Superman Tankers are boring.... but..... intentionally handicapping yourself is hard.....

[PancakeGnome]

I keep running into this problem with characters where I want to play something interesting / challenging / dynamic.... but then end up thinking about high end play and going against +4 +8 stuff, and it being just a game mechanic of alpha strikes and needing to survive heavy damage.

So it's either "play something that relies on someone ELSE being the superman tank that can't die...... or be it yourself" ? 

And, sure, there are other builds that you can get close to unkillable too. Doesn't have to be a tank, just they are the easiest to do with massive damage. Just at the end of the day the math all ends up being the same on builds , high defense to mitigate whatever is incoming.... and then dish out the DPS.....

Single target characters are pointless, because in normal play bosses just die as a side effect of all the area damage being thrown around. 

I don't know, I guess I'm struggling with so many different characters because it's hard to find one that strikes a balance between fun and challenging to play, without feeling dependent on those god-characters or becoming one yourself. 

Because, at least for me, playing a god character can be kind of boring. I get to a level where I know I'm not in any real danger most of the time... and it just becomes a frenzy of how fast I can jump from group to group stomping them......

[DougGraves]

I just turn off XP at level 19 when the game is still fun and challenging.

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I just turn off XP at level 19 when the game is still fun and challenging.

 

Yeah, I've got any number of characters "stuck" from the late teens to the mid(is) twenties because (at least for me)  that's the sweet spot for soloing,
 

[Yomo Kimyata]

36 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

So it's either "play something that relies on someone ELSE being the superman tank that can't die...... or be it yourself" ? 

 

You've won the game as Superman.  The question is do you want to continue to win the game as Superman or try to win it as, say, Wendy and Marvin?

 

Teaming is always going to be problematic, since there will generally be at least one Superman on any given team, in my experience.

[FupDup]

I don't know what ATs/sets the thread creator has been using, but maybe a solution here could be to try to find an AT that is good enough to stand on its own but not quite strong enough to be "godly." 

 

Sentinels might be an idea for this, being something of a jack of all trades with moderate ranged damage and moderate armor. Maybe do an offshoot build like a Huntsman VEAT. Could do a Corruptor or Defender that isn't using the best meta sets, I dunno. It would help to know what the OP has used so far. 

[cranebump]

If you run without optimizing -- say, sticking to, at best IO's -- increase your settings, and avoid the incarnate system altogether, it ought to be naturally challenging enough. Or more challenging, at least. Perhaps consider avoiding all the XP buffs. Use only DOs, SOs or IOs (for a bigger challenge, only craft IOs based on what drops). Don't grab your usual secondary pools (Fighting, for ex). Of course, you may not find that fun, but it’s technically not handicapping.

Edited January 8 by cranebump

[Ironblade]

9 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

So it's either "play something that relies on someone ELSE being the superman tank that can't die...... or be it yourself" ?

Or just play EVERYTHING.  Back on live, I took every archetype to level 50.

Then I did tanks and took every armor set to 50.

I've also taken most of the control sets to 50.

[Skyhawke]

9 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

You've won the game as Superman.  The question is do you want to continue to win the game as Superman or try to win it as, say, Wendy and Marvin?

 

Teaming is always going to be problematic, since there will generally be at least one Superman on any given team, in my experience.

 

I was unaware Regen Melee was a thing. 

[wjrasmussen]

3 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

 

I was unaware Regen Melee was a thing. 

Is it time to nerf regen?

[Clave Dark 5]

You've played the easily-rigged version of the game and won it all, so of course you feel jaded about the rest of it.  This one power set, that one power, this single version of slotting it etc. and now literally everything else feels like just the absolute worst insulting trash. 😃  You' treated tweaking the numbers as the game... that way lies madness.  Well, boredom anyway.

 

Fun is available in this game in any number of fashions; you've now conquered one of the easier ones.  Time to define another kind of fun for yourself!

 

I can't come up with what would be fun for you, only you can do that.. but of course being a person online I have opinions and ideas and will share them with you whether you like it or not (I don't even like some of these, but you might):

• Make a new toon with only powers you want - skip all the usual prescribed zOMG power choices (unless of course you think they're fun).  For example, you think laser beams from your eyes is fun?  Take it, even though it's only single target and "only" does moderate damage.  Or go for some weird "special trick" toon like a super tanky squishie, a melee with as many ranged attacks as possible, a toon that walks combat unseen...
• Get into PVP.
• Create the silliest costume you can.
• Build the coolest base you can.
• Give Inf to newbies in Atlas Park, or hold a costume contest or something to give it away.
• Create your own stories for the MA.  Play lots of MA arcs (not farms).
• Skip all the mission teleport powers.  Do some sight seeing.
• No more speed runs, stop and bash the flowers.
• Create an AT you've never played before, or take a power set you never have before, even if you know it's numbers are so incredibly awful and degrading based upon your past knowledge of "how to play."  Maybe focus on controls and debuffs instead of damage dealing.  Create a single-target character even!

 

 

Edited January 8 by Clave Dark 5

[MoonSheep]

be the lead tank on some 4 star ITF / Aeon runs, you may find the tank surprisingly squishy

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Create an AT you've never played before, or take a power set you never have before, even if you know it's numbers are so incredibly awful and degrading based upon your past knowledge of "how to play."

 

this This This.

I made an arrows/arrows character cause I was bored of the stompathon and

zomg

it was so fun

now I seek out weird un-meta combos

sometimes they are weird

sometimes they are wild

sometimes they are wonky

but its always fun finding out

give in to the altitus......

join us......its blisssssssssssssssssss

[Digitalspork]

I might be a little biased here as a FF/NRG Defender, but the numbers side of the game is something I frankly have never given too much care about.

I've always made characters that just seem interesting or fun to play, and aren't necessarily "Best in Class", but I will do my best to make them the best that the given power sets can be.

It keeps the game fun and interesting even if my favorite Tanker is the boring classic Invuln/SS!

[MoonSheep]

16 minutes ago, Digitalspork said:

I might be a little biased here as a FF/NRG Defender, but the numbers side of the game is something I frankly have never given too much care about.

I've always made characters that just seem interesting or fun to play, and aren't necessarily "Best in Class", but I will do my best to make them the best that the given power sets can be.

It keeps the game fun and interesting even if my favorite Tanker is the boring classic Invuln/SS!

 

you have such a good point with this

 

when i first started out, i picked things which were the most fun and ran with it

 

thesedays i find it difficult, my mind wants to pick what’s most optimal and has the best contribution, rather than the most enjoyable

[SeraphimKensai]

3 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

when i first started out, i picked things which were the most fun and ran with it

 

thesedays i find it difficult, my mind wants to pick what’s most optimal and has the best contribution, rather than the most enjoyable

You might end up eventually ust rolling anything and turn it into the most optimal version.

[Greycat]

Get into RP and doing what the character needs to be instead of being what the numbers demand. Play with other RPers.  Also you don't have to run at max settings if you're trying to tell a *story* with the character, with what you pick, who you choose to (or not to) fight - even if you're not optimized for those groups.  Yes, it means you might be throwing yourself (meta-intentionally) into situations where you're going to go down... which just makes it that much better when you walk out the other side and go "... woah. I survived that."

 

Don't worry about "but someone else will have to carry the group." Nobody's "carrying" anything, and the people who worry so much about "who did the most damage" ... meh.

 

Not into that, I'll second giving yourself other challenges that force you out of that comfort zone. On live, I'd done things like "one of every control set to 50," and they can play differently (even without major power changes) between a dom an 'troller. Or make yourself - say - "The Electricians" (not sure if they exist as a SG) and do a mix of everything that has electric powers. Be an electric blaster, sentinel, corrupter, dom, controller, tank, stalker, mastermind etc. To keep it going, have only one melee or one ranged be elec/elec and everything else needs to be paired with something else. Aside from just "keeping it fresh," it forces you into ATs you might not consider otherwise because they weren't "optimal" ... but you'll have fun with them, and learn the ins and outs of *that* part of the game.

[Clave Dark 5]

14 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

these days i find it difficult, my mind wants to pick what’s most optimal and has the best contribution, rather than the most enjoyable

I've been thru that too.  I generally these days try to take god-builds into consideration, but stick to ditching anything I don't want (still very against Tough+Weave), and then see if ti works OK.  If not, then I might rework it.  But most of the time I do just fine anyways.

Edited January 9 by Clave Dark 5

[arcane]

On 1/7/2024 at 10:23 AM, PancakeGnome said:

So it's either "play something that relies on someone ELSE being the superman tank that can't die...... or be it yourself" ? 

…
 

Single target characters are pointless, because in normal play bosses just die as a side effect of all the area damage being thrown around. 

Idk, seems like a lot of nooby assumptions here

[JasperStone]

Or...

@Troo has a random character creator event.

I really like how it is set up.

[PancakeGnome]

5 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

you have such a good point with this

 

when i first started out, i picked things which were the most fun and ran with it

 

thesedays i find it difficult, my mind wants to pick what’s most optimal and has the best contribution, rather than the most enjoyable

Yea, I been playing so long I start to just see numbers and how something can be slotted and how it will play later.

It's about finding that sweet middle spot.... with a character that can be slotted in fun ways with lots of utility, but isn't a walking god. 

I think maybe my new illusion / traps might be it. I play illusion a lot, I like how even with the phantom army, it still has weakness and you need to be aware. And then traps adds a lot of interesting strategic options (so I COULD kill a huge group of elite bosses by chokepointing, but it would be nailbiting!!). 

[Captain Fabulous]

I really don't understand this, because even Tanks are squishy with SOs or common IOs. You have to purposefully go out of your way to make them godly. So maybe just don't do that?

I guarantee you no Tank with a common IO build and no Incarnates is tanking +4/x8.

[Biff Pow]

My alternative to the indestructible Tanker lately has been to go in the complete opposite direction- the massive damage Blaster. It takes some getting used to (did you know there's badges for being defeated?), but at higher levels you start to feel just as powerful in a different way.

[drbuzzard]

4 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

I really don't understand this, because even Tanks are squishy with SOs or common IOs. You have to purposefully go out of your way to make them godly. So maybe just don't do that?

I guarantee you no Tank with a common IO build and no Incarnates is tanking +4/x8.

 

Granite could. 

[Captain Fabulous]

18 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Granite could. 

Granite makes out the best of the bunch. But you're still looking at ~40% typed defense (16% for toxic/psi) and ~64% resists to E/N/F/C, 90% S/L/T, and 0% psi, so you'd still take quite a bit of damage at +4/x8 depending upon what you're fighting (Carnies, CoT, and Arachnos will wreck you while a S/L farm will tickle at best). And it comes with significant drawbacks in other areas. Not really the most engaging set to play, which is why you hardly ever see one these days.

[drbuzzard]

9 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Granite makes out the best of the bunch. But you're still looking at ~40% typed defense (16% for toxic/psi) and ~64% resists to E/N/F/C, 90% S/L/T, and 0% psi, so you'd still take quite a bit of damage at +4/x8 depending upon what you're fighting (Carnies, CoT, and Arachnos will wreck you while a S/L farm will tickle at best). And it comes with significant drawbacks in other areas. Not really the most engaging set to play, which is why you hardly ever see one these days.

 

How tough do you expect a tank to be? (your resistances are off BTW), it's higher for non l/s around 78% except psi). Psi has long been a tanker weakness, so one accepts that. On a team, granite is perfectly capable of tanking with minimal support. 

 

Heck, SR will softcap with just weave and the powers in the set. With the level of DDR the set provides, it will work just fine tanking most anything as well. 

 

You shouldn't make absolute statements is really my point. 

 

"I guarantee you no Tank with a common IO build and no Incarnates is tanking +4/x8."

Many sets are kinda squishy without IOs yes, but granite never suffered from that. It suffered from self inflicted pain. 

 

 

Edited January 9 by drbuzzard