Pylon Damage Thread

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Maybe I'm expressing myself poorly, but I think you're reading something way more aggressive in my replies than I intended

Nope. Just replying to your comments with counter points. I never took offense to anything you said. You said what's wrong about an equivalent 90 DPS in regards to a suggestion of making regeneration debuff 10x stronger. I answered.

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

I'm reacting to your own dismissal of marcus' idea.

We actually took our discussion offline to not bombard this thread with talks of Diamagnetic. I never dismissed his idea, though. I dismissed buffing it as high as he suggested. FWIW, he liked the idea of using partial unresistible debuffs.

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

The tohit portion is a limiting argument on how strong the contribution of Diag should be

There was no intention to quantify it. It's to remind you that it provides something else in addition to the hypothetical 90 DPS version of regeneration debuff. It is mostly arbitrary, but yes, having 20% to-hit debuffs applied when at max stacks is significant. Even if resisted by 85%, it gives you and the team the equivalent of a Steadfast Protection relative to the debuffed enemy. If not resisted, it gives you the equivalent of an enhanced Defender's Farsight. 

 

That's why I brought up the percentages (100/50 vs 75/25), to highlight the fact you can more reliably keep both buffs up on Diamagnetic than you can on Degenerative.

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Can you really argue against my dismissal of tohit debuff even though I specifically reframe the debate on the offensive side of it, and then ignore the AoE + slow aspects of LR??

Did you think I was referring to any of the secondary effects of Lingering Radiation when I made that comparison? I don't know why you're choosing to use logical fallacy as an argumentative technique, but if it helps to be explicit, my comment on 20% stronger than lingering radiation was in reference to 600% regeneration debuff is 20% stronger than 500% regeneration debuff. No to-hit debuffs and no snare effects were used in that calculation.

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Would you switch your current Degen toons to Diag if your proposal of 26% effective regen debuff against AVs went through? If not, what would it take?

Not sure what your exact question is here. Are we talking for solo AV hunting, or fighting AVs in teams (assumimg other teammates also have interface procs)? The answer is yes to both. Keep in mind, I also take other interface procs and swap them in and out as necessary. But specific to your AV example, yes, I would use my proposed Diamagnetic in an AV fight. 

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

We've all seen players, ingame and on the forums, even players who do decent challenge stuff like soloing highend TFs, swear by Diagnametic for soloing AVs, "for the -regen

I actually have not seen this. Can you point me to someone on the forums who has made this claim? I'm curious to see their reason and the context they were using.

 

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

As it is, Diagnametic is a trap

Eh...it's not that bad. But you'd be taking it more for the tohit debuff than relying on it for regeneration debuffs. This interface might be geared more towards support characters, in particular low DPS characters. For them, the added survivability from to-hit debuffs along with not letting the enemy regenerate as quickly can be rather useful in specific scenarios. 

[nihilii]

23 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I actually have not seen this. Can you point me to someone on the forums who has made this claim? I'm curious to see their reason and the context they were using.

This was the poster I thought of when it comes to the forums: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18585-titanbio-scrapper-stf-solo-tactics/?tab=comments#comment-20706

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, nihilii said:

This was the poster I thought of when it comes to the forums: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18585-titanbio-scrapper-stf-solo-tactics/?tab=comments#comment-20706

Thanks, I didnt see any follow up from them. I wonder if they misspoke (lots of folks mix up saying degenerative and diamagnetic), or if they thought the extra 60% regen debuff paired with his longbow was necessary. There is an inverse proportion that comes with debuffing regeneration, so not sure if they liked the amount the Iongbow gave and just wanted to squeeze a little more towards capping the regen debuff. If anyone knows longbows numbers, I could show what I mean on that. But basically it would be similar to how getting close to softcap/hardcap becomes exponentially stronger, that regen period grows and grows.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Bopper

[nihilii]

The Longbow Cataphract does -500% regen for 30s on a 10s recharge, 4s animation attack. It has few enough attacks it probably uses the power as often as it's up, but on the flipside it also has a tendency to want to hug the target and then get KBed away...

[marcussmythe]

The first thing to do with your Cataphract is order it to stand still a safe distance away.

 

I think the best answer for Diamagnetic would to be to make a sufficient percentage irresistible that it would -comfortably- outperform any other interface option, in the role of big game hunting - enough to justify a T4 Incarnate that really only matters in the smallest fraction of content.

 

Some of this is driven by flavor and fluff concerns, inasmuch as this is a game about superheroes.  The idea that Jael-El daughter of Cal-El can only defeat Gloomflank if she remembered to go buy magic daggers and whistle up a robot, lest the two flail ineffectually at each other until Jael-El gets bored and goes home, just never felt right to me.

[Maxzero]

 

Some things to keep in mind with the Core v Radial debate from my PoV:

 

1) Double hit always works. If your are at the damage cap (which is quite common in leagues, with a /Kin around or if you get a bunch of Red Inspiration drops) then Core Assault basically does nothing.

 

2) Getting constantly max stacks of Core is actually not very reliable in non AoE situations. A 65% chance to proc a buff that last 10 seconds where each stack's duration is counted individually (ie a proc does not refresh the duration of all the stacks) means most of the time you will be rolling around 3 stacks.

 

Considering the most common use of Hybrid Assault is for burning down tough AVs where you are often in leagues/full teams these are actually significant issues.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Maxzero

[Sir Myshkin]

3 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

1) Double hit always works. If your are at the damage cap (which is quite common in leagues, with a /Kin around or if you get a bunch of Red Inspiration drops) then Core Assault basically does nothing.

Worthwhile consideration, but not always the case. I keep my damage window open and the only times I've ever been confident in saying "I will be damage capped" is on MSR's, and even then it's not a 100% thing (more like 60% of the time). Either way, valid point that someone can take into consideration. The bigger aspect is really more of a "self reliance" perspective, and/or solo perspective.

 

5 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

2) Getting constantly max stacks of Core is actually not very reliable in non AoE situations. A 65% chance to proc a buff that last 10 seconds where each stack's duration is counted individually (ie a proc does not refresh the duration of all the stacks) means most of the time you will be rolling around 3 stacks.

If you're saying Single Target scenario is unreliable then I'd have to disagree strictly from practical experience alone. Most cases I've monitored and tested max stacks is more than doable, there have been very few cases where I've noticed drops of significance that weren't directly correlated to the activation of a longer animation power, but that is also focused on using Core for a singular purpose (one hard target).

 

And like you mentioned with AV's, I think/agree an inherent fault of the Hybrid Assault is the idea of using it for significant moments, and less about "just keep it running." I know I am personally in that boat, but when I'm not doing Incarnate content the Hybrid feels like excessive overkill a lot of the time to me and thus I never use it. 😅 Using the Radial as a "constant on" option would be a lot less stressful to manage knowing "on is on." Unfortunately it doesn't change the course that (in the majority of regular generic play) we're unlikely to actually be significantly buffed to the point that Core isn't adding value, thus it tends to be a strong(er) option a lot more often in those reserve cases.

 

Personally I find myself using two options anymore, an Assault for intended kills, and a Melee/Support for the team-spread effects for most all other play (esp considering one of them includes a +Dam component anyway).

 

tl;dr - Yeah I totally get what you're saying, but I don't know many (and have the assumption that not many do) that use the Hybrid Assault outside of targeted purposes, and to an extent I kind of agree that Radial is probably the safer (won't say better) option for "always on" play if someone actually kept clicking it at refresh.

[marcussmythe]

Yannow, to the extent we arent already in them, we almost oughta form a supergroup for the people who like DPS chasing, big-game hunting, and other 'Extreme Sports' CoH...

[Crater Kate]

More fuel for the fire!

 

As a callback to Page 1 of the thread, ran a few runs with my Street Justice/SR/Body Stalker to see how I was stacking up. T4 Musculature Core, T3 Degenerative Core, T4 Assault Core untoggled.

 

Results:

 

2:41 - missed about half a dozen from-stealth Crushing Uppercuts, Combo 3 Assassin's Strikes, etc. Then got knocked twice by the Pylon through 59% positional.

1:50

1:44 - pretty sure this one I ran hot with -res procs

2:03

1:56

 

So.... outliers on either end aside, I'm getting a fairly consistent bit-under-2-minute time. On an iSoftcapped Stalker.

 

Yeah, I'm proud of this one!

[Doomrider]

Well this is probably the highest DPS run I've seen/heard of on a Peacebringer...
Did a run the other day on my Peacebringer ( no temps, no insps, no outside buffs, hybrid off) 3:15 but just tried the same run this morning with Hybrid Radial T4 on...

2:43 second finish... I think that's 392 DPS if my math is correct.  363 DPS.

edit: DPS = 127.82 + 38346/time where time = 163 seconds. 

Still Not bad for an Kheld I think.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Doomrider
Math was incorrect.

[Sir Myshkin]

So I did a thing...

 

Posted about it a couple of places, put it together (like legitimately leveled this up, about 25% off XP boosters too). I suppose in total I've probably spent 20-30 hours playing around with the character, did a few things solo just to get a feel for it, and at the end of the day it has become something I absolutely don't enjoy playing unless I'm "role playing" the 1920's Harvard Boxing League Teddy Roosevelt personality I wrote into his biography.

 

My Primary Attack Chain: Weaken Resolve > Cross Punch > Boxing > Kick > Cross Punch > Boxing > Kick

 

Yup, that's right. The Fightin' Pool Baby!

 

Heavily peppered with Caltrops, two twists of Acid Mortar, and a generous gassing of Poison Trap.

 

Without Any Incarnate Abilities AT ALL: Cleared the Pylon 6:14 (230 DPS)

 

With the addition of T4(Assault Radial, Degenerative Radial, Ageless Core, Musculature Core, Mighty Core): 3:40 (302 DPS)

 

All Star Power: Caltrops, for doing well over 10 DPS on its own

 

Had to port the character over to the test server to do the Incarnate Inclusive Run, character barely has the Alpha slot unlocked on Live, and I'm highly unlikely to actually do anything else with him moving forward. I'm not much for the gun-themed sets.

 

The MAN:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Traps
Secondary Power Set: Assault Rifle
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Force of Will
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Caltrops -- Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(A), JvlVll-Dam%(31), PstBls-Dam%(31)
Level 1: Burst -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(29)
Level 2: Triage Beacon -- Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg(36), Prv-Heal(37), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 4: Boxing -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(5), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mk'Bit-Dam%(7), TchofDth-Dam%(7), GldStr-%Dam(9)
Level 6: Kick -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Hct-Acc/Rchg(11), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Hct-Dam%(15), TchofDth-Dam%(23)
Level 8: Acid Mortar -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Apc-Acc/Rchg(39), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Apc-Dam%(40), TchofLadG-%Dam(40)
Level 10: M30 Grenade -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(37), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(43), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(46), FrcFdb-Rechg%(46)
Level 12: Force Field Generator -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(13), ShlWal-Def(13), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(42), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(42)
Level 14: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(15), HO:Ribo(34)
Level 16: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), GifoftheA-Def(17), GifoftheA-Def/EndRdx(17), GifoftheA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Cross Punch -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(19), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Arm-Dam%(21), FrcFdb-Rechg%(21), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(23)
Level 20: Poison Trap -- GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(A), UnbCns-Dam%(25), GldNet-Dam%(25), NrnSht-Dam%(27), Lck-%Hold(27)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(48), Rct-Def/EndRdx(48), Rct-ResDam%(48)
Level 24: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(43), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(50), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(50), GssSynFr--Build%(50)
Level 26: Mighty Leap -- WntGif-RunSpd/Jump/Fly/Rng/EndRdx(A), WntGif-ResSlow(42)
Level 28: Weaken Resolve -- ShlBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ShlBrk-Acc/Rchg(33), ShlBrk-%Dam(33), CldSns-%Dam(33), TchofLadG-%Dam(34), AchHee-ResDeb%(34)
Level 30: Teleport Foe -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 32: Victory Rush -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 35: Charged Armor -- UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(36), UnbGrd-Max HP%(36)
Level 38: Full Auto -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), JvlVll-Dam%(39), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), PstBls-Dam%(46)
Level 41: Recall Friend -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 44: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 47: Unleash Potential -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Qck-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(3), Mrc-Rcvry+(3)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(29), PrfShf-End%(31)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Mighty Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Rebirth Core Epiphany
Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment
------------

 

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Edited July 15, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
exported the wrong build format

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

So I did a thing

Funny, the thing that surprised me most...it was a defender. Thats one of the lowest AT melee modifiers you could have (maybe it is the lowest?). Nicely done.

 

*Nerf Cross Punch* lol

[Sovera]

Fire/Claws Tanker. All T4: Musculature 45%, Degenerative, Hybrid, etc.

 

First attempt: 3:40 minutes.

My 4 points of -KB robbed me a lot of time since I kept being bounced up. I also used Barrier mid combat trying to mitigate the KB which robbed me of another 3 seconds.

 

Second attempt: 3:50 minutes.

I 'cheated' and used the empowerment stations to add KB protection. Despite not being KB anymore and not using Barrier midcombat I lost 10 seconds <_<

 

Third attempt: 3 minutes.

Used Hybrid.

 

Fourth attempt. 3:50 minutes.

My rotation is feeling like it is not optimal. I apply Follow-Up too much at the expense of other powers that do twice the damage.

 

Fifth attempt: 3:07 seconds.

Turns out my gut feeling was correct.

 

Sixth attempt: 3:13 minutes.

New rotation definitely shaved 30 seconds off.

 

Seventh and last attempt: 2:47 minutes.

Used Hybrid.

 

It's not quite TW or double stacked Rage, buuuuut.... on the other it exemps like a MFing champ down to level 15 and everything 15+ is icing on the cake for the build.

 

 

As usual the pylons did not hurt in the slightest and with just Focused Accuracy turned off I had to use Consume once in each test.

[Sir Myshkin]

10 hours ago, Bopper said:

Funny, the thing that surprised me most...it was a defender. That's one of the lowest AT melee modifiers you could have (maybe it is the lowest?). Nicely done.

 

*Nerf Cross Punch* lol

Story Time! Going to spoiler this to keep the thread cleaner and the content easier to ignore/skip over.

Spoiler

Originally there was a build slash play style concept back on Retail that was meant to be a challenge for players designed around making "powerless" characters, as in characters who weren't actually "super" but just a regular joe-shmoe off the street. The game inherently doesn't have very many sets that lend to this more natural effect and are usually tied to simple weapons sets to get the least impact. Street Justice is probably the most stripped-down set, and Willpower likely its best counterpart from a "as natural as possible" choice, but there's still an element in each (in my opinion) that doesn't feel stripped enough to count. Street Justice still has some very strong oompf in it, and is very-much along the lines of a "trained to be here/done this a lot" which makes the "average joe" feeling non-existent.

 

I started looking at disconnected sets, things that weren't tied intrinsically to "power" or training, and the only sets that really leave that open are Devices for Blasters, and Traps for Defenders/Corruptors. Even Trick Arrow includes skill and training (Agility, Gymnast). Archery and Dual Pistols, and even Assault Rifle really all have an element of "practice and skill", but of those Assault Rifle is the most stripped back if I just look at it from M30 Grenade and Full Auto which are both powers that are "spray and pray" in their simplest form. For Traps I could easily get away with calling the units themselves salvaged scrap stolen/found/bought through a multitude of means, and a regular person doesn't need much to turn a device on and watch it work. Thus Traps/AR was the answer. Doing it on a Defender came down to modifiers for Tough, Weave, and Debuffs, I knew that it was going to mean a lot more to bending the Fighting Pool than doing it on a Corruptor.

 

As I was leveling up the build, initially it didn't seem that weird to be running around at level 5-10 carrying these powers (Boxing, Kick) as it supplemented pretty well and I felt like just another unenhanced Melee in the crowd, and with so few people actually really paying attention to builds no one ever really noticed. By the time I got into my 20's, had Tough, Weave, Maneuvers, and FFG I was a pretty untouchable little Defender. I might not have been winning the crowd over with hard-hitting attacks, but I could easily take the alpha of any group sporting around with 40% defense to everything. Eventually I picked up the necessary slots to get all the unique IO's I needed, and mostly-slotted on attacks sans some of the 50-locked IO's by my mid 30's. I knew going in that Boxing and Kick were basically floored probability, and Cross Punch having a FF+Rech and a -Res were "icing on the cake procs" when they happened, so not seeing them terribly often wasn't a huge loss, but I was really starting to feel the weight of "my damage kind of sucks."

 

By the 40's I was painstakingly bending over the humor the circumstances rather than the "power" of anything the set could do. Kicking a Vampyr and watching it flail over is pretty darn amusing, but anything Boss level and up was a "struggle" to really deal with if I couldn't open them up with Weakened Resolve first. I know it's a Defender, their damage scaling isn't stellar (it is collectively the lowest or in contention with Controllers). My first real glimmer of power came when I fought the EB from the end of the Halloween tip mission. We were running out of time and no one had stealth, but I knew I could just waltz through the map uninhibited so I bolted to the end. Cleared out the spawns with liberal use of Full Auto and went to town on the EB with the previously mentioned chain, but the bugger wouldn't stop running running RUNNING away from me, so frustrating. Every time I dropped Acid Mortar he'd run like a headless chicken.

 

I said "Fine, I'll just beat you to submission the old fashioned way." And it actually was enough. That's what gave me the push to finally just hit 50 and check his clear capacity. I know it's definitely not taking down a 54 AV, but 50 is doable so long as the AV doesn't rabbit on me, and I've had varying levels of success in testing those odds having joined some Maria/Tina arc teams to find out how often they'll bolt or not. So far most of the Praetorian's are willing to sit and accept their fate.

 

The journey to 50 was fun at first, and miserable towards the end. I'd say it was overall my worst leveling experience and don't have any intention of trying to repeat that. In the end I proved that it was an entirely viable path and that the pool is strong enough to work in the game. It was boosted by the presence of both a -Regen and multiple -Res sources to help support it, but that was a key element of necessity in choosing/using a Defender in the first place.

 

From 1 to 50 I only had three very brief conversations with random folks asking about the character and the choices, of which boiled down to "ah, neat." I had several people see "Defender", and even comment on it being Assault Rifle and saying things like "Classic Build!!!" Yet none of those individuals actually noticed I only possessed the starter Burst, M30, and Full Auto and nothing else. In that same vein I also never had anyone complain about the build either, which I had expected at least on or two of, but never happened. Some part of me questions if the presence of 30+ set bonuses from level 20 on may have been enough to convince nay-sayers from even commenting. A typical "new" player isn't likely to be running around with Steadfast, Glad Armor, Shield Wall, several LotG 7.5's, a Defender ATO set, and half a WO set at 25. Not an Inf Flex, I had most of that from other drops 😅

 

tl;dr Defender was specific to the necessity of the concept of walking up to a regular citizen and saying "Hey, can you toss a wild punch and push a button on this random stolen Sky Raiders tech? Cool, you're a hero now."

 

7 hours ago, Sovera said:

My rotation is feeling like it is not optimal. I apply Follow-Up too much at the expense of other powers that do twice the damage.

What chain are you rotating through?

 

Typical for Claws: FU > Focus > Slash (-Res) > SW (-Res) [5/s, allows for easy 2x stack on FU]

This used to be the considered standard: FU > Focus > Slash (-Res), but harder to achieve for the recharge needed to get FU down, and it appears having Shockwave with the extra -Res is marginally better, and easier to obtain. This shorter chain allows for a brief window of 3x FU every third Focus.

[Boulis]

On 7/15/2020 at 4:31 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

Story Time! Going to spoiler this to keep the thread cleaner and the content easier to ignore/skip over.

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Originally there was a build slash play style concept back on Retail that was meant to be a challenge for players designed around making "powerless" characters, as in characters who weren't actually "super" but just a regular joe-shmoe off the street. The game inherently doesn't have very many sets that lend to this more natural effect and are usually tied to simple weapons sets to get the least impact. Street Justice is probably the most stripped-down set, and Willpower likely its best counterpart from a "as natural as possible" choice, but there's still an element in each (in my opinion) that doesn't feel stripped enough to count. Street Justice still has some very strong oompf in it, and is very-much along the lines of a "trained to be here/done this a lot" which makes the "average joe" feeling non-existent.

 

I started looking at disconnected sets, things that weren't tied intrinsically to "power" or training, and the only sets that really leave that open are Devices for Blasters, and Traps for Defenders/Corruptors. Even Trick Arrow includes skill and training (Agility, Gymnast). Archery and Dual Pistols, and even Assault Rifle really all have an element of "practice and skill", but of those Assault Rifle is the most stripped back if I just look at it from M30 Grenade and Full Auto which are both powers that are "spray and pray" in their simplest form. For Traps I could easily get away with calling the units themselves salvaged scrap stolen/found/bought through a multitude of means, and a regular person doesn't need much to turn a device on and watch it work. Thus Traps/AR was the answer. Doing it on a Defender came down to modifiers for Tough, Weave, and Debuffs, I knew that it was going to mean a lot more to bending the Fighting Pool than doing it on a Corruptor.

 

As I was leveling up the build, initially it didn't seem that weird to be running around at level 5-10 carrying these powers (Boxing, Kick) as it supplemented pretty well and I felt like just another unenhanced Melee in the crowd, and with so few people actually really paying attention to builds no one ever really noticed. By the time I got into my 20's, had Tough, Weave, Maneuvers, and FFG I was a pretty untouchable little Defender. I might not have been winning the crowd over with hard-hitting attacks, but I could easily take the alpha of any group sporting around with 40% defense to everything. Eventually I picked up the necessary slots to get all the unique IO's I needed, and mostly-slotted on attacks sans some of the 50-locked IO's by my mid 30's. I knew going in that Boxing and Kick were basically floored probability, and Cross Punch having a FF+Rech and a -Res were "icing on the cake procs" when they happened, so not seeing them terribly often wasn't a huge loss, but I was really starting to feel the weight of "my damage kind of sucks."

 

By the 40's I was painstakingly bending over the humor the circumstances rather than the "power" of anything the set could do. Kicking a Vampyr and watching it flail over is pretty darn amusing, but anything Boss level and up was a "struggle" to really deal with if I couldn't open them up with Weakened Resolve first. I know it's a Defender, their damage scaling isn't stellar (it is collectively the lowest or in contention with Controllers). My first real glimmer of power came when I fought the EB from the end of the Halloween tip mission. We were running out of time and no one had stealth, but I knew I could just waltz through the map uninhibited so I bolted to the end. Cleared out the spawns with liberal use of Full Auto and went to town on the EB with the previously mentioned chain, but the bugger wouldn't stop running running RUNNING away from me, so frustrating. Every time I dropped Acid Mortar he'd run like a headless chicken.

 

I said "Fine, I'll just beat you to submission the old fashioned way." And it actually was enough. That's what gave me the push to finally just hit 50 and check his clear capacity. I know it's definitely not taking down a 54 AV, but 50 is doable so long as the AV doesn't rabbit on me, and I've had varying levels of success in testing those odds having joined some Maria/Tina arc teams to find out how often they'll bolt or not. So far most of the Praetorian's are willing to sit and accept their fate.

 

The journey to 50 was fun at first, and miserable towards the end. I'd say it was overall my worst leveling experience and don't have any intention of trying to repeat that. In the end I proved that it was an entirely viable path and that the pool is strong enough to work in the game. It was boosted by the presence of both a -Regen and multiple -Res sources to help support it, but that was a key element of necessity in choosing/using a Defender in the first place.

 

From 1 to 50 I only had three very brief conversations with random folks asking about the character and the choices, of which boiled down to "ah, neat." I had several people see "Defender", and even comment on it being Assault Rifle and saying things like "Classic Build!!!" Yet none of those individuals actually noticed I only possessed the starter Burst, M30, and Full Auto and nothing else. In that same vein I also never had anyone complain about the build either, which I had expected at least on or two of, but never happened. Some part of me questions if the presence of 30+ set bonuses from level 20 on may have been enough to convince nay-sayers from even commenting. A typical "new" player isn't likely to be running around with Steadfast, Glad Armor, Shield Wall, several LotG 7.5's, a Defender ATO set, and half a WO set at 25. Not an Inf Flex, I had most of that from other drops 😅

 

tl;dr Defender was specific to the necessity of the concept of walking up to a regular citizen and saying "Hey, can you toss a wild punch and push a button on this random stolen Sky Raiders tech? Cool, you're a hero now."

 

What chain are you rotating through?

 

Typical for Claws: FU > Focus > Slash (-Res) > SW (-Res) [5/s, allows for easy 2x stack on FU]

This used to be the considered standard: FU > Focus > Slash (-Res), but harder to achieve for the recharge needed to get FU down, and it appears having Shockwave with the extra -Res is marginally better, and easier to obtain. This shorter chain allows for a brief window of 3x FU every third Focus.

I think I’m a bit confused by the above and need some clarification. Why is SW more optimal than, say, Eviscerate? I understand that people hate the aesthetics of the animation (I am no fan of it myself) but is there another reason besides an aesthetic one that one would choose SW over Eviscerate? Is Eviscerate more of an End hog? Is it slower? I see some claws/sr people completely ignore it and I would have no problem doing the same if there was solid math behind that choice.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Boulis said:

I think I’m a bit confused by the above and need some clarification. Why is SW more optimal than, say, Eviscerate? I understand that people hate the aesthetics of the animation (I am no fan of it myself) but is there another reason besides an aesthetic one that one would choose SW over Eviscerate? Is Eviscerate more of an End hog? Is it slower? I see some claws/sr people completely ignore it and I would have no problem doing the same if there was solid math behind that choice.

Really long animation. About 1.5 times as long as shockwave. Thing is, if you're running a scrapper, the extra crit bonus on eviscerate coupled with the +crit chances from the AT IOs makes it a very hard hitting attack often. Pretty sure the best time I got on my claws/bio scrapper was with a fu, focus, evisc, repeat chain. Shockwave's end cost was always way too high for me to ever use it in a ST attack chain. I know with Destiny Ageless you can get away with it, but for me, I'd rather just stick with fu, focus, slash, repeat and a boatload of recharge to make it happen.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[marcussmythe]

Given SRs inherit recharge, and lack of END mechanics, choosing the higher recharge, lower END cost rotation makes perfect sense.  Yes, you could support the more expensive cycle with an appropriate incarnate - but having it open to other purposes also has real value.

[Sir Myshkin]

8 hours ago, Boulis said:

I think I’m a bit confused by the above and need some clarification. Why is SW more optimal than, say, Eviscerate? I understand that people hate the aesthetics of the animation (I am no fan of it myself) but is there another reason besides an aesthetic one that one would choose SW over Eviscerate? Is Eviscerate more of an End hog? Is it slower? I see some claws/sr people completely ignore it and I would have no problem doing the same if there was solid math behind that choice.

puts on professor cap

 

Core concepts on creating an attack chain (AoE or ST, or a combo of both) is looking at what provides the most "Bang for Buck" (Damage for Cost/Cast), and repeating the best options as often as possible. Every attack has what is called a "DPA" or Damage Per Activation. This is the Dam / Cast = DPA.

• Shockwave has an "Arcana Time" (Cast+ServerTickDelay) of 1.188 and does a base 72.26 Damage, its DPA is 60.82.
• Eviscerate has an Arcana of 2.508, base of 143.2, DPA of 57.09.

Technically Eviscerate has a higher critical opportunity which makes is better exclusively on Scrappers over say Brutes or Tankers who don't get that function. Shockwave has an opportunity to Critical as well, but not as high as Eviscerate. From a Single-Target perspective it is reasonable to want to take Eviscerate, and it too can slot similarly between sets and procs (including a -Res proc which also happens to be -20% compared to the one Shockwave can slot at -12.5%). Now at this point Eviscerate is sounding pretty tasty, so why would I not take it, right?

 

Well the answer to that comes down to a handful of reasons that all pretty-much come down to the cast and function of the two powers:

• Shockwave is a long-reach cone that does KB (can convert to KD) and is surprisingly very strong for such an ability. Typically a cone/aoe would not have a DPA that makes it comparable (or potentially better) than a normal ST attack. It also has a very fast cast time (1.188 is very quick compared to many other attacks in the same set which are slightly, to significantly longer). Eviscerate may be able to tag in its short cone an extra 2-3 bodies if they're clumped well enough, but Shockwave can grab an entire spawn, and having that as an option in your main attack chain is very handy.
• Follow Up is the binding agent that makes Claws shine by giving it a significant damage and to-hit boost, plus the ability can stack ontop of itself. Typically a reasonable amount of recharge in a build can manage to effectively get this down to "2x", which means an effective attack cycle that happens within 5/s each go-around to keep up FU's 10/s duration stacked on itself after it gets rolling. In many cases of casual recharge another attack needs to fill the small remainder gap which is where something like Strike sometimes comes into play early on, or conveniently Shockwave after 32 that is a bit better. Eviscerate could be exchanged (potentially) for a couple of options, or just added in, but its cast time tends to force the "5/s" cycle off kilter, which isn't the best.
  • Typical go-to chain for Claws is FU > Focus > Slash (with slash having a -Res proc), but it requires an insane amount of recharge to get FU down to that <3/s recharge. A reason why this is so sought-after is the fact that FU > Focus > Slash ends up with a very tiny window where it triple stacks FU and allows just enough time to tag Focus with that 3x buff, making Focus hit incredibly hard.
  • An "easy" chain that works similarly is FU > Focus > Eviscerate (with -Res) which is a bit more forgiving on recharge and still fits (squeezes in at .1/s under 5/s). But a lot of practical testing tends to lean that an attack that starts growing beyond 2/s, especially 2.5+ is dramatically more damaging to consistency when it misses because of the amount of window it consumes to do its job. Focus has a DPA of 72.47 and an Arcana cast of 1.32, doubled up that is 144.94 and 2.64/s, Eviscerate is (as noted) 57.09 at 2.508. Even if Eviscerate critical for double value, it still isn't anywhere near just using Focus twice, so we really, really want to make Focus happen as much as possible, thus we stick with Slash (shorter cast, 'same' base DPA, net overall gain to DPS).
    • Keep this note strongly in mind on one reason why Eviscerate so commonly gets skipped. If Claws can do 144.94 base DPA with Focus in 2.6/s, if Eviscerate is being used, and it misses, not only are you missing out on the 57.09 DPA in that window, but the overall net loss of what could have been much much more. If one Focus were to miss, it's only 1.32/s of lost time, and can quickly be earned another chance after just a couple of seconds cool down. Fast, strong attacks are very forgiving to DPS when it comes to misses. Slow and heavy attacks are very damaging to DPS when they miss because they prevent better, optimal recovery.

A couple others mentioned the Endurance cost as a concerning factor, and to touch on that one reason Eviscerate isn't seen as a hungry ability is because, again, its cast time is so long. Our endurance is recovered at a base #.## "End Per Second" (server ticks apply to us and all too, but lets just go with it cause the math washes the same). Lets say you have a typical 3.00 EPS (nice round number). Shockwave with decent enhancement comes down to about 7.24 end, and casts in 1.188, that's kind of an expensive trade. Eviscerate (slotted the same exact way) comes down to 5.56, and casts 2.5, its cheaper, right? Well, technically not only is it cheaper, it's kind of "free" by consequence. If you recover 3.00 EPS, and it casts in 2.5/s, you're actually earning 7.5 total end during that cast cycle, meaning you actually gain almost 2 points of Endurance! Because of this, Eviscerate inclusive chains can feel a lot less stressful on the end bar.

 

 

Back to the original question. I did briefly mentioned that Strike was another common filler which can just as easily serve a purpose, fill the chain in the appropriate gap, and doesn't cost as much endurance to use, so why (other than its cone, we're only thinking ST after all, right?) would I take Shockwave if its going to burn me out? That answer comes down to that -Res proc I hinted at. Even at -12.5% (nearly half what we see in many others that do the same function), that proc is force-multiplying your entire attack chain's damage when it goes off, and it lasts for 10/s. Even if has a sporadic trigger and you only see it a couple times a minute, it is boosting your overall performance above what was possible supplementing with Strike. The rest of that comes down to finding some good end-management techniques (or Ageless Incarnate Destiny).

 

In the end I guess you could simplify all of that down to "It's Math" if you wanted, but the math has purpose and reason behind it to justify the values and numbers.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Sir Myshkin

[Boulis]

Thank you everyone for the superbly comprehensive responses (especially you SM)!  I occasionally lurked on the old live boards and I feel these forums have now equaled them in terms of hospitality and utility. Truly inspiring stuff!

 

Edit: I see the possibility of Achilles’ Heel on Slash but which is the -Res proc for SW?

Edited July 18, 2020 by Boulis

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Boulis said:

Edit: I see the possibility of Achilles’ Heel on Slash but which is the -Res proc for SW?

Annihilation in Targeted AoE has the -RES proc.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Ouch. New EM/SR brute. T3 Musc and T1 Degen. Attack chain is ET/BS/TF/BS/repeat. 8 frelling minutes.

 

Edit 1: Dropped 2 mins off, down to 6, by having T3 Musc, Degen and Pyronic in play.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Croax]

I was recently testing two Stalkers because i could not decide which to play. I guess i can post here my results'

The Test have all been done with T4 Incarnates using, Musculature Alpha, Degenerative Core, Ageless Core, Assault Core. I walked to the pylon and cast Hasten, Ageless and Toggled on Assault. Hit Build Up queued Crushing Uppercut and hit Start on the timer before CU Hit. Now the times:

 

 

I used this rotation on both Stalkers and clicked no other Powers beside Build Up. Build Up was used allways instead of Heavy Blow:

Crushing Uppercut -> Shin Breaker -> Heavy Blow -> Assassin Strike

-> Sweeping Cross -> Shin Breaker -> Heavy Blow -> Assassin Strike -> REPEAT

 

Both builds are for generell PvE and not tailored towards Pylon kill times. The EnA as a Defense set has 75% SL Resist just to make sure in which direction these two are optimized. I like to play both. These times are not breaking any records. But i wanted to share my pylon kills with you 😁

[Pzn]

On 7/9/2020 at 9:37 AM, Doomrider said:

Well this is probably the highest DPS run I've seen/heard of on a Peacebringer...
Did a run the other day on my Peacebringer ( no temps, no insps, no outside buffs, hybrid off) 3:15 but just tried the same run this morning with Hybrid Radial T4 on...

2:43 second finish... I think that's 392 DPS if my math is correct. 

Not bad for an Kheld I think.

 

Nicely done.  Pulling that DPS on a PB is impressive.  What does your typical attack chain look like?

[Doomrider]

5 hours ago, josh1622 said:

Nicely done.  Pulling that DPS on a PB is impressive.  What does your typical attack chain look like?

Thanks, I was surprised I could pull this off without Cross Punch and FotG tbh.

Attack chain is Radiant Strike -> Nova Blast -> Gleaming Blast -> Nova Blast -> Radiant Strike. Casting Seekers when up, immediately after casting Inner Light.
All 3 attacks are proc'd out, Achilles heel in both Gleaming and Radiant for -res up time.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Doomrider said:

Thanks, I was surprised I could pull this off without Cross Punch and FotG tbh.

Attack chain is Radiant Strike -> Nova Blast -> Gleaming Blast -> Nova Blast -> Radiant Strike. Casting Seekers when up, immediately after casting Inner Light.
All 3 attacks are proc'd out, Achilles heel in both Gleaming and Radiant for -res up time.

O.o

That's a whole lotta form shifting. Or am I missing something?