Favorite Tank for non tanks

[MunkiLord]

23 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Pretty close to the same thing. If I dictate it, and yet, my pace is too slow for you..that is ok, because I dictated it, not set it? Also, you used 'dictate' twice then, so it IS teh same thing. You mean if their pace doesnt match yours.

 

Dictate as in tell the team what to do. Tanks that do that are a waste of time.

23 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Also impossible with aggro caps. Which is why I mentioned too many mobs. A tank (or meat shield) who pauses on entering a big room, yells HERDING then grabs two mobs and does a nice corner herd is in no way wasting time. Sure, maybe you (the non herder) is standing around for all of 15 secs, (thats about how long it will be) which also gives all those nice aoe powers and controls, buffs, debuffs time to get ready..but when those two mobs just melt at once..THAT is saving more time then wiping one mob with every power you have..then having no BU/aoes/long rech debuffs etc etc ready when you jump into MoB2.

Or both the mobs could be wiped by the time they are gathered together. But that is team dependent, so it can vary wildly. Either way waiting on herding is boring. Especially if it's done frequently. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by MunkiLord

[TheOtherTed]

40 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Wait, so the tank, the guy who SHOULD be in every mob first (aside from maybe a stalker)..is doing it wrong if he sets the pace? Color me confused by that one. Nothing else is better than taking an alpha strike and leaving every other AT to debuff, control or blast things in relative safety.

Thing is, this is one of very few games where debuffs, controls, and blasts can significantly disrupt the alpha so that nobody has to actually take it (hence my previous comment about Dark defenders being the best tanks).  This game also allows the team to divvy up aggro, so long as the players have a pretty good sense of what their characters can (and cannot) do.

 

When I teamed regularly on live, I found that teams did better when players were allowed to play to their strengths.  My three rules whenever I had the star were 1) stick together (except maybe Brutes), 2) watch each others' backs, and 3) take what you want but eat what you take.  Those rules were almost always enough - tank or no tank, the team would generally find a way to synergize and get the job done.

[Heraclea]

One of the chief glories of the game is that most of the content does not force the kinds of catherding encounter mechanics that are routine in other MMOs.  I absolutely do not enjoy that crap, which is why the appeal of most other MMOs fades for me after a while.  And this makes every team different, as is every player's self-conception of their role on it. 

 

I do try to set the pace, but I tend to be rather conservative, especially if that last mob from the spawn is a boss (and it usually is).  I try to make sure that I have its attention before moving on to another spawn.  This means that it often happens that someone else targets a different spawn, and I have to react.  I do try to keep an eye out for teammates health bars and try to figure out what's going on if someone's is dropping.  In the fog of effects, this is often not easy.  And there are some rooms and intersections that invite teams to aggro well over the target cap.  I run around headless chicken style and do what I can to bring things under control. 

 

And it makes me happy that the situations you confront as a tanker are so varied and situational.  I way prefer this over the multi-phase boss encounters in other MMOs where everyone has a precise role to play and all must do it exactly right if the encounter will succeed.  And if you are standing out of place by even a little you aggro the whelps and wipe the raid.  That is not fun for me.  It makes communities elitist and prissy as well: and uninviting to newcomers, who need all that crap explained several times before they learn it.  The sloppy zerging of CoH is much more relaxing and much more forgiving.  It makes the game better in more ways than one. 

[Razor Cure]

12 minutes ago, TheOtherTed said:

When I teamed regularly on live, I found that teams did better when players were allowed to play to their strengths.  My three rules whenever I had the star were 1) stick together (except maybe Brutes), 2) watch each others' backs, and 3) take what you want but eat what you take.  Those rules were almost always enough - tank or no tank, the team would generally find a way to synergize and get the job done.

Totally agree with this. But even so, tanks still ARE the best at taking an alpha. Taking it. Using hard controls or debuffs is technically mitigating the alpha strike, not taking it on the chin.

 

35 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Dictate as in tell the team what to do. Tanks that do that are a waste of time.

All depends on what teh team is or is not doing. If they are aggroing everything, team wiping..then the tank laying down some guidelines is totally not a waste of time (or any other AT doing the same thing).

 

7 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

One of the chief glories of the game is that most of the content does not force the kinds of catherding encounter mechanics that are routine in other MMOs. 

It sure doesnt. But that does not suddenly mean that herding cant be fast and efficient. I mean, to use an extreme example. Look at Farms. At least melee ones. You dont just attack a few at a time, you gather as many as you can and aoe them to bits.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Razor Cure

[MunkiLord]

6 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

All depends on what teh team is or is not doing. If they are aggroing everything, team wiping..then the tank laying down some guidelines is totally not a waste of time (or any other AT doing the same thing).

Yes, there are exceptions. I fully accept that what I want isn't always best for a particular team/mission/leader/etc.

[Heraclea]

14 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

It sure doesnt. But that does not suddenly mean that herding cant be fast and efficent. I mean, to sue an extreme example. Look at Farms. At least melee ones. You dont just attack a few at a time, you gather as many as you can and aoe them to bits.

Probably the wrong metaphor for the conversation.  By 'catherding' I mean the sort of thing you encounter in other MMOs: 'In phase 1 everybody should be at the dragon's head.  In phase 2 everyone runs to the tail.  But when the dragon uses Breath of Doom, everybody run to the walls and stay as far from anyone else as possible.'  The sort of thing that sends people to immersion breaking VOIP live chat to make sure everyone is on the same page.  Getting a group of 12 or 24 strangers to follow these instructions is like herding cats. 

 

They make lovely and interesting worlds and lore.  You want to engage with it creatively, and give your character a persona in the game world, and a history that flows in part from the character's interaction with the world.  Then they go and cack all over it with these fussy mechanics that reduce your characters to chess pieces.  It makes me a little bit angry just to remember it. 

[TheOtherTed]

7 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Totally agree with this. But even so, tanks still ARE the best at taking an alpha. Taking it. Using hard controls or debuffs is technically mitigating the alpha strike, not taking it on the chin.

My other point still remains, though - "taking it on the chin" is not the only way, nor even the one true way, to mitigate the alpha strike in this game.  Many other MMOs are designed that way (too many, IMO); this one isn't.

 

I'm glad to see, however, that you acknowledge that the tank does not have a natural monopoly on leading the team.

[Eva Destruction]

8 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

All depends on what teh team is or is not doing. If they are aggroing everything, team wiping..then the tank laying down some guidelines is totally not a waste of time (or any other AT doing the same thing).

On the other hand, if they are aggroing everything and not wiping (which is how a lot of teams run these days,) then a tank that tells them to stop is a dictator tank that I don't want to team with.

[ZeeHero]

Any well IOed tanker is a god. I'm especially a fan of invulnerability though.

[Oubliette_Red]

As a non-Tanker, my favourite Tank is a Brute...

 

<.<

 

>.>

 

 

[Zepp]

Trollers then Tankers... although Tankers then Trollers for most AVs... Defenders are often really good to have, but their role is quite different from damage mitigation (most of the time)... Doms and Brutes can also be quite good, but they tend to be more damage focused and not as much team players...

[DSorrow]

My favorite tank is the one with common sense and some flexibility. Some teams have so many buffs that a tank isn't even needed so it's great if the tank doesn't have an ego too big to accept that, and other times you might need to herd/pull just a bit if aggroing two mobs poses a risk to the team.

[MunkiLord]

3 hours ago, DSorrow said:

My favorite tank is the one with common sense and some flexibility. Some teams have so many buffs that a tank isn't even needed so it's great if the tank doesn't have an ego too big to accept that, and other times you might need to herd/pull just a bit if aggroing two mobs poses a risk to the team.

Ego is key here. Fact is in most situations in the game every player is easily replaceable as it relates to beating up enemies, this includes me. People that don't recognize that and think their contribution is essential to winning an encounter quite often like to let others know. Those people are lame.

[Myrmidon]

On 9/21/2019 at 12:37 AM, Luminara said:

Someone on the original forums started a thread, asking what the worst powerset combinations could be.  A lot of people suggested Rad/Energy (defender), because all of the knockback would make Rad's debuffs pointless.  So, of course, I had to make one.  Not surprisingly, fun.  I had her up to the high 20's or low 30's and logged in to burn a respec (i forget why), expecting to log out again after running a couple of test missions.  Before I made it to the door of the first mission, I receive a /tell asking for help.  One mission is as good as another for testing out tweaks, so I consented and accepted the subsequent invitation.

 

Turns out to be a full team.  With the difficulty maxed.  When I enter the mission, they're all standing together, near a room they haven't cleared yet.  I peer in... Freakshow.  A whole lot of purple-con Freakshow.  I pop AM, pan the camera around and wait a few seconds with my fingers hovering over the number keys.  And a few more seconds pass.  Then a full minute.  Tick tock, tick tock.  AM expires, I refresh the buff, and still nothing.  Finally, I ask who's tanking.  They don't know.  They're on Vent, trying to decide.  Also trying to decide whether to boot me and go looking for a "healer".

 

Well, that was the end of my patience.  I buff the team again, then run into the room and start unloading with everything I have.  I've got Freaks bouncing and flying all over the place.  By the time the rest of the team realizes I'm not meekly awaiting their decision as to my fate, I've aggroed the entire room and have half of the Freaks pinned in one corner, juggling them with KB, the other half standing on my head with RI on one of the bosses.  The rest of Team Chucklehead finally remembers that I was there, and start coming in to "rescue" me.  Then they notice my full HP bar and actually start attacking.

 

I stayed and helped them finish the mission.  The only deaths were due to the Fire/whocares blaster, the team leader who set the difficulty so high and refused to reduce it in spite of the problems his team had encountered (he was +3 to the next highest level in the team, so everything was at least +6 to everyone else).  He ran ahead of the rest of the team and tried to nuke.  Three times.  Died every time, before his nuke activated.  Then he quit the team and logged out.  And I made seven friends.

 

From then on, my favorite tank has been the one who gets in there and tanks.  My favorite tank is the one who's confident enough to do his/her job without making the team wait ten minutes.  Not brash, not foolhardy, not stupid and reckless, but also not timid.  Let the buffers do their job, then get your ass in there and do yours and I'm happy.

 

As much as I hate KB most of the time in teams, I do love it when a teammate knows how to use it.

[Myrmidon]

On 9/21/2019 at 11:43 PM, Heraclea said:

Probably the wrong metaphor for the conversation.  By 'catherding' I mean the sort of thing you encounter in other MMOs: 'In phase 1 everybody should be at the dragon's head.  In phase 2 everyone runs to the tail.  But when the dragon uses Breath of Doom, everybody run to the walls and stay as far from anyone else as possible.'  The sort of thing that sends people to immersion breaking VOIP live chat to make sure everyone is on the same page.  Getting a group of 12 or 24 strangers to follow these instructions is like herding cats. 

 

They make lovely and interesting worlds and lore.  You want to engage with it creatively, and give your character a persona in the game world, and a history that flows in part from the character's interaction with the world.  Then they go and cack all over it with these fussy mechanics that reduce your characters to chess pieces.  It makes me a little bit angry just to remember it. 

 

Agreed. The only reason that I played Secret World as long as I did was Fusang Projects. I HATE raid mechanics that break immersion, which is why I likely haven’t done any Incarnate raids yet. That garbage should have been pure zone-style Incarnate content.

[Corruption]

My favorite "tank" has become my TW/Bio Scrapper. There's nothing in the game it can't handle. 

 

As far as traditional herding goes, it has become antiquated, especially if the mobs aren't close together. I'd personally rather kill the mobs in the time it takes to herd them. 

[Clave Dark 5]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

Agreed. The only reason that I played Secret World as long as I did was Fusang Projects. I HATE raid mechanics that break immersion, which is why I likely haven’t done any Incarnate raids yet. That garbage should have been pure zone-style Incarnate content.

I avoided all that nonsense before shut down, but have looked into it some and it's OK, just as long as you'r not stuck endlessly grinding it forever and never play anything other than your 50.

[Carnifax]

A triform Warshade or Peacebringer. Especially if I'm playing my Ill / Dark, because I know theyll be hitting 85% resist and I'll be throwing a load of Defense and Regen onto that. Plus they can switch forms and Floaty Death or nuke everything once they see things are quaking in fear and debuffed to hell.

[gameboy1234]

On 9/22/2019 at 5:46 AM, Eva Destruction said:

On the other hand, if they are aggroing everything and not wiping (which is how a lot of teams run these days,) then a tank that tells them to stop is a dictator tank that I don't want to team with.

I disagree with this.  "Not wiping" is too low of a bar.  Lots of teams might not wipe but might be very disorganized and not fun to play.

 

I was on a team as a Corruptor, and the tank (and their two friends) were terrible.  No we didn't wipe, but the tank didn't taunt or pull stragglers.  And the tank did terrible long pulls trying to get the "perfect" herd together while constantly losing stuff that wasn't aggro'd enough.  As damage and buffs for the group, I couldn't do my job.  I was constantly having to reposition to break line of sight (i.e., run away from mobs), I had aggro on me constantly from stragglers, and I couldn't kill anything with AOE because it was all running around hither and yon with no organization. 

 

We didn't die, even once, but it was a terrible group and a terrible tank.  All the while I got told "you're not going to die" when I complained about the aggro so I'm kinda tilted over hearing that used as a standard.  YMMV.

 

[MunkiLord]

31 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I disagree with this.  "Not wiping" is too low of a bar.  Lots of teams might not wipe but might be very disorganized and not fun to play.

 

I was on a team as a Corruptor, and the tank (and their two friends) were terrible.  No we didn't wipe, but the tank didn't taunt or pull stragglers.  And the tank did terrible long pulls trying to get the "perfect" herd together while constantly losing stuff that wasn't aggro'd enough.  As damage and buffs for the group, I couldn't do my job.  I was constantly having to reposition to break line of sight (i.e., run away from mobs), I had aggro on me constantly from stragglers, and I couldn't kill anything with AOE because it was all running around hither and yon with no organization. 

 

We didn't die, even once, but it was a terrible group and a terrible tank.  All the while I got told "you're not going to die" when I complained about the aggro so I'm kinda tilted over hearing that used as a standard.  YMMV.

 

This sound glorious to me! But I recognize not everybody likes such chaos on teams, so I completely understand your POV.

[Charistoph]

On 9/22/2019 at 5:46 AM, Eva Destruction said:

On the other hand, if they are aggroing everything and not wiping (which is how a lot of teams run these days,) then a tank that tells them to stop is a dictator tank that I don't want to team with.

I've tanked some teams like that on WoW.  Most of the time its a Mage that wasn't being considerate of our Healer's Mana bar, which could lead to an easy wipe if they are not careful.  Or in some dungeons they act unaware of the dungeon's mechanics which will pretty much guarantee a wipe if they keep up the antics.  Just because you haven't wiped YET, doesn't mean one won't happen if you're running off half-cocked.  I usually give a couple pulls to knock it off, but if they keep it up, I let them solo the pull and begin ignoring any problems they have at that point.

 

But that's me being the leader of the pace and being aware of the pacing of the dungeon, not being a dictator.  I haven't tanked a CoH team since Homecoming came out as I'm enjoying the process  of experiencing the storylines, but not everyone likes to ride the red zone all the time, either, so it would turn you in to being the dictator in demanding a pace the team may not be comfortable with.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'm considering making a mastermind (I know, right, I HATE masterminds!) as a pure tank.  Followers exist in order to be summoned into aggro, then resummoned to maintain aggro.  I'm not sure how to go about this, since it just feels dirty to me in so many ways.

[DR_Mechano]

3 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm considering making a mastermind (I know, right, I HATE masterminds!) as a pure tank.  Followers exist in order to be summoned into aggro, then resummoned to maintain aggro.  I'm not sure how to go about this, since it just feels dirty to me in so many ways.

Its actually already got a nickname, Tankermind. The idea is that Masterminds share HP with their pets when the pets are set to defense + Follow, thus bodyguard mode. You do all the things you normally do on a Mastermind, pick a defensive focused secondary like say traps with its FFG or Forcefields or a big debuff secondary like Dark or Rad but you actually take the AoE taunt power from the Presence pool and...there we go...you are now a Tankermind!

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

Its actually already got a nickname, Tankermind. The idea is that Masterminds share HP with their pets when the pets are set to defense + Follow, thus bodyguard mode. You do all the things you normally do on a Mastermind, pick a defensive focused secondary like say traps with its FFG or Forcefields or a big debuff secondary like Dark or Rad but you actually take the AoE taunt power from the Presence pool and...there we go...you are now a Tankermind!

Nonono, I don’t want to share HP!  I want to throw orcs into the maws of my enemies.  I don’t care if they live.  I figure it should be a recharge/defense secondary, maybe nature?  I don’t suppose any of the primaries summon faster than the others.

[DR_Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Nonono, I don’t want to share HP!  I want to throw orcs into the maws of my enemies.  I don’t care if they live.  I figure it should be a recharge/defense secondary, maybe nature?  I don’t suppose any of the primaries summon faster than the others.

Sadly no but if you want to go thematic Necromancy suits you to a T, nobody cares about Zombies just keep throwing them in to take the alpha. Infact I think traps has the option to booby trap one of your henchman with a bomb so that when they die, they explode.

 

Yup level 38 Detonator.

"A good Mastermind always plans ahead, but a great one knows when to make a strategic sacrifice. You have equipped all your henchmen with explosives. When the time is right, select a henchman and set off the Detonator. Undead and Robots are easily rigged and will blow up instantly, devastating nearby enemies. Ninjas, Soldiers and other free thinking henchmen will try to place the explosive on the ground and get away. But you know... the fuse is short."

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano