OldSchool SC Fight Club Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 Been back for awhile now but keep forgetting to actually get on and ask the question... Searches don't really answer the question. I feel the LRSF just isn't the same.... The prestige of taking down the original FP 8 vs. 8 pre-incarn (unless you want to count Shivans lol) still holds high for me... However, I am curious as to why exactly Statesman was essentially dropped? Was it some sort of behind the scene political thing between the devs? Was it because someone was leaving and taking their brand with them? It's just such an odd thing to have him gone in the game when you had so much based around him.... I mean...the Well of Furies that essentially defined the CoH and the CoV of the game had 2 names come from it... Either way, I have always wondered if this was what they really wanted to do in the game. I read the feedback from Matt Miller interviews and even his answers seem to be empty and he stayed on the subject of "moving on" from the death...instead of what drove the reason.
MoonSheep Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 3 1 If you're not dying you're not living
Game Master GM Crumpet Posted November 16, 2023 Game Master Posted November 16, 2023 1 hour ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said: Been back for awhile now but keep forgetting to actually get on and ask the question... Searches don't really answer the question. I feel the LRSF just isn't the same.... The prestige of taking down the original FP 8 vs. 8 pre-incarn (unless you want to count Shivans lol) still holds high for me... However, I am curious as to why exactly Statesman was essentially dropped? Was it some sort of behind the scene political thing between the devs? Was it because someone was leaving and taking their brand with them? It's just such an odd thing to have him gone in the game when you had so much based around him.... I mean...the Well of Furies that essentially defined the CoH and the CoV of the game had 2 names come from it... Either way, I have always wondered if this was what they really wanted to do in the game. I read the feedback from Matt Miller interviews and even his answers seem to be empty and he stayed on the subject of "moving on" from the death...instead of what drove the reason. Nobody knows for sure, and those who know aren't talking 3
UltraAlt Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 1 hour ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said: However, I am curious as to why exactly Statesman was essentially dropped? The Statesman was Jack's character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Emmert The Stateman got the nix after Jack left CoH development to try to start up Marvel Online - which fell through, and the turned into Champions Online (by buying the rights to The Champions RPG and then replacing one of the most balanced RPG rulesets in history with his game mechanics from the failed Marvel Online project - basically, throwing out the great game system and keeping the "campy" signature character which were pretty much self-game-referential jokes) ...which didn't do so hot, but got him in the door on DC Universe Online (and, other online game projects). Basically, "The Stateman" was no longer the "big man" behind Paragon City. https://www.engadget.com/2012-01-23-matt-miller-answers-our-questions-about-the-death-of-statesman-i.html "Unpopularity Contest The death of Statesman is certainly popular among some segments of the CoH/V community, both due to dislike of the character and his previous role as forum name for previous CoH/V lead developer Jack Emmert. I’ve never got the hate for Emmert, especially the line of thought that CoH/V succeeded in spite of him, thus robbing him of any credit for the title he led but simultaneously shouldering him with all blame for any of its problems." - https://worldclassvillains.com/2012/01/12/city-of-heroes-villains-the-killing-of-statesman-and-where-we-go-from-here/ 2 If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they may be on ignore. (It seems I'm involved with so much at this point that I may not be able to easily retrieve access to all the notifications) Some players know that I have them on ignore and are likely to make posts knowing that is the case. But the fact that I have them on ignore won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it. There is a group that have banded together to target forum posters they don't like. They think that this behavior is acceptable. Ignore (in the forums) and /ignore (in-game) are tools to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using them.
Darmian Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 I bemoan the fact that there's no real interaction with Statesman prior to the events in "Who Will Die?" I'd love it if the OG Statesman TF was still possible to do with him standing in IP, and only getting phased out/replaced by Ms Liberty AFTER you've done "Who Will Die?". Of course even if that were possible the LRSF would need to be tweaked as well. Fortunately for us the LRSF DOES exist again via Ouro. And oh yeah, that version can be tough. Hell, even an arc with a flashback scene involving him would help. 3 2 AE SFMA Arcs: The Meteors (Arc id 42079) | Dark Deeds in Galaxy City: Part One. (Arc id 26756) X | Dark Deeds in Galaxy City: Part Two. (Arc id 26952) | Dark Deeds in Galaxy City: Part Three. (Arc id 27233) Darker Deeds: Part One (Arc id 28374) | Darker Deeds: Part Two. (Arc id 28536) | Darker Deeds: Part Three. (Arc id 29252) | Darkest Before Dawn: Part One (Arc id 29891) | Darkest Before Dawn: Part Two (Arc id 30210) | Darkest Before Dawn: Part Three (Arc id 30560) | Bridge of Forever ( Arc id 36642) | The Cassini Division (Arc id 37104) X | The House of Gaunt Saints (Arc id 37489) X | The Spark of the Blind (Arc id 40403) | Damnatio Memoriae (Arc id 41140) X | The Eve of War (Arc id 41583) X | Spirals: Part One. (Arc id 55109) | Spirals: Part Two. (Arc id 55358) | Spirals: Part Three. (Arc id 57197) I Sing of Arms and the Man (Arc id 42617) | Three Sisters (Arc id 43013) (Pre War Praetorian Loyalist. Pre War Praetorian Resistance. Pre ITF Cimerora. Post ITF Cimerora. X = Dev Choice/Hall of Fame )
Healix Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 I don't care who 'played' Statesman. He was (and always will be) Paragon's symbolic Hero-of-Heroes to me. I thought it was one of the most senseless and illogical things ever done in the game. Any base I ever created on the blue side always had a special area to honor him...a glass case holding his mask, usually. People have made fun of me for missing him but I don't care. 5 9 Forever grateful to be back in my city!
cranebump Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 An unceremonious curbstomp by a second-rate semi-vill on his way to temporary Godhood, delivered well before the finale of an overall poorly executed (considering its repercussions) arc. If you want to kill the guy, have him sacrifice himself in the final battle or something. I mean, really...Darrin Wade? 6 I have done a TON of AE work, both long form and single arc. Just search the AE mish list for my sig @cranebump. For more information on my stories, head to the AE forum sub-heading and look for “Crane’s World.” Support your AE authors! We ARE the new content.
UltraAlt Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) My characters never knew the Statesman. He never helped out on any adventures. They never ran into him when fighting crime. They never saw him flying in the skies above Paragon City. He never showed up to help when Giant Monsters showed up to rampage THE CITY. Heck, he never showed up during any Rikti raid when they were bombing sections of Paragon City. I think a couple of my characters might have run into him in Recluse's Victory, but, like the rest of the Freedom Phalanx, were too busy doing their cliquey thing to bother talking to my characters regardless of how much we helped them against the forces of Lord Recluse ... or maybe we beatdown the Statesman with the help of Lord Recluse. There was a lot of missing time and dimensional shenanigans going on but I think it might have all just been an illusion ... a hologram ... created by Dr Aeon. Or was the Statesman just a Nemesis plot all along? Edited November 16, 2023 by UltraAlt 3 1 If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they may be on ignore. (It seems I'm involved with so much at this point that I may not be able to easily retrieve access to all the notifications) Some players know that I have them on ignore and are likely to make posts knowing that is the case. But the fact that I have them on ignore won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it. There is a group that have banded together to target forum posters they don't like. They think that this behavior is acceptable. Ignore (in the forums) and /ignore (in-game) are tools to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using them.
Enchantica Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) Statesman Is my fav N.P.C in CoH. He is actually able to pull off a "Superman" Character without being just a shadow of "Superman" He maintained a feeling and spirit that still carries on. I noticed no one has stepped in to replace him because he can never be replaced, that's why his presence will always be felt. I don't know why he was "killed off" No one can fill that vacuum. Maybe Ghost Widow will rebel turn hero and strut her stuff all across Atlas Park.........HUBBA HUBBA! lol Edited November 16, 2023 by Enchantica extra" and" was not needed 1
Greycat Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 7 hours ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said: It's just such an odd thing to have him gone in the game when you had so much based around him.... *Did* we though? I mean, early on, running 1-50 you didn't have any interaction with him 'til you rescued him from the Praetorians in the hero's hero arc. He was a name, sure, but he was about as involved with you as Talos is. He was basically lore, mentioned in a few places but never seen. Sister Psyche getitng killed off had more of an impact (... granted, in part because of the "Really? You couldn't find another way?" of how it was done.) At least you'd seen and interacted with her. I mean, *VEATs* had more interaction with Statesman (in the getting-punched-in-the-face variety, granted) than heroes did for quite a while. Honestly, rescuing him and the Who Will Die arc's ending, would have had more impact if he were more than a COH History quiz question. Have him show up, "Oh, I hear we have a new hero!" in the tutorial. At least have to give him some information if not fight with him or do *something* for him partway through the game. Otherwise... yeah, he just existed as lore comments, pretty much, 'til the end of *one* arc for a long time. 3 Kheldian Lore and Backstory Guide 2.0: HC edition Out to EAT : A look at Epic ATs - what is, could have been, and never was Want 20 merits? Got a couple of minutes? Mini guide to the Combat Attributes window
Darmian Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 If anyone has read the two COH novels, particularly the first one, Statesman is actually a pretty good character. It's a shame that portrayal wasn't ported into the game. (The comics are a mixed bag of "the comic writers weren't given any notes" or "the comic writers didn't care" to "no one sense checked this at all". All of those suppositions may be incorrect, but whatever, the portrayal is erratic and annoying.) AE SFMA Arcs: The Meteors (Arc id 42079) | Dark Deeds in Galaxy City: Part One. (Arc id 26756) X | Dark Deeds in Galaxy City: Part Two. (Arc id 26952) | Dark Deeds in Galaxy City: Part Three. (Arc id 27233) Darker Deeds: Part One (Arc id 28374) | Darker Deeds: Part Two. (Arc id 28536) | Darker Deeds: Part Three. (Arc id 29252) | Darkest Before Dawn: Part One (Arc id 29891) | Darkest Before Dawn: Part Two (Arc id 30210) | Darkest Before Dawn: Part Three (Arc id 30560) | Bridge of Forever ( Arc id 36642) | The Cassini Division (Arc id 37104) X | The House of Gaunt Saints (Arc id 37489) X | The Spark of the Blind (Arc id 40403) | Damnatio Memoriae (Arc id 41140) X | The Eve of War (Arc id 41583) X | Spirals: Part One. (Arc id 55109) | Spirals: Part Two. (Arc id 55358) | Spirals: Part Three. (Arc id 57197) I Sing of Arms and the Man (Arc id 42617) | Three Sisters (Arc id 43013) (Pre War Praetorian Loyalist. Pre War Praetorian Resistance. Pre ITF Cimerora. Post ITF Cimerora. X = Dev Choice/Hall of Fame )
Snarky Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 Why Stateman/Jack motivated the population? Many reasons. But he was someone everyone wanted to talk to... 1 1
A Cat Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 5 hours ago, Healix said: I don't care who 'played' Statesman. He was (and always will be) Paragon's symbolic Hero-of-Heroes to me. I thought it was one of the most senseless and illogical things ever done in the game. Any base I ever created on the blue side always had a special area to honor him...a glass case holding his mask, usually. People have made fun of me for missing him but I don't care. I didn't feel as strongly about it but I agree he was iconic and it was a waste to kill him off, especially due to... 5 hours ago, cranebump said: An unceremonious curbstomp by a second-rate semi-vill on his way to temporary Godhood, delivered well before the finale of an overall poorly executed (considering its repercussions) arc. If you want to kill the guy, have him sacrifice himself in the final battle or something. I mean, really...Darrin Wade? ...This. Darrin Wade is some literally who. 1
TheZag Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 My understanding was that Statesman needed to die in order for the players to progress. If the next big threat arrived, Statesman would be expected to deal with it instead of the players. I would have preferred for him to remain alive though. There are several ways to exclude a character without having them killed. 2
SeraphimKensai Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 5 hours ago, Enchantica said: Maybe Ghost Widow will rebel Well, Ghost Widow isn't inherently evil, she's just bound to Recluse. If you haven't played her full patron arc, it's really worth the play. 2
jprewitt73 Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 34 minutes ago, A Cat said: I didn't feel as strongly about it but I agree he was iconic and it was a waste to kill him off, especially due to... ...This. Darrin Wade is some literally who. Yeah, his death was such a disappointment. I figured if anyone took him out it would be Recluse.
tidge Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 I had a very narrow gripe about Statesman from launch: IIRC Statesman was an Invulnerability Tanker, per the game materials. My gripe is that those of who played Invulnerability Tanks couldn't do the things that Statesman could do... Like move when powers were toggled on. 1
SeraphimKensai Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 34 minutes ago, tidge said: I had a very narrow gripe about Statesman from launch: IIRC Statesman was an Invulnerability Tanker, per the game materials. My gripe is that those of who played Invulnerability Tanks couldn't do the things that Statesman could do... Like move when powers were toggled on. Oh the days of Unyielding rooting you in place, forcing all of us early Invuln tanks to use teleport, or detoggle our mez protection to run around. But from my understanding Jack wasn't exactly well liked by the rest of the Development team, if I remember correctly I think someone made mention of him being a micro manager. That said when Striga Isle was introduced he did play his signature Statesman toon on a Hess TF on Guardian back in the day. People were flooding the zone to try and see him and get a screenshot. 2
Scarlet Shocker Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 In a way I can understand the creative urge to remove Statesman as the big hero, to make the others stand up and be counted without their great leader. That could have been a great story but was handled poorly. What was utterly reprehensible was killing off Sister Psyche - there was no reason behind it, and so poorly executed (pun intended) that it defies logic. It was as though the Devs sat down around a table and said "ok the fans know we're gonna kill of Statesman and they mostly hate him anyhow, so let's throw them through a loop and kill somebody they like off too" Even at a basic level, we already knew Sister P could mind-ride - she'd done it with Aurora for some years I believe, so why she couldn't do that again is very unclear. As Ambassador KuiRehkt might put it: Plot:atrocious, writing: shoddy, outcome: unnecessary, conclusion: stupid Statesman did not have to die, it was a political decision but perhaps it was guided by the notion that had he remained alive the game might have degraded into the Statesman vs Himself show with Emperor Cole about to loom over the horizon as Tyrant in Going Rogue. Hard to think they could have done with Praetoria what they wanted to do if somebody approaching Coles equal in raw power remained on the scene. 2 There's a fine line between a numerator and a denominator but only a fraction of people understand that.
ZemX Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 They killed Statesman again?! Okay, a joke... but half serious here. Killing off major characters seems to be just a thing comics do, innit? Might be more noteworthy in this genre that they haven't yet brought him back to life than that they killed him in the first place. 2
KC4800 Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 We may have lost Statesman, but there's still a Phrendon Largo on every server, and I take solace in that. (Even though he lost his sidekick Praxitas long ago) Victory: reserved for future use Indom: Schtick, Pummel Pete, Plymouth, Pilkington Reunion: Ghost Legacy, 7s7e7v7e7n7, Mind Funk, Bluto Excelsior: Phrendon Largo, Fred Bumbler, John van der Waals,Allamedia Jones, Tzapt, Sn1pe Torchbearer: Phrendon Largo, Kenny Letter, Bewm, La Merle, Enflambe', Rock Largo, Bulk of the Weather, Retired Phrendon Everlasting: Phrendon Largo, Krown, Buzz Words, Bicycle Repairman, Dee Fender, Carmela Soprano, Radmental Boy, Beet Salad, Sporanghi,Sue Ahn Cuddy, Fukushima Technician, Snow Globe Girl, Thug Therapist, Apple Brown Betty
Digirium Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 I played during the live years and my sentiment about JE was that he was anti-player and had fixed notions nobody could ever change, not the players or development team. Everything was always a massive fight trying to make JE see sense. For example like his wanting to hide all the knowledge about power numbers from players! I think the reason Statesman was killed off was when he left it gave the development team an opportunity and the satisfaction to take their vengeance for themselves and the players caught up in those dumb arguments with JE both internally and externally. 2
Skyhawke Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 2 hours ago, TheZag said: My understanding was that Statesman needed to die in order for the players to progress. If the next big threat arrived, Statesman would be expected to deal with it instead of the players. I would have preferred for him to remain alive though. There are several ways to exclude a character without having them killed. Sounds about right. As others have said, it would've carried more weight if he was an actual part of the game. As you go along, you interact and do missions for the other big heroes, but Statesman is just this legend that everyone talks about, but doesn't seem to do diddly squat. Had he been a part of our experience up until he dies (and agreed...$@$@ing Darrin Wade?!?!?!?!), it would've hit hard. As is, it's a "Yes, very sad....Anyway..." moment. Sky-Hawke: Rad/WP Brute Alts galore. So...soooo many alts. Originally Pinnacle Server, then Indomitable and now Excelsior
OldSchool SC Fight Club Posted November 16, 2023 Author Posted November 16, 2023 Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Wade NOT be in Shark's? I thought I read somewhere a while back that Recluse killed him or something after the death of Statesman....that even Recluse seemed bothered by his death and went after him. Either way, I feel Wade is seriously misplaced as his missions haven't changed and his story line has remained "pre-state". I would have thought they would move him to a higher zone with a "post-state" presence.... It's been a while since I read up on this but I swear he should be dead at the hands of Recluse after all was said and done...
FupDup Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 38 minutes ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't Wade NOT be in Shark's? I thought I read somewhere a while back that Recluse killed him or something after the death of Statesman....that even Recluse seemed bothered by his death and went after him. Either way, I feel Wade is seriously misplaced as his missions haven't changed and his story line has remained "pre-state". I would have thought they would move him to a higher zone with a "post-state" presence.... It's been a while since I read up on this but I swear he should be dead at the hands of Recluse after all was said and done... Wade was captured by Vanguard/Lady Grey at the end of Who Will Die and is having his brain picked apart for any and all info that could be used against Rularuu. I don't think anything else happened to him after that point. 1 .
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