Scrapper or Brute?

[Lost Ninja]

On live (I started with EU Launch) I played two Scrappers up to 50 (DM/Rgn, Claws/WP) and another into the mid 40s (BS/??). And while I tried to play and like Brutes my highest by the time I stopped playing regularly around i15 was only mid 30s.

 

Now I'm back and I cannot understand why I bothered with Scrappers beyond the first one (pre CoV), Brutes just seem more useful. The other Cov ATs seem to have their own play style, which doesn't really mimic CoH ATs so much. So I was wondering with the game as it is ignoring specific power sets (assuming that there is any difference between the two, I haven't checked) is there some redeeming feature to Scrappers that I'm missing?

 

I'm not trying to start an argument, but short of levelling one of each to 30+ (which if I can ever work out how to get onto the beta server I might do) and giving them a good work out I'm unlikely to see where each shines now.

[macskull]

Scrappers have a higher base damage and crit ability. A Brute at its damage cap will do slightly less damage than a Scrapper but in the absence of lots and lots of external buffs the damage disparity is larger.

 

EDIT: Bit more info - Brute will do better at holding aggro and is more survivable, all other things being equal. Brutes are better in farming situations because if you're at or near the damage cap on both the Brute will still be roughly 1.5x more survivable just based on the difference in resistance caps.

Edited September 16, 2019 by macskull

[TraumaTrain]

Personally, and I have not run the numbers and made studies of it as some folks do, I prefer the scrapper crit ability over the brute fury ability.

 

Depending on character concept, I'll choose whichever one fits best.

[Haijinx]

Could say the same about Stalkers 

 

With newer primaries and the right secondary, they can basically do what a scrapper can, but do more damage. 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

If I want a character that runs from mob to mob frantically spewing damage left and right, I'll pick a brute.

 

If I want a character that is a little more thoughtful and strategic, I'll pick a scrapper.

 

If I want pure strategy, I'll pick a stalker.

 

And if I want a walk in the park while picking daisies, and beat up some bad guys at the same time while enjoying the scenery, I'll pick a tank.

 

[MunkiLord]

Brutes and their fury mechanic is a lesser version of Scrapperlock. For my tastes the only advantage Brutes have is more taunt auras. 

 

Taunt auras can be a significant advantage too, it can keep mobs packed tightly together for powers like Burn. 

[Oubliette_Red]

Yes,

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Could say the same about Stalkers 

 

With newer primaries and the right secondary, they can basically do what a scrapper can, but do more damage. 

 

Sort of - they give up some AoE ability to get there though.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

Sort of - they give up some AoE ability to get there though.

Not on the new primaries 

 

Staff Fighting, StJ, Savage Melee, etc all have the same AOE as Scrapper 

[Zepp]

There are too many Brutes, so play a Scrapper... (unless you want to play Super Strength, Stone Melee, or Energy Melee [only available on Brutes of the two])

[Lost Ninja]

That was just the sort of thing I was looking at. Thank you all for the replies. 🙂

[Without_Pause]

A SJ stalker fired the scrapper AT for me more than any brute has, and brutes have been my favorite AT for some time.

[nihilii]

It used to be somewhat hard to justify scrappers over brutes. With the new IOs (and the sum of all IOs), the game has changed.

Critical Strikes and Gaussian BU give scrappers incredible burst damage ability.
Shield Wall, Reactive Defense and brute ATO set bonuses give brutes a good shot at making use of their resistance caps (as previously mentioned, it's a significant increase of survivability - 2.5x rather than 1.5x, even, as if you have 75% res you take 1/4 of the damage, while at 90% res you take 1/10 of it).

 

I really like where both ATs sit right now. It's only a little bothersome some scrapper secondaries get taunt auras and some don't - especially as the top performance secondary comes with a taunt aura. There's more variance in performance between individual scrapper choices, whereas brutes are probably better balanced as a whole.

[dmaker]

My main is a MA/WP Brute. He has ATOs and almost all incarnates at tier 4. I can stand around in a +4x8 S/L farm and not take a scratch. He's very durable. Out of curiosity, I created a MA/WP Scrapper as his sidekick to take out on missions and two box eventually. The Scrapper is now vet level 12 and incarnates are tier 3 and almost enough for tier4 alpha. Just need a few more threads and emps. 

 

Anecdotally, I have found that the Brute is less squishy--I never have to glance at my hp or end bar, ever. I may have made a mistake in taking cardiac as my alpha. I think my endurance would be fine without it ( I do have ageless) and will likely switch to musclature when I farm enough incarnate salvage to make that switch. But given both toons at approx the same capability levels, the Brute is very tanky feeling and the scrapper is a bit less so.  I still need to keep an eye on my hp bar when doing +4x8 on the scrapper, but it's not really squishy in S/L farms. I still have 3 attacks that need to be slotted with purples, just running generic crafted IOs in there as I gather up the influence, so the set bonuses will close some of that def/res gap I see with the Brute. 

 

My prediction is that by the time all powers are slotted with purples, like the Brute, there will not be much difference in the two other than the Brute will feel a bit sturdier, but the Scrapper will have much better single target damage making it easier to clean up EBs on farm maps. That is always kind of a pain with a Brute. The Scrapper melts through things faster than the Brute. 

 

I am also doing the Maria Jenkins (name may be wrong) PI missions where you go around around and take out named mobs. It feels like it's going faster with the Scrapper than it did the Brute. 

 

End game, fully pimped out, I think the Scrapper may be a better choice (at least for MA/WP) as your single target damage will be way better. 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by dmaker

[DR_Mechano]

I will point out that the Scrapper ATO uniques, much like the stalker ATOs do for that AT, probably take a scrapper into higher damage numbers due to higher chance to crit and periods of high crit. The Brute ATOs, while useful, aren't nearly as game changing in my opinion but that could be my main brute is SS/Invuln and with its one PBAoE taken up by Superior Avalance, meaning I can't put the +fury or the +end discount/regen into an AoE where they would get the most bang for their buck. 

[dmaker]

The two scrapper ATOs were the first I slotted as I farmed enough inf. I have them in my first two, fast acting, attacks. The added crit is very nice. 

 

 

EDIT: On a side note, what do you feel would be the best set to put in Dragon's Tail on a Scrapper? As mentioned, I already have the two uniques in more fast acting attacks to get the proc more often. I think I have one or two Armageddon in there right now as I was lucky and got a couple as recipe drops. 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by dmaker

[Sailboat]

2 hours ago, dmaker said:

The two scrapper ATOs were the first I slotted as I farmed enough inf. I have them in my first two, fast acting, attacks. The added crit is very nice.

When you say "the two," you are referring to Scrapper's Strike +crit chance and...?

[dmaker]

The two being Superior Critical Strikes:Recharge/+ 50% Critical Hit Chance Proc  ...and Superior Scrapper Strikes: Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by dmaker

[Sailboat]

Aha, is that something that post-dates Paragonwiki?

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scrapper's_Strike

 

[dmaker]

Sorry, I have no idea. I just do /ah and look for the two Archetype for whatever AT I am playing and then start saving for the two superior versions. Those are the two superior ones available for Scrappers. 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by dmaker

[Murcielago]

It depends

What your playstyle is like

What you prefer

What primary you're choosing

What secondary you're choosing

But ultimately just pick one and try it out. If you don't like it, re-roll it and play it as the other AT. Or just log into Justin Pineapple and try out both without much time invested.  

 

 

[DR_Mechano]

2 hours ago, Sailboat said:

Aha, is that something that post-dates Paragonwiki?

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scrapper's_Strike

 

IIRC the second set of ATOs were up on the beta store when the game got shutdown, thus they were never implemented into the live game but were all ready to go and thus included on HC. The two scrapper ATOs are a buff to your crit chance by 2% for all your attacks (it helps a lot more than you'd think) and the other being that the attack you slotted it into has a chance to proc 50% crit chance for I think 5 seconds.

Edited September 16, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[macskull]

5 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

IIRC the second set of ATOs were up on the beta store when the game got shutdown, thus they were never implemented into the live game but were all ready to go and thus included on HC. The two scrapper ATOs are a buff to your crit chance by 2% for all your attacks (it helps a lot more than you'd think) and the other being that the attack you slotted it into has a chance to proc 50% crit chance for I think 5 seconds.

The first one is 3% for players, lieutenants, and minions, and 6% for anything higher (assuming you slot the catalyzed version).

[Radiaria]

End-game I'll be honest it depends on what you're trying to do but generally speaking...

 

A brute will be vastly superior to a Scrapper in any AOE farming type situation and general PvE really. Brutes survive better and have inherent taunts and are just going to keep mobs glued on you much better. This is what really makes brute shine, and it's really not hard to build fury at all... Especially if your secondary has some sort of damage aura, then it's just pathetically easy. Scrappers do not have this advantage, left at their base damage and no outside buffs it is much harder for a scrapper to retain consistent damage than it is for a Brute. This really does add up in PvE and unfortunately makes me give Scrappers the side eye except...

 

Scrappers are the bridge between Brute and Stalker. Scrapper's single target is vastly superior to Brutes, there is absolutely no contest to this one. Although a Scrapper will typically lag behind a Stalker due to how much more often a Stalker can land "big hits" more consistently, Stalkers do in most cases take a loss on their AOEs to account for that. 

 

At the very end though, with incarnate abilities and Longbow Lore and Degen Core, a Brute's single target damage will be absolutely fine and can do everything a Scrapper really could and they'll have much better AOE advantages with taunts and can tank better. Keep in mind, this is at the END GAME, this is not 1-50. 1-50 this is a lot different, this is where a Scrapper will have a significant advantage over the Brute that is worth considering. 

 

There's pros and cons to both, I prefer Brutes over Scrappers *most* of the time. There are exceptions where I feel a Scrapper is an extremely viable and great way to go (TW/Bio!) and gains much more out of itself than the Brute variant, but generally, Brutes gain far more out of resistance sets than defense ones, and because of this, they will universally survive better along with their health cap making a huge difference in their survivability. 

 

The key factor to me is Burn being right now the best AOE (for consistency - yes Inferno and Blaster T9's are great but 120+ second cooldowns are NOT reliable mob-to-mob) in the game currently. Brutes can use their auras to automatically taunt enemies into it and not run away and this makes Brutes as a whole *vastly* more attractive to me than a Blaster/Scrapper variant where they'd run away.