... yeah, he just existed as lore comments, pretty much, 'til the end of *one* arc for a long time.

[Darmian]

If anyone has read the two COH novels, particularly the first one, Statesman is actually a pretty good character. It's a shame that portrayal wasn't ported into the game. (The comics are a mixed bag of "the comic writers weren't given any notes" or "the comic writers didn't care" to "no one sense checked this at all". All of those suppositions may be incorrect, but whatever, the portrayal is erratic and annoying.)

[Snarky]

Why Stateman/Jack motivated the population?  Many reasons.  But he was someone everyone wanted to talk to...

 

[A Cat]

5 hours ago, Healix said:

I don't care who 'played' Statesman. He was (and always will be)  Paragon's symbolic Hero-of-Heroes to me.  I thought it was one of the most senseless and illogical things ever done in the game. Any base I ever created on the blue side always had a special area to honor him...a glass case holding his mask, usually. People have made fun of me for missing him but I don't care.

 

I didn't feel as strongly about it but I agree he was iconic and it was a waste to kill him off, especially due to...

 

5 hours ago, cranebump said:

An unceremonious curbstomp by a second-rate semi-vill on his way to temporary Godhood, delivered well before the finale of an overall poorly executed (considering its repercussions) arc. If you want to kill the guy, have him sacrifice himself in the final battle or something. 

 

I mean, really...Darrin Wade?

...This. Darrin Wade is some literally who. 

[TheZag]

My understanding was that Statesman needed to die in order for the players to progress.  If the next big threat arrived,  Statesman would be expected to deal with it instead of the players.  I would have preferred for him to remain alive though.  There are several ways to exclude a character without having them killed.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

5 hours ago, Enchantica said:

Maybe Ghost Widow will rebel

Well, Ghost Widow isn't inherently evil, she's just bound to Recluse. If you haven't played her full patron arc, it's really worth the play.

[jprewitt73]

34 minutes ago, A Cat said:

I didn't feel as strongly about it but I agree he was iconic and it was a waste to kill him off, especially due to...

 

...This. Darrin Wade is some literally who. 

Yeah, his death was such a disappointment. I figured if anyone took him out it would be Recluse. 

[tidge]

I had a very narrow gripe about Statesman from launch: IIRC Statesman was an Invulnerability Tanker, per the game materials. My gripe is that those of who played Invulnerability Tanks couldn't do the things that Statesman could do... Like move when powers were toggled on.

[SeraphimKensai]

34 minutes ago, tidge said:

I had a very narrow gripe about Statesman from launch: IIRC Statesman was an Invulnerability Tanker, per the game materials. My gripe is that those of who played Invulnerability Tanks couldn't do the things that Statesman could do... Like move when powers were toggled on.

Oh the days of Unyielding rooting you in place, forcing all of us early Invuln tanks to use teleport, or detoggle our mez protection to run around.

 

But from my understanding Jack wasn't exactly well liked by the rest of the Development team, if I remember correctly I think someone made mention of him being a micro manager.

 

That said when Striga Isle was introduced he did play his signature Statesman toon on a Hess TF on Guardian back in the day. People were flooding the zone to try and see him and get a screenshot.

[Scarlet Shocker]

In a way I can understand the creative urge to remove Statesman as the big hero, to make the others stand up and be counted without their great leader. That could have been a great story but was handled poorly.

 

What was utterly reprehensible was killing off Sister Psyche - there was no reason behind it, and so poorly executed (pun intended) that it defies logic. It was as though the Devs sat down around a table and said "ok the fans know we're gonna kill of Statesman and they mostly hate him anyhow, so let's throw them through a loop and kill somebody they like off too"

 

Even at a basic level, we already knew Sister P could mind-ride - she'd done it with Aurora for some years I believe, so why she couldn't do that again is very unclear.

 

As Ambassador KuiRehkt might put it: Plot:atrocious, writing: shoddy, outcome: unnecessary, conclusion: stupid

 

Statesman did not have to die, it was a political decision but perhaps it was guided by the notion that had he remained alive the game might have degraded into the Statesman vs Himself show with Emperor Cole about to loom over the horizon as Tyrant in Going Rogue. Hard to think they could have done with Praetoria what they wanted to do if somebody approaching Coles equal in raw power remained on the scene.

[ZemX]

They killed Statesman again?!

 

Okay, a joke... but half serious here.  Killing off major characters seems to be just a thing comics do, innit?   Might be more noteworthy in this genre that they haven't yet brought him back to life than that they killed him in the first place.

[KC4800]

We may have lost Statesman, but there's still a Phrendon Largo on every server, and I take solace in that. (Even though he lost his sidekick Praxitas long ago)

[Digirium]

I played during the live years and my sentiment about JE was that he was anti-player and had fixed notions nobody could ever change, not the players or development team. Everything was always a massive fight trying to make JE see sense. For example like his wanting to hide all the knowledge about power numbers from players! I think the reason Statesman was killed off was when he left it gave the development team an opportunity and the satisfaction to take their vengeance for themselves and the players caught up in those dumb arguments with JE both internally and externally.

[Skyhawke]

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

My understanding was that Statesman needed to die in order for the players to progress.  If the next big threat arrived,  Statesman would be expected to deal with it instead of the players.  I would have preferred for him to remain alive though.  There are several ways to exclude a character without having them killed.

 

 

Sounds about right. As others have said, it would've carried more weight if he was an actual part of the game. As you go along, you interact and do missions for the other big heroes, but Statesman is just this legend that everyone talks about, but doesn't seem to do diddly squat. Had he been a part of our experience up until he dies (and agreed...$@$@ing Darrin Wade?!?!?!?!), it would've hit hard. As is, it's a "Yes, very sad....Anyway..." moment. 

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Wade NOT be in Shark's? I thought I read somewhere a while back that Recluse killed him or something after the death of Statesman....that even Recluse seemed bothered by his death and went after him. Either way, I feel Wade is seriously misplaced as his missions haven't changed and his story line has remained "pre-state". I would have thought they would move him to a higher zone with a "post-state" presence.... It's been a while since I read up on this but I swear he should be dead at the hands of Recluse after all was said and done...

[FupDup]

38 minutes ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Wade NOT be in Shark's? I thought I read somewhere a while back that Recluse killed him or something after the death of Statesman....that even Recluse seemed bothered by his death and went after him. Either way, I feel Wade is seriously misplaced as his missions haven't changed and his story line has remained "pre-state". I would have thought they would move him to a higher zone with a "post-state" presence.... It's been a while since I read up on this but I swear he should be dead at the hands of Recluse after all was said and done...

Wade was captured by Vanguard/Lady Grey at the end of Who Will Die and is having his brain picked apart for any and all info that could be used against Rularuu. I don't think anything else happened to him after that point.