Give Medicine Pool Power some love

[MsSmart]

I really don't understand why the medicine power is to an extent so lame, or to be more precise so handicapped.

 

Why heal other or self are interruptible at all, it seems like quite a cruel thing to do to a player who is trying to heal another or one self, no other heal in any power set are as horribly handicapped.

 

Then why is heal other has a practically insignificant range, is the intent to get the medic killed by getting next to the meat grinder to help the tank in distress? This simply makes no sense.

 

I get, that somebody thought it was being colorful to consider this pool set as a field medic as in real life, but for a super type game, this concept is simply not right.

 

So I am asking to remove the interrupts from heal other and self, and give heal other a range of 50' or better, so it can be much more useful.

 

Obviously field medic, would become irrelevant if this is done, would suggest to make it regen and recharge buff, similar to what emps can do

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[Glacier Peak]

What's the trade off? If not interruptable and the range increases, shouldn't there be a trade off that increases the endurance cost or increases the recharge rate based on a design principle? Like keeping in mind this is a pool powerset and it should not be better than a primary or secondary powerset by design. 

[CrusaderDroid]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

What's the trade off? If not interruptable and the range increases, shouldn't there be a trade off that increases the endurance cost or increases the recharge rate based on a design principle? Like keeping in mind this is a pool powerset and it should not be better than a primary or secondary powerset by design. 

The tradeoff is you had to spend a power pick on one of the least essential things in a team.

 

Once we're past that, multiple support ATs can pick up AoE heals that very quickly put single target heals to shame, which is all Medicine gets. There's really no reason to shoot out Medicine's kneecaps like this when its specialization is already very weak by nature.

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, CrusaderDroid said:

The tradeoff is you had to spend a power pick on one of the least essential things in a team.

 

Once we're past that, multiple support ATs can pick up AoE heals that very quickly put single target heals to shame, which is all Medicine gets. There's really no reason to shoot out Medicine's kneecaps like this when its specialization is already very weak by nature.

That's the thing though, support ATs are all about support. It is their identity. Players dipping into the Medicine pool aren't support characters. The Medicine pool isn't supposed to make your character a support character, it just gives you the ability to throw some supplemental heals. (And I just checked Aid Self during combat in the game. I'm not seeing any interrupt time. So the OP isn't correct.)

 

Edited April 22 by Rudra
Edited to add "So the OP isn't correct."

[ZorkNemesis]

Just now, Rudra said:

(And I just checked Aid Self during combat in the game. I'm not seeing any interrupt time.)

 

Aid Self has an interrupt period, it's just very short and generally negligible unless you're trying to use it while moving.  CoD lists a 1.0 second Interrupt period: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.medicine.aid_self

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, ZorkNemesis said:

 

Aid Self has an interrupt period, it's just very short and generally negligible unless you're trying to use it while moving.  CoD lists a 1.0 second Interrupt period: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.medicine.aid_self

My mistake. Thanks.

[Glacier Peak]

42 minutes ago, CrusaderDroid said:

The tradeoff is you had to spend a power pick on one of the least essential things in a team.

 

Once we're past that, multiple support ATs can pick up AoE heals that very quickly put single target heals to shame, which is all Medicine gets. There's really no reason to shoot out Medicine's kneecaps like this when its specialization is already very weak by nature.

The opportunity cost will persist whether the suggestion is implemented or not. It persist across all pool powers. So that's not a trade off, that's a design principle. 

 

What's the trade off of implementing this suggestion with the design formula for single target heals and self heals. 

[CrusaderDroid]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

The opportunity cost will persist whether the suggestion is implemented or not. It persist across all pool powers. So that's not a trade off, that's a design principle. 

 

What's the trade off of implementing this suggestion with the design formula for single target heals and self heals. 

It doesn't need a tradeoff - that assumes that Medicine currently exists in a perfect state of balance. Medicine is bad. It'll be less bad after this buff, but still bad. I'm honestly baffled why you would suggest it needs a tradeoff when characters are worse off in general for picking it. The very least we can do is bump it up a bit so it feels better to use if we're not going to commit to a full blown rework.

 

If you're still insistent on a tradeoff, I'd love to hear the practical applications of current Medicine in a build that make it powerful enough to merit that tradeoff.

[biostem]

Aid self is a pretty potent heal.  I just wish the capstone power also removed the interrupt from it, as the extra click power is kind of irrelevant, IMHO.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, CrusaderDroid said:

It doesn't need a tradeoff - that assumes that Medicine currently exists in a perfect state of balance. Medicine is bad. It'll be less bad after this buff, but still bad. I'm honestly baffled why you would suggest it needs a tradeoff when characters are worse off in general for picking it. The very least we can do is bump it up a bit so it feels better to use if we're not going to commit to a full blown rework.

 

If you're still insistent on a tradeoff, I'd love to hear the practical applications of current Medicine in a build that make it powerful enough to merit that tradeoff.

Thank you for attempting to answer my question about what would be the trade off if this suggestion were implemented. Saying the Medicine pool powerset is bad is a subjective opinion, which is appropriate given this is a Suggestion and Feedback thread. However, since the suggestion being made is to change the Medicine pool powerset, I am asking for an objective reason to quantify the change. I don't personally care whether someone feels something is good or bad, only whether the change is based on an objective and rational decision (i.e., it follows a design principle).

 

And since you attempted to answer my question, I will in good faith attempt to answer yours. The Medicine pool offers:

1. Aid Other: the opportunity to provide a single target heal to an ally when the primary and secondary powerset of the chosen Archetype does not grant such a power. It accepts Healing Invention Origin sets, which if desired can provide additional set bonuses that may be sought after, and can be made to provide a comparable healing value at lower levels to passing a teammate a Respite inspiration, when slotted for Heal. This could be a power choice beneficial to players interested in improving the survivability of their pets in early gameplay or as a power choice to slot Healing IO set bonus procs (much like Health from the Fitness pool). Players can already choose to remove the Interrupt period by selecting Field Medic, so that is an option if a player desires it. Adding additional range (more than doubling the range from 25ft) would put it at over half of the base range of the Single Target heals from Empathy (Heal Other + Absorb Pain) or Pain Domination (Soothe + Share Pain) all the while costing half the endurance of those powers. 
2. Injection: the opportunity for non-debuff powersets to acquire a debuff power against an enemy or a non-buff powerset to offer a buff to an ally. The debuff applies a 15 second -10% ToHit, -10% Recharge Time Rate, and a -10% Damage, which can be coupled with a near capped proc-ability chance (87% chance to proc) of 5 of the 6 Invention Origin sets available to the power. That means Injection can debuff as described before, and do 187 points of combined Ice, Negative, and Smashing damage, and -55% recharge if slotting all -recharge procs, (assuming a player adds five slots to Injection for all these procs). The ally Status Protection can also stack with each application. 
3. Aid Self: the opportunity to, much like Aid Other, provide a self heal when the primary and secondary powerset of the chosen Archetype does not grant such a power. It accepts Healing Invention Origin sets, which if desired can provide additional set bonuses that may be sought after, and can be made to provide a comparable healing value to consuming a Respite inspiration, when slotted for Heal. It also grants the player resistance to stun effects. There is synergy when a player chooses to select Field Medic as well, which provides an unenhancecable long duration (though only 8.1 seconds) endurance gain over time. For players who select a powerset without a self heal, this power grants additional resiliency by recovering from damage taken during combat quicker. This power is slightly weaker in terms of healing value than the temporary power available from the S.T.A.R.T. vendor which is not interruptable, however, it is enhanceable, recharges five times faster, and grants the user additional benefits when used with Field Medic.
4. Resuscitate: the opportunity to provide a single target resurrection to an ally when the primary and secondary powerset of the chosen Archetype does not grant such a power. It accepts Healing Invention Origin sets, which if desired can provide additional set bonuses that may be sought after. This power has a rather long activation time (7.33 seconds), which to me implies it was designed to be used after cessation of combat as opposed to Resurrect from the Empathy or Pain Domination powerset pools, or even the Resuscitator temporary power from the S.T.A.R.T. vendor. It fully heals (100%) of the ally's health when used, as opposed to 30% health with the temporary power Resuscitator. 
5. Field Medic: the opportunity to provide a 25% increase in healing strength* on self for 60 seconds, in addition to permanently removing the interrupt in Aid Other and granting the aforementioned boost to endurance on Aid Self. This power increases the healing strength* for all other healing powers, not just the Medicine Pool powerset.  It allows players to channel their knowledge as a Field Medic to become a more effective healer.

Those are the practical applications of the current Medicine Pool powerset. Players are welcome to find the right situations where choosing the Medicine Pool powerset will enable them to achieve their desired objectives more efficiently, or however they wish to measure their activity - whether that be performance or their enjoyment of gameplay.

 

Edited April 23 by Glacier Peak
*added, bound to be more edits with this wall of text...

[gabrilend]

The +25% healing bonus from Field Medic is significantly less useful to an archetype without healing powers. I can't help but wonder if that aspect of it could be changed somehow, to be more useful for every powerset.

 

Maybe it could increase all healing done to targets within 30 yards by 10%? Thematically, you could be sharing tips about first aid or whatever. This would have a similar impact for healing powersets and non-healing powersets. However this power suddenly becomes significantly more useful if you have more than a few healers on your team, and significantly less if you don't.

 

Maybe it could give a +regen aura? Similar idea, your character is sharing tips about first aid, or maybe even using your little healing gadget thing to produce a healthy aura of some kind. This would be just as useful to healing characters as to non-healing characters, and it is just as powerful on teams with other healers as teams without.

 

If an aura isn't the right way to go, then maybe if there are any overheals from your aid-other or aid-self, they get turned into a temporary health shield? Could be a good way to start a fight, and also it would increase the utility of the power as suddenly you don't have to worry about a target's current health - you'd only have to pay attention to who's taking damage at the moment. Which is something that can be done by looking at the field, rather than the health bars in the UI, which I think is a more ergonomic way to play the game.

 

Perhaps this is a non-issue, do you think Field Medic is fine? Or if not, is there a different way you'd alter it's behavior?

[FupDup]

Field Medic is just a weird capstone power to have in a pool. Like imagine if the final power in Speed was just a clicky that made you run faster for a while. IMO the final Medicine power should've been a PBAOE heal but this might run into the "Cottage Rule" issue. 

 

Aid Self and Aid Other shouldn't have any interruption window whatsoever, regardless of what happens to Field Medic. Resuscitate could maybe be changed so that it can be used as a large burst heal on living allies, similar to what was done with Phoenix Rising. Aid Self's endurance restoration should take endmod enhancement and I think the power could even use a weak amount of recovery by default (there are way too few recovery tools in pools and all of them except Aid Self are T3's with extremely long recharge times, one of which is unenhanceable). 

 

Lastly, I'd like to see a "synergy" effect similar to what the Fighting Pool has. Depending on which Med powers you pick, other powers get different bonuses, like for example picking Aid Other as your T1 would make Aid Self's heal stronger, but picking Injection would make the recovery portion a bit stronger. 

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Resuscitate could maybe be changed so that it can be used as a large burst heal on living allies, similar to what was done with Phoenix Rising.

That would make the pool power rez better than some support AT rezzes.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

to be honest id be satisfied with some alternate animations

[Vanden]

 

[Lyone_Manes]

I DO feel like it needs an AoE Heal...but I like most  of the powers as-they-are. They aren't too strong, or too weak...It just would be nice for an AoE option for those Secondaries with single-target, but not multi-target Heals.

 

Just a thought: What if the top-tier Medicine Pool ability turned the self-heal into a PBAoE?

Edited April 23 by Lyone_Manes

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, FupDup said:

 

 

Lastly, I'd like to see a "synergy" effect similar to what the Fighting Pool has. Depending on which Med powers you pick, other powers get different bonuses, like for example picking Aid Other as your T1 would make Aid Self's heal stronger, but picking Injection would make the recovery portion a bit stronger. 

Interesting

[Haijinx]

I wonder what people would think of less power pools if the ones that remained were better designed. 

 

It seems like part of the reason some are such clunkers is they do things that the Devs want to keep a closer control of. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Personally I'd change the medicine pool to get rid of the rez. Reasoning is that you can get a temp power that resurrects a target for a small amount of influence.

 

I'd replace Resuscitate with a click based self buff with an absorb shield and a regen boost.

 

Field medic I'd make an auto power and also have it remove the interrupt on aid self.

 

With these changes I feel players would be more likely to consider an otherwise under utilized power pool.

[tidge]

14 hours ago, FupDup said:

Field Medic is just a weird capstone power to have in a pool. Like imagine if the final power in Speed was just a clicky that made you run faster for a while. IMO the final Medicine power should've been a PBAOE heal but this might run into the "Cottage Rule" issue.

 

Imagine if the final power in the Flight pool was a toggle that made you fly faster.. oh wait...

 

Excuse, back to the Medicine pool. TL;DR: I think it is fine. Re-read the post by @Glacier Peak above.

 

I don't see the role of the Medicine pool to be to turn characters without healing powers into healers, I see the pool as a way to give a limited number of healing/support powers to characters that want them... plus (as mentioned in the referenced post) a pretty good %damage melee attack option.

 

I'm not categorically opposed to making some updates to the Medicine pool, for reasons:

 

#1 The Medicine pool occupies a peculiar, particular part of design space from my PoV... there isn't often much need for healing (+status) that can't be addressed by the use of Inspirations... or just running away and allowing Regeneration to do its thing. Since Inspirations are essentially just 'click powers', I don't know why a character who invests an actual power pick needs to have those early powers be interruptible.

 

#2 In a lot of team play (in my experience), preemptively applying the Absorb from Spirit Ward (Sorcery pool) to someone on the team who is likely to be taking damage is probably superior to retroactively applying Aid Other to someone that has taken damage. This doesn't sit right with me.

[UltraAlt]

20 hours ago, MsSmart said:

I really don't understand why the medicine power is to an extent so lame, or to be more precise so handicapped.

 

It is a power pool and that is part of the end cost/time/effect for reward calculation.

 

Most of the power pool powers are not created for end-game steam-rolling.

 

20 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Why heal other or self are interruptible at all, it seems like quite a cruel thing to do to a player who is trying to heal another or one self, no other heal in any power set are as horribly handicapped.

 

The Medicine pool has that because it is a power pool.

It really isn't meant to be used in-combat.

 

Think of it like being an EMT instead of being a superhero with super healing powers. 

The 4th power is even called Field Medic.

 

20 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Then why is heal other has a practically insignificant range, is the intent to get the medic killed by getting next to the meat grinder to help the tank in distress? This simply makes no sense.

 

As indicated, it is for use out-of-combat when the team "falls back"

 

I know that teams "falling back" is pretty much unheard of these days, but it happened quite a bit when you couldn't get to level 40 and even when you could get to level 50 before significant end-game content started to be added.

 

The original book for COH reads:

 

Aid Other (click) Heals a single targeted Hero. This power is interruptible, you shouldn't use this in combat.

 

Stimulant (click) Frees an ally from immobilization, sleep, disorient, or hold effects, leaving them briefly resistant to such effects. This is interruptible and shouldn't be used in the heat of combat.

 

Aid Self (click) Allows you to heal yourself. This power is interruptible.

 

... etc.

 

It was never meant to be a replacement for team mates with healing powers.

 

20 hours ago, MsSmart said:

I get, that somebody thought it was being colorful to consider this pool set as a field medic as in real life, but for a super type game, this concept is simply not right.

 

If you are a field medic and someone shoots you (or even at you) or a grenade lands near enough to you, your ability to do your job is definitely interrupted.

 

Do you think there is a problem with the rest power as well?

 

20 hours ago, MsSmart said:

So I am asking to remove the interrupts from heal other and self, and give heal other a range of 50' or better, so it can be much more useful.

 

Like any other power pool powers, it is limited because it is a power pool pick and not a primary or secondary pick based on your archetype.

The Resistance you can get from Fighting>Tough is nowhere as good as even Sentinel armor (not to mention tank, brutes, scrapper, stalker, applied shields, etc.).

The Defense you get from Hover, Combat Jumping, Fighting>Weave, Leadership>maneuvers are nowhere as good what primary/secondary archetype powers can giver you.

They are all like that. They are augmenting and not meant to replace or equal a characters primary and secondary powers.

 

20 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Obviously field medic, would become irrelevant if this is done, would suggest to make it regen and recharge buff, similar to what emps can do

 

The Med Pool isn't supposed to make your non-Empathy character an Empathy.

It is not there so that a melee character can heal themselves or make themselves mez resistant while in combat.

 

 

[FupDup]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

That would make the pool power rez better than some support AT rezzes.

My belief is that all rez powers should be usable on living targets to some effect, like what happened with Phoenix Rising. The support AT rezzes thus would/should get the same treatment. 

[Jacke]

On 4/23/2024 at 1:10 AM, Glacier Peak said:

Aid Self: the opportunity to, much like Aid Other, provide a self heal when the primary and secondary powerset of the chosen Archetype does not grant such a power. It accepts Healing Invention Origin sets, which if desired can provide additional set bonuses that may be sought after, and can be made to provide a comparable healing value to consuming a Respite inspiration, when slotted for Heal. It also grants the player resistance to stun effects. There is synergy when a player chooses to select Field Medic as well, which provides an unenhancecable long duration (though only 8.1 seconds) endurance gain over time. For players who select a powerset without a self heal, this power grants additional resiliency by recovering from damage taken during combat quicker. This power is slightly weaker in terms of healing value than the temporary power available from the S.T.A.R.T. vendor which is not interruptable, however, it is enhanceable, recharges five times faster, and grants the user additional benefits when used with Field Medic.

 

Excellent post, @Glacier Peak.  The other advantage Aid Self has over the S.T.A.R.T. temp power Med Pack is Aid Self is available in all game content, while most non-flying temp powers are disabled in a lot of the content, like iTrials.

[brass_eagle]

On 4/23/2024 at 7:58 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Personally I'd change the medicine pool to get rid of the rez. Reasoning is that you can get a temp power that resurrects a target for a small amount of influence.

 

I'd replace Resuscitate with a click based self buff with an absorb shield and a regen boost.

 

Field medic I'd make an auto power and also have it remove the interrupt on aid self.

 

With these changes I feel players would be more likely to consider an otherwise under utilized power pool.

 

This could always be changed to have different effects on friend/foe; alive/dead targets. Like the rez in Nature. Just a thought. Can do both. It's a power that requires two other power picks. Opportunity cost.

[shortguy on indom]

On 4/22/2024 at 6:32 PM, MsSmart said:

So I am asking to remove the interrupts from heal other and self, and give heal other a range of 50' or better, so it can be much more useful.

 

Obviously field medic, would become irrelevant if this is done, would suggest to make it regen and recharge buff, similar to what emps can do

Agree that the interrupts this set has can be aggravating while in the melee range, but to be expected imho if you care to venture in there.

 

Field Medic's secondary power is an important one for me, would not agree to make any changes to it for that reason.

 

The set varies in power with AT, kinda like 'leadership pool,' so unless you are a support toon you may not benefit as much from this pool power.

 

I have always ran this pool power set (defender) and its uses are very evident especially when slotted up well.  The secondary power effects are more important than the primaries to me.