Focused Feedback: Rage

[MunkiLord]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

The formula can be broken with enough justification, but I don't think that would necessary to fix Super Strength. Contrary to some doomsaying we've been hearing on the subject lately, the set isn't in some dire straights that would require drastic action to fix. And we shouldn't make a habit of just ignoring the formulas. This isn't /coxg, after all.

This is all reasonable to me, and I don't disagree with you. I'm just not a fan of blind devotion to a formula. And your reply shows me you're not either, so we're on the same page. 

[Teirusu]

3 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

..............

 

Jab/Punch/Haymaker sit at 2, 4, and 8 second recharges. Among sets with 3 ST attacks in succession, they usually sit at 3-4, 5-8, and 8-12. That shifts their damage/end scale higher. If you shifted Jab/Punch/Haymaker to 3/6/8 respectively you've have a slightly harder hitting, more expensive Jab and Punch, with an untouched Haymaker. 4/8/12 and you'd have much harder hitting, but more expensive attacks.

 

................

The problem with this idea, which I've mentioned this waaaay back in the other Rage thread back in the suggestion forum, is that it makes people believe that Jab/Punch/Haymaker are all under-performing.  I keep seeing this particular line repeated from one poster after another poster.

 

They're not.

 

Both Punch and Haymaker are basically the EXACT same powers as Stone Fist and Stone Mallet with a slight reduction in DPA compared to those two powers.  And, in my humble opinion, the DPA difference is slight enough to not even matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

So, the only power in the whole set that one could legitimately claim as an under-preforming power compared to Stone Melee is Jab.  Jab competes with Heavy Mallet.  (The actual order you get the powers means absolutely jack in this context.)  All of the rest of the powers are.. functionally the same!  Knockout Blow does have a 5 second longer cooldown and lower DPA, true.  However, you get Foot Stomp (Awesome) as opposed to Tremor (Definitely not as good). 

 

We've already discussed the issue with being forced to take the T1 powers and Captain Powerhouse has already mentioned they're going to revisit that problem down the road with hopefully a better solution.

 

Honestly, the only thing I could see them do is buff Jab to make it better but then, they'd probably have to make Rage not stack.  People would definitely not agree on that from what I can see.  Brutes can skip Jab, so they'd certainly take up pitchforks about that.

 

The only thing I feel like they could do to make SS better without a major re-work (And lots of whining) would be to give Hurl (And Hurl Boulder for that matter) some token splash damage.  THe idea being that the rock you just tossed explodes into pieces and hits nearby mobs.  The Cast Time on both of those powers is long enough that I wouldn't consider using it regularly but, it could be nice as an opener.  They would still be ranged powers, but act like Targetted AOEs with the targeted mob getting the full damage.

[William Valence]

3 hours ago, Vindicator said:

This.  The whole "but, but, muh cottage rule" needs to evolve.

Doesn't help that the cottage rule is one of the most misunderstood, and misapplied things in the CoX community.

[Captain Citadel]

Making Hurl better is still not going to fix the fact that Rage is a required power, whereas Build Up is not required in every other set. Build Up is more of a "limit break" power that you only take if you want it. Single-stack perma-Rage is required to make Super Strength deal respectable damage. I don't want to take Rage. I don't like the crashes associated with it, particularly the damage crash. I don't want to micro-manage it at one stack just to perform adequately once these changes go live, to ignore the crash effects.

Building Super Strength around its own special version of Build Up was a mistake, but the people who love stacking it twice and even three times are shouting "but muh cottage rule" and insisting we cannot change Rage in any way, beyond what's already been done. The proposed changes don't feel good to use. As far as I'm concerned it's just an incomplete fix. Rage and the set as a whole need to be looked at.

[Demon Shell]

2 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

The problem with this idea, which I've mentioned this waaaay back in the other Rage thread back in the suggestion forum, is that it makes people believe that Jab/Punch/Haymaker are all under-performing.  I keep seeing this particular line repeated from one poster after another poster.

 

They're not.

 

Both Punch and Haymaker are basically the EXACT same powers as Stone Fist and Stone Mallet with a slight reduction in DPA compared to those two powers.  And, in my humble opinion, the DPA difference is slight enough to not even matter in the grand scheme of things.

Jab has a 2 second cooldown. That's the problem. The other pools with 4 and 8 second recharge abilities (of which there are several) don't have a 2 second cooldown blocking you from picking the better moves until later (or starting with them). Which creates this issue you've decided doesn't matter:

 

9 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

 (The actual order you get the powers means absolutely jack in this context.)

And yes it does. It changes what moves you have available, making pre-Rage SS even more painful. You could take Jab out of SS, move everything up a tier, replace it with nothing (so SS only has 8 moves instead of 9), and it would result in a better set than it is now with Jab, because at least then a Tanker would get Rage at 20 instead of 28.

 

Realistically, you can up the cooldowns of each of the 3 first abilities to bring them in line with the other melee sets, you can do the same thing but also turn Haymaker into a cone, or you can turn Jab into a Parry-like, though that last one that would require moving Jab further down the tier list (Titan Weapon is the only set with a T1 Parry-like, and that's because Defensive Sweep is its only 3-4 second cooldown ability, everything else is higher). It doesn't matter to me which happens; they all carry the same effect of removing the 2 second recharge power and placing a 3-4 and 5-9 power in the T1 and 2 spots, while giving a use to the third power (a parry-like, a cone, a mid-range ST, whatever).

 

.

 

None of that has anything to do with the Hand Clap discussion, which only comes into play if Rage no longer stacks. As long as Rage stacks, the set doesn't need anything. Jab alone becomes almost as strong as the 4 second recharge move of most sets with their short build up active, and everything else SS has just goes up from there. If Rage stacking is removed then SS's DPS is average, has only one AoE, and at best half as many chances to proc Gaussian as other sets (so not just average DPS, but less chances to burst). It could use some small measure to bring it up, and Hand Clap would be an excellent candidate to do that with (since at end game a massive damage-less knockback that either scatters everything or has to be kb2kd'd, coupled with a mag 2 stun, is not a very good move (doubly so on a set with only one AoE)).

[JCMcBoo]

5 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

Wait what? Parry-like powers don't stack on Tankers? That's messed up.

 

 I can only speak for Divine Avalanche but yeah, 2 recharge SOs in DA will get your tanker to the point where they can keep the defense buff up continually as long as you use it just about every time it recharges. I have a Katana/SR brute and I am able to 3 stack DA for a short period of time and I had a similar experience with a Katana/SR scrapper when the game was live.

[Teirusu]

21 minutes ago, Demon Shell said:

.............

 

And yes it does. It changes what moves you have available, making pre-Rage SS even more painful. You could take Jab out of SS, move everything up a tier, replace it with nothing (so SS only has 8 moves instead of 9), and it would result in a better set than it is now with Jab, because at least then a Tanker would get Rage at 20 instead of 28.

 

Realistically, you can up the cooldowns of each of the 3 first abilities to bring them in line with the other melee sets, you can do the same thing but also turn Haymaker into a cone, or you can turn Jab into a Parry-like, though that last one that would require moving Jab further down the tier list (Titan Weapon is the only set with a T1 Parry-like, and that's because Defensive Sweep is its only 3-4 second cooldown ability, everything else is higher). It doesn't matter to me which happens; they all carry the same effect of removing the 2 second recharge power and placing a 3-4 and 5-9 power in the T1 and 2 spots, while giving a use to the third power (a parry-like, a cone, a mid-range ST, whatever).

 

.

 

None of that has anything to do with the Hand Clap discussion, which only comes into play if Rage no longer stacks. As long as Rage stacks, the set doesn't need anything. Jab alone becomes almost as strong as the 4 second recharge move of most sets with their short build up active, and everything else SS has just goes up from there. If Rage stacking is removed then SS's DPS is average, has only one AoE, and at best half as many chances to proc Gaussian as other sets (so not just average DPS, but less chances to burst). It could use some small measure to bring it up, and Hand Clap would be an excellent candidate to do that with (since at end game a massive damage-less knockback that either scatters everything or has to be kb2kd'd, coupled with a mag 2 stun, is not a very good move (doubly so on a set with only one AoE)).

(The actual order you get the powers means absolutely jack in this context.)

 

You skipped over this bit at the end.  The context being your attack chain itself.  The order and their strength doesn't really matter once you get them all.  Just because Jab is bad doesn't mean that Punch and Haymaker are also bad.  I'm pointing out that people keep assuming that Punch and Haymaker were also reduced in comparison to other sets, which isn't true.  As you pointed out yourself, plenty of melee sets have 4 and 8 second powers.  SS has these, it just doesn't have a 12 second cooldown power which Jab basically has taken the spot in the set.

 

Once you get into a decent high-end build, Foot Stomp basically fills in for that 12 second cooldown power, to a decent degree, as it does 2/3rds the damage and the cast time is fast enough.

 

That is the context.

 

Otherwise, I'm in complete agreement with you that the actual order of the powers, and the fact that Jab is just a complete waste of a power slot, makes a huuuge difference in leveling, especially for Tankers.  Forcing you to take the worthless power and pushing the others back.  Still, what you suggest doing to all 3 of the base ST powers, would certainly mean that they'd have to remove Rage stacking all together and just make it build-up.  I'm not technically against that myself and I agree with Captain Citadel that it's annoying needing to have a power that you always need to have running just to be on-par.  I'm guessing the previous Devs realized this which is why many of the newer sets have combo abilities instead.

 

As for Hand Clap.. well, Fault.  Functionally, these are very similar powers.  In actual use, Fault is clearly better.  But, if you're going to suggest that Hand Clap needs damage then we might as well be doing the same for Fault.  After all, Stone Melee has one AOE power and it's worse then Foot Stomp and the set only has Build Up.  Now, I certainly feel like both sets can use more AOE for sure but, even if Rage didn't stack, I wouldn't say that's the reason to add more AOE.  Even with a single stack of Rage, SS w/Foot Stomp is still a mile ahead of a set like Stone Melee in terms of AOE ability.  Lets also note that SS and Stone Melee aren't the only sets with only 1 AOE power or poor AOE ability, so they are not necessarily out-liners.

 

But, if they did give damage to Hand Clap, that would be great.  I'm not really against that, it's just that I would personally find it better if they gave the extra AOE damage to Hurl.  I'm far more lightly to take that over Hand Clap because having at least one ranged attack power is handy and it gives you one more place to slot a purple set.  Technically, you can say the same for Hand Clap, but then you're wanting to try and cram both stun and damage into it.  But, I guess in the end, it's technically a toss-up.

 

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Teirusu said:

 

But, if they did give damage to Hand Clap, that would be great.  I'm not really against that, it's just that I would personally find it better if they gave the extra AOE damage to Hurl. 

If Hurl had an AoE component, I would pick that thing up the moment that it was available.

[Shadowsleuth]

Rage should be single stack so that other powers in the set can be adjusted.

 

Hurl should definitely have an AoE, & having Haymaker be able to hit 3 to 5 targets would go a long way toward giving it that Super Strength feel.

 

And the same way that Martial Arts has alternate animations replacing the kicks with punches I would love an alternate for Footstomp (Footstomp would remain available for anyone who prefers it) where you cause the same effect by punching the ground; call it "Planet Cracker" or "Worldbreaker" Punch.
 

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Shadowsleuth said:

Rage should be single stack so that other powers in the set can be adjusted.

 

Hurl should definitely have an AoE, & having Haymaker be able to hit 3 to 5 targets would go a long way toward giving it that Super Strength feel.

 

And the same way that Martial Arts has alternate animations replacing the kicks with punches I would love an alternate for Footstomp (Footstomp would remain available for anyone who prefers it) where you cause the same effect by punching the ground; call it "Planet Cracker" or "Worldbreaker" Punch.
 

Footstomp does have a Fist Smash the ground alternate already.

[Shadowsleuth]

I completely missed that, that's fantastic. Thanks.

[Cawshun]

13 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

Rage is a required power, whereas Build Up is not required in every other set.

There's nothing wrong with a power being important to a kit. Look at Staff Mastery, which is Staff's replacement for Build Up. Staff's kit is completely designed around it and if you didn't take it the set would be clunky and weak. It's more required for staff than rage is for SS yet it's not a problem. 

 

13 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

I don't want to micro-manage it at one stack just to perform adequately once these changes go live, to ignore the crash effects.

Managing cooldowns/buffs is not really unique to SS, there are plenty of kits in the game that have cooldowns they need to pop every 1-2 minutes. If you feel it's that much of a hassle, maybe consider that SS isn't for you. There are 22 other options to pick from. I'm not trying to be rude or anything by that, but sets are designed to offer different and unique play styles from each other. There are kits in the game that I don't like mechanics of, but that doesn't mean that the devs made mistakes when designing them and they need a rework.

 

14 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

Building Super Strength around its own special version of Build Up was a mistake, but the people who love stacking it twice and even three times are shouting "but muh cottage rule" and insisting we cannot change Rage in any way, beyond what's already been done.

I think it's an interesting and unique mechanic as it is, but I'm not going to say it couldn't be changed at all. The main thing about a rework or rage would be to keep SS relatively at the same level it's currently at if not slightly lower.

A take on rage could be to make it similar to offensive adaptation and Assault Radial. Basically make it add a % of damage done to each attack as smashing damage. Currently the only real issue I have with rage is that in a group setting with lots of +dmg buffs, SS will hit the cap before other kits because of its massive +160% with two stacks. Granted with the current balance, it still performs well above average, so the % smashing damage would have to be carefully considered. 

[Golden Azrael]

6 hours ago, Shadowsleuth said:

Rage should be single stack so that other powers in the set can be adjusted.

 

Hurl should definitely have an AoE, & having Haymaker be able to hit 3 to 5 targets would go a long way toward giving it that Super Strength feel.

 

And the same way that Martial Arts has alternate animations replacing the kicks with punches I would love an alternate for Footstomp (Footstomp would remain available for anyone who prefers it) where you cause the same effect by punching the ground; call it "Planet Cracker" or "Worldbreaker" Punch.
 

I think those are good suggestions!

 

Rage single stack would solve a lot of the debate.  (And having the other so-so melee sets of Ice/Stone and Energy with their 'version' of it would by phase 2 of lifting tanks out of the doldrums.

 

Hurl having AoE with 3-5 mob knock back would be great and would make it more fun and give it a real taunt element to it.  A much more SS feel as you say.

 

As for a World Breaker punch?  Just give Hand Clap (a power I like...) at least the damage of Foot Stomp and SS all of a sudden becomes a far more compelling set.

 

Give Haymaker a 3-5 targets would give it far more of a SS feel.

 

And I'd boost the damage numbers on Jab and Punch (giving it haymaker's single target knockdown.)

 

There's lots that can be done (see above) to SS to transform it from a 'so-so' set to something which hinges on Rage and KO punch to give it that oomph factor.

 

It would also set the stage for other melee sets like Ice (please, no jokes...) and Energy Melee to capture some glory and gather some former glory in the latter's case.  Tanks are slow.  So I've no problem with them hitting hard, doing knock up, down or flying.  They're the Supermans and Hulks.  We know what happens in the comics.  With a little bit of tweaking and some imagination and just using what the game already has in it's mechanics the next gen fun factor can be brought into re-birthing this rebirth of CoH.

 

Azrael.

[Bossk_Hogg]

20 hours ago, Vanden said:

Not true at all. Adding effects to powers, like making Jab a defensive power or letting it keep Bruising, like I suggested earlier in the thread, or making Hand Clap do damage wouldn’t violate the cottage rule. It’s when you take away effects from powers that you’re violating it, like removing the KB from Hand Clap or making it only a cone.

That isnt even the cottage rule. The "rule" was to keep whole sets from drifting, not individual powers. Plus they previously DID remove KB from a bunch of melee powers and turned it into KD instead. Except they forgot to do it for Solar Flare for PB's (pleaseohplease).

 

One thing to consider is changing the sets a power can take. I like the idea of hurl having splash damage, but they should probably allow it to slot both ranged single target and targeted AE sets, so people don't have to redo their build if they want to keep the ranged set in there. Same if Haymaker became a small cone. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Vanden]

29 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

That isnt even the cottage rule. The "rule" was to keep whole sets from drifting, not individual powers. Plus they previously DID remove KB from a bunch of melee powers and turned it into KD instead. Except they forgot to do it for Solar Flare for PB's (pleaseohplease).

The purpose of the rule is to keep whole sets from drifting, but it's done by not changing the core functionality of individual powers.

[Captain Citadel]

19 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The purpose of the rule is to keep whole sets from drifting, but it's done by not changing the core functionality of individual powers.

By this logic it seems there's very little we can be permitted to do in order to fix the problem of Super Strength being designed around Rage, I think "violating the cottage rule" would realistically involve actually breaking the theme of Super Strength and what the powers do, whereas changing the way Rage interacts with the set doesn't actually constitute such a violation. The old devs also acknowledged the cottage rule could be broken if it was necessary, and it's not like they were infallible.

[William Valence]

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

That isnt even the cottage rule. The "rule" was to keep whole sets from drifting, not individual powers. Plus they previously DID remove KB from a bunch of melee powers and turned it into KD instead. Except they forgot to do it for Solar Flare for PB's (pleaseohplease).

The rule was to allow players to have consistency in expectations toward what their powers do.

 

It was the prevailing design theory that there should be consistency, and players should be able to trust that the powers they use do the same thing day in and day out. The result keeps powersets from drifting, but the rule is very individual power specific.

 

Quote

Seriously, it *is* a good policy -- it provides structure within which to do things. Without structure, there's chaos. How would you like it if tomorrow you logged in and, say, Build Up now built a small cottage at your chosen location, instead of adding to your damage?

The quote, in context, was referencing changing a specific power in Ice melee IIRC. Not to keep ice melee from drifting, but because it's unnecessary to change the core function of the power in question to do what he wanted at the time. The example castle gave was power-centric (build up) not powerset-centric.

 

And there's a lot that can be done in that philosophy, and I haven't really see anything that shows that @Captain Powerhouse intends to stray from the consistency focused design style. I may not like tankers being pushed more offensively, but that doesn't violate the cottage rule or consistency of effect of their powers, it's a pure tuning thing. It's a me problem not a CoX design style problem.

 

Rage is better single and double stacked, than before, unless you were either able to ignore the crash by having large amounts of resists rather than, or on top of, defense. It preserves both types of play, makes single stack more viable, and makes it so that the crash applies properly without regard to the defense set you choose. It could be made a toggle, and it would still be a power that when used, adds to your damage. But it's a creative change that preserves and improves what exists without having to make sweeping design changes.

 

The opposite of a "Cottage Rule" design philosophy would be in a game like League of Legends where the core functionality of powers and items change patch to patch. There are likely other servers which will approach design and balance in this way, and I think it will be scary to see how ugly it ends up.

[HelenCarnate]

If you really want to make a decent tweak to the set, increase the recharge on Jab to 3 seconds along with corresponding end costs and damage (I like 4 but 3 would still be a decent improvement).  Then increase Punch to 6 seconds so basically it would mirror damage and recharge of Ice Melee for the first 2 attacks.  Then give Hurl the reduced animation time that was given to Doms.  Rage changes are fine as is as long as it does not apply the weakened status incorrectly. 

[FUBARczar]

On 10/10/2019 at 10:37 PM, JCMcBoo said:

I am still down with the suggestion to remove stacking altogether and just restart the clock each time that Rage is reactivated. This kind of behavior already exists for the tanker version of Divine Avalanche as opposed to brute and scrapper versions. You could possibly add a slight debuff to accuracy and endurance recovery while Rage is active as a downside. Thematically the fact that you are in a rage means that you are just lashing out wildly with everything you have.

This is one thing I am talking about.  Rename the stupid power!  The name makes people only think of power in terms of the narrowness of the name and not think of it as an aspect of Super Strength, as it it's on all the time, because the strength is inherent or whatever.   

 

Call it "Unleashed" or "No Holding Back" or "Unrestrained" because some one w/ SS would constantly be having to restrain themselves in their world, so they don't break things, or hurt people, etc.

[FUBARczar]

On 10/10/2019 at 9:18 PM, Vanden said:

Giving Hand Clap some damage is a non-starter, because with its recharge the damage formula would dictate that it be stronger than Foot Stomp. And making it a cone or taking out the KB would violate the cottage rule.

Of course you wouldn't just add damage, you'd tweak it accordingly, end costs, recharge etc.   I thought that went with out saying, but apparently not.  

 

A better response might be something like, "That would work if you change x and y."  Or "even if you change x and y to give result z, it's not god because....."  

 

assume the best not the worst

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by FUBARczar

[FUBARczar]

Making Haymaker into a Cross Punch clone, meh ok whatever, but I'd take either...

 

Adding splash damage to Hurl with Dom animation

---or

fixing Hand Clap into an appropriately usable damage power, and giving hurl the Dom animation

---or

all of the above

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Of course you wouldn't just add damage, you'd tweak it accordingly, end costs, recharge etc.   I thought that went with out saying, but apparently not.  

 

A better response might be something like, "That would work if you change x and y."  Or "even if you change x and y to give result z, it's not god because....."  

 

assume the best not the worst

 

Also, changes only violate the “Cottage Rule” when Captain Powerhouse says that they do, since he’s the actual Homecoming Dev.

[Peerless Girl]

Personally I'd rather see Rage either not stack/only run a single stack/be made into a toggle. OR leave Rage as is AND provide a mutually exclusive "passive buff" ("Superman-style") that doesn't require the "management". I realize CPH doesn't really want to use that "hack" anymore, but I'd rather have a power that frankly doesn't "tempt me" to "overuse it" (and doesn't require me to micromanage it/use up my auto power on it), BUT doesn't destroy the ability of those who want to play with stacking and crashing it the ability to do so, but means *I* don't have to. That's just my two cents on it, having been an Inv/SS tank for 7-8 years.

[Rinswind]

On 9/10/2019 at 8:10 PM, johua said:

Honest question: why does it need to be punishing to any builds?

Super strength has three (arguably four) good powers in it and I doubt it would be the GOAT if you just straight-up removed the crash, especially in a world where Titan Weapons exists and doesn't have any punishments attached to it.

Exactly this. Rage having a crash at all, when Titan Weapons exists, is just laughable honestly. This whole debate about how hard it should crash etc is just bewildering to me. It should not crash at all, even with double stacked Rage it's not reaching the potency of the other, better sets as it is. 

 

If anything at all then, I'd prefer to have it only stackable once with no crash whatsoever so you can just use it off cooldown without having to worry about accidentally double stacking it which is honestly a ludicrous situation to have exist. IF it has to crash at all , 2 stacks or not, this should be a damage ONLY crash, why the heck is it crashing survivability stats so harshly, so unnecessary and counter intuitive to it being a tanker set. 

 

I also agree Hand Clap needs to do some damage so it can have greater access to IO sets and give the set a much needed extra AoE. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rinswind

[Sniktch]

9 hours ago, Rinswind said:

when Titan Weapons exists

The error in your logic is trying to use Titan Weapons as a balance point, instead of a drastic outlier.

 

To reverse your logic, what business does Super Strength have being so 'strong' when Energy Melee exists?

 

Answer: Energy Melee is a drastic outlier, and should not be used as a balance comparison until it's brought up to a reasonable level.  Similarly, Titan is a drastic outlier, and should not be used as a balance comparison until it's brought down to a reasonable level.