The time has come to fix AoE Holds/Mezzes

[boggo2300]

42 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Now, now, it's so much easier to win an argument against a strawman! You really shouldn't have insulted their intelligence like that. It was totally uncalled for.

 

 

 

(see, isn't it fun making up things people say to argue against, everyone should do it)

You, are truly despicably evil, I heartily approve

[Widower]

Can everyone calm down? Thanks.

[Wavicle]

Controller aoe holds are fine.

It's the AoE controls in the newest Blaster manipulation sets that need to be nerfed.  Ridiculous.

[Haijinx]

41 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

It's the AoE controls in the newest Blaster manipulation sets that need to be nerfed.  Ridiculous.

At the same time their melee attacks are often underpowered compared to the older sets.

 

New sets seem to have direct scrapper ports.  While the old ones had double recharge time with appropriate resulting damage scale.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, sacredlunatic said:

Controller aoe holds are fine.

It's the AoE controls in the newest Blaster manipulation sets that need to be nerfed.  Ridiculous.

 

Probably. I'd set the chance for Stun/Hold to 60% or 75% for those powers instead of 100% so they are still decent, but not Flashfire on a Blaster.

[Vanden]

Captain Powerhouse has already acknowledged that Blaster holds in the new secondaries are too strong and are already on the chopping block for some nebulous future update.

 

Personally I think they shouldn't be there at all.

[RabbitUp]

12 hours ago, Leogunner said:

And that's not being hypocritical.

 

Are you done? Or do you have an argument against the things I actually said rather than the words you're putting in my mouth?

Putting words in my mouth is what you've been doing from the beginning. This is getting pointless, though, so I'll leave to yell at clouds, while the rest of us have a proper discussion.

Edited January 3, 2020 by RabbitUp

[DrRocket]

This is a good topic, not sure about the solution.

 

It is my impression that some sets holds tend to be more effective than others, but it could be that some mobs have added resistances to particular attacks such as fire for instance.

 

It would be interesting to evaluate how all the mez sets by controller and dominator are actually performing, and do first corrections to bring the performance of whatever set to a standard benchmark. I have a fire controller, and it seems the holds just don't take or are resisted, maybe the MAG intensities are too low or some mechanic is taking over which gives the impression of not working.  But perceptions could be wrong as well.

 

I do see the point of a poster of not making the game easier, the comment works great if you are one of those classes that powers line up for them, in the case of the controller and dominator that is not the case, they too have a heart and would like to feel they are truly contributing to the team and not just taking up space

[Galaxy Brain]

...are there certain mobs where like, holds dont work but stuns do? Or other combos of that?

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, DrRocket said:

This is a good topic, not sure about the solution.

 

It is my impression that some sets holds tend to be more effective than others, but it could be that some mobs have added resistances to particular attacks such as fire for instance.

 

It would be interesting to evaluate how all the mez sets by controller and dominator are actually performing, and do first corrections to bring the performance of whatever set to a standard benchmark. I have a fire controller, and it seems the holds just don't take or are resisted, maybe the MAG intensities are too low or some mechanic is taking over which gives the impression of not working.  But perceptions could be wrong as well.

 

I do see the point of a poster of not making the game easier, the comment works great if you are one of those classes that powers line up for them, in the case of the controller and dominator that is not the case, they too have a heart and would like to feel they are truly contributing to the team and not just taking up space

I've heard this, but there doesnt seem to be any reason why that would be in the power info. My guess would be that the subtle choking animation for Fire's hold gets overridden by other controlled animations so it seems like they do less. 

[Steampunkette]

Slap a 45 second recharge time on them, drop the duration to 8 seconds, and make them immune to Recharge Rate Changes.

 

POW! Now you can control every group (Or every other group) and slotting for mez duration but can only hit around 20 seconds. Normally they last for a base of 15-7 and can be increased to just under 30 to 36 seconds.

 

So it both increases the out of the box usefulness of the power (by letting you use it more often) and reduces that usefulness (By halving the duration). This encourages either an "Alpha Control" function to minimize incoming damage out of the gate, followed by more precise control, -or- a more "Emergency Control" function, where the control power is used mid-fight to give people time to recover Endurance and/or HP.

 

And with no recharge rate interaction, Permahasten becomes less immediately beneficial to Controllers and has slightly less utility for Dominators, since these powers will not recharge any faster.

[oedipus_tex]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

...are there certain mobs where like, holds dont work but stuns do? Or other combos of that?

 

 

Not too often but yes. Mainly the Nemesis enemy group. I am fairly sure they have Stun protection but not Hold protection.

 

Otherwise, Hold and Stun protection are often seen in trio with Immobilize protection. The classic case example is Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion. Fire Controllers despise enemies with these powers because it shuts down all of their controls: Hold, Stun, and Immobilize all in one power. Weirdly, they become less common on enemies at higher levels. It's all over the place in the mid levels.

 

All of the "bubble" powers have holes to Sleep, Confuse, and Terrify. The bubble also provides no protection from knockdown, slow, -recharge, endurance drain, or -ToHit, which is why the "debuffy" control sets don't mind bubbles as much.

 

On players, Acrobatics provides Hold but not Stun protection.

 

There are probably some enemies I am forgetting.

[tidge]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:23 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

...are there certain mobs where like, holds dont work but stuns do? Or other combos of that?

I can't think of any faction with 'native' resistance to Holds, but there are a few other control sets that don't work on certain factions. From memory, Nemesis (and Rularuu?) have some base immunity to Confuse. Certain Longbow grant immunity to the minions from Confuse as well, and Malta robots have a large Magnitude resistance to Confuse.

 

War/Werewolves have such a large Magnitude resistance to Immobilize that I don't think I've ever observed one stuck... possibly because they've run away already. They have no resistance to Holds or Stuns.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I can't think of any faction with 'native' resistance to Holds, but there are a few other control sets that don't work on certain factions. From memory, Nemesis (and Rularuu?) have some base immunity to Confuse. Certain Longbow grant immunity to the minions from Confuse as well, and Malta robots have a large Magnitude resistance to Confuse.

 

War/Werewolves have such a large Magnitude resistance to Immobilize that I don't think I've ever observed one stuck... possibly because they've run away already. They have no resistance to Holds or Stuns.

Speaking of which, does anyone else find the run rate of those wolves to be absolutely obnoxious? No, just me? LOL

[Steampunkette]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I can't think of any faction with 'native' resistance to Holds, but there are a few other control sets that don't work on certain factions. From memory, Nemesis (and Rularuu?) have some base immunity to Confuse. Certain Longbow grant immunity to the minions from Confuse as well, and Malta robots have a large Magnitude resistance to Confuse.

 

War/Werewolves have such a large Magnitude resistance to Immobilize that I don't think I've ever observed one stuck... possibly because they've run away already. They have no resistance to Holds or Stuns.

Arachnos.

 

All of the Arachnos Bosses have resistance to every control type to some degree or another.

[Lusid]

A bit lower in the front page of this forum i have a write up of suggested changes to overhaul the control type AT's as well. It addresses most of the issues talked about in the first post, as well as some other changes and some quality of life updates. 

 

To add to the current topic though, yes. Control types need some love, but the changes that need to be made are not small and would im sure be met with resistance. For the health of the game and class, something should be done. This game is the only one i've ever seen that allows crowd control to be a major aspect of a class. Most CC in mmo games is very short duration. This one lets it shine bright and i'd love to see it kept up to snuff with everything else that exists or gets added. 

[tidge]

14 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Arachnos.

 

All of the Arachnos Bosses have resistance to every control type to some degree or another.

Fair enough, but I was thinking of resistance across the entire faction and not just boss classes. There are several factions with bosses that have a higher level of resistance to certain controls.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

also sleep seems kinda useless....

[Galaxy Brain]

16 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Arachnos.

 

All of the Arachnos Bosses have resistance to every control type to some degree or another.

That... is the opposite of the problem I suppose lol. If enemies either resist all the mez or none of the mez, it makes the AoE stuns / confuse / etc overly powerful and makes other mez types questionable (like Sleep)

 

 

[QuiJon]

On 12/28/2019 at 2:43 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Preface: I've played City of Heroes for a very long time, and eons ago I remember being able to use Flash or Mass Confusion or Cinders, etc. to control (or later dominate) my foes. They were reliable and helped define what it meant to be a controller. But then dark times occurred, and the CoH devs decided that they would smite us for thinking that a controller could effectively control a group of would be criminals.

 

Wouldn't it be great if we could use a AoE hold or power and it recharged out of the box significantly less than the 4 minute (240 second) timer that was imposed upon us? We live in a world where DPS can nuke every group (and sometimes twice if their a sentinel), but we are stuck waiting as CONTROL BASED AT'S are left in the dust and often times not even needed...

 

I'd suggest that we go across the board and reduce the base recharge of controller and dominator AoE Mezzes from 240 to 90 seconds (I'd even compromise at the 2 minute mark).

 

As usual thanks. Any thoughts on the matter?

The general problem I have with this, which isn't huge honestly, is that though I can feel the pain at lower levels, when I do finally play up my dominators, the AOE controls are hitting so fast that I can many times use them twice in a large mob. At 90s or even 2 minutes what I would be afraid of is that every mob can be locked down and never have a chance to break free by the upper levels. Though I get the point of comparing this to the survivability of other ATs like the melee groups, it still isn't a lot of fun to be only fighting statues, which those ATs are NOT doing in that their enemies are still fighting back. 

 

I do think that off the basic game design and the level at which you get most these AOEs still fall into what would normally have been a DO enhancement level of the game, that I wonder if they should look at scaling the recharge with the level. Actually allow for a faster recharge time at lower levels when you don't have the global bonuses and enhancements available to you and then scale it up slightly as you level.. Then perhaps by level 50 have that time be something more like 200 seconds rather then 240 just so it is still required to build a character then to just have one overly used power.

[AlienMafia]

On 12/28/2019 at 3:02 PM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i agree but i also think a higher difficulty level will make mezzes more relevant in general. Also can we switch out mass confusion for the penelope yin mind pet?

Nnnnnnooooooo! Mass confuse is awesome. Get rid of Telekinesis!

[AlienMafia]

I'm highly against these suggestions. Controllers and dominators are already highly valuable and this would make them OP.

[oedipus_tex]

I'm not super worried that making these powers better will make the class vastly more powerful because 2 Control sets get good powers in the place of the AoE Hold, and that hasn't happened. The Dark Control hold was almost in certain response to overall community responses to the AoE Hold powers.

 

Dark Control's Hold has two parts:

• An initial portion that immediately Holds mobs. This part responds to Domination.
• A "lingering" part with a debuff that lasts 45 seconds after the initial cast.

I think a lingering effect in some of these powers would be nice. I'm less crazy about doing that for Fire and Plant than the others, but Gravity, Ice, Mind I can see it. We may be allowed to decide that some sets get the buff and others do not piecemeal. That's how they are currently set up anyway, with Earth and Dark getting a lingering effect. 

 

 

[AlienMafia]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm not super worried that making these powers better will make the class vastly more powerful because 2 Control sets get good powers in the place of the AoE Hold, and that hasn't happened. The Dark Control hold was almost in certain response to overall community responses to the AoE Hold powers.

 

Dark Control's Hold has two parts:

• An initial portion that immediately Holds mobs. This part responds to Domination.
• A "lingering" part with a debuff that lasts 45 seconds after the initial cast.

I think a lingering effect in some of these powers would be nice. I'm less crazy about doing that for Fire and Plant than the others, but Gravity, Ice, Mind I can see it. We may be allowed to decide that some sets get the buff and others do not piecemeal. That's how they are currently set up anyway, with Earth and Dark getting a lingering effect. 

 

 

I like your view point especially with not as often used sets like Ice and Mind. I would use this as a starting point to balance amongst the controllers rather than outright buff to all. Maybe not was meant in OP but a starting point

[WindDemon21]

On 12/28/2019 at 6:02 PM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i agree but i also think a higher difficulty level will make mezzes more relevant in general. Also can we switch out mass confusion for the penelope yin mind pet?

I've been saying this forever, move mass confusion to 18, lower it's rech to 90s same as total dom, ditch telekinesis, and move psionic nexus to 32.

 

Also, yeah aoe holds across the board should be at least 2 minutes, if not 90s recharge by now, and should not have an accuracy penalty for aoe controls. Heck nukes get an accuracy BONUS, not a penalty, and they actually kill the mob.