Why so many chaotic Controllers?

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

The game has basically become far too easy and speedy for such tactics to be necessary. I can’t speak for lowbie content, but, in the endgame, if immobilizes are slowing you down... it’s not the immobilize’s fault. Every level 50 team should be shredding 54 mobs like they’re nothing, even if one particular player isn’t able to hit every baddie with his AoE’s.

 

If someone complains about controls on a level 50 team, best thing to do is look at all the enemy bodies that just instantaneously fell dead and shrug.

Yeah, and that is why I no longer play. Have not played in about a year now. I only maintain this account so that I can have a way to keep track on my mods that I have created so that if anyone has any issues with them or if they need to be updated, I can get a notification and fix the problem. Other than that, I don't play anymore. The game is just far too easy and I just can't play that way.

[arcane]

14 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Yeah, and that is why I no longer play. Have not played in about a year now. I only maintain this account so that I can have a way to keep track on my mods that I have created so that if anyone has any issues with them or if they need to be updated, I can get a notification and fix the problem. Other than that, I don't play anymore. The game is just far too easy and I just can't play that way.

You’re not wrong. I constantly ask myself what I’m doing pouring so many thousands of hours into such easy repetitive gaming. But so far my brain has continued to choose easy dopamine over anything meaningful.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Time for a funny anecdote that is guaranteed to make someone hate me! 🙂

 

A rule that I developed on the Retail servers, before The Snap, is to never invite Controllers or Dominators that I don't know to a PuG. Never. Never, ever, ever. The few times I've violated that rule, almost always by accident, I've been reminded why I created that rule in the first place.

 

I'm usually on a tank when I'm PuGing and PuG controllers will inevitably fire off their AoE immobs before I get the mobs locked around my Invuln tank. Which means that my defense is lower and I can't hold all of the aggro. And then they fire at the controller, drop him, and then the controller gets mad that I wasn't able to keep the aggro off of them. And then, before I can finish typing my response explaining why they are problem, they quit the team.

 

But I'm not bitter about it or anything. No, not me!   &$%@( idiot controllers.

[Miss Magical]

I've occasionally noticed this behavior as well, and it can be annoying if you're trying to kill things with small aoe attacks (e.g. burn).

 

But I found that there's an easy solution: pull more enemies! And by more, I mean the next 3 groups, and the AV at the end, too. It won't matter at that point if a few enemies are spread out, because the entire field will be filled with enemies too. This also works well as a counter to knockback: most powers have target caps of 10 or 16, so if there are at least 32 enemies surrounding the party, your damage isn't negatively affected.

[Sovera]

I was playing with three controllers a couple weeks back and I could see that I upset one of them. They were majestically polite though.

 

We started doing a Synapse and of course everyone starts spamming their immobilizes. I ask if they could not. Keep playing. They keep doing it. I let a few minutes pass and then ask again if they could not. They keep doing it. I wasn't upset nor did I berate them. But it was so obviously unnecessary. Nothing was added by using the mass immobilizes. The mobs were not hurting, no one was dying, and instead of killing faster we were slogging through as my main strength of bursty AoE was diluted by only hitting part of the spawn.

 

After another mission I take the time and re-mention how the spam of immobilizes, fears and stuns was only slowing things. Instead of the enemies clustering around me for AoE they had to be picked one by one where ever they had been feared, immobilized, or were staggering drunkenly.

 

That's when one of them said started staying by the door, and when someone asked they said they had no powers they could use at that level if they could not use their CC.

 

And, I mean, as I said above they were polite about it, no snark, no growling. The best part is that I actually appreciated it. I would rather do the TF with one person doorsitting than the spam of mass immobilizes. The other two also stopped using theirs, though the spam of mass fears and stuns continued.

 

I'm sure they felt they were helping, bless.

 

 

Edit: it feels like I'm talking shit when I come to the Controller forums to say how their CC is not needed and only slows down things. The problem really lays in the game. For 90% of the game everything is easy. The last 10% a Controller would be appreciated but they have to contend with 90% of the game. Such as I was doing a First Ward arc with a friend and we come across the Resistance. Phew, we had torn a new one to everything until then and suddenly those guys were debuffing and eating my endurance like no one's business. Suddenly that was where a Controller would have shined. But in order to be useful in that instance they would have had to be a fifth wheel (uncharitable hyperbole) until then.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sovera

[Solarverse]

18 hours ago, arcane said:

You’re not wrong. I constantly ask myself what I’m doing pouring so many thousands of hours into such easy repetitive gaming. But so far my brain has continued to choose easy dopamine over anything meaningful.

I know exactly what you mean. I was there once too.  🙂

[Solarverse]

14 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Time for a funny anecdote that is guaranteed to make someone hate me! 🙂

 

A rule that I developed on the Retail servers, before The Snap, is to never invite Controllers or Dominators that I don't know to a PuG. Never. Never, ever, ever. The few times I've violated that rule, almost always by accident, I've been reminded why I created that rule in the first place.

 

I'm usually on a tank when I'm PuGing and PuG controllers will inevitably fire off their AoE immobs before I get the mobs locked around my Invuln tank. Which means that my defense is lower and I can't hold all of the aggro. And then they fire at the controller, drop him, and then the controller gets mad that I wasn't able to keep the aggro off of them. And then, before I can finish typing my response explaining why they are problem, they quit the team.

 

But I'm not bitter about it or anything. No, not me!   &$%@( idiot controllers.

I would be more than happy to run a Troller with you sometime. I love to let good Tanks do what they do. I don't think there is really any "right way" to play these days, may have never been a "right way" but you and I clearly have similar play styles and would get along just fine.  😉

[Solarverse]

27 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I was playing with three controllers a couple weeks back and I could see that I upset one of them. They were majestically polite though.

 

We started doing a Synapse and of course everyone starts spamming their immobilizes. I ask if they could not. Keep playing. They keep doing it. I let a few minutes pass and then ask again if they could not. They keep doing it. I wasn't upset nor did I berate them. But it was so obviously unnecessary. Nothing was added by using the mass immobilizes. The mobs were not hurting, no one was dying, and instead of killing faster we were slogging through as my main strength of bursty AoE was diluted by only hitting part of the spawn.

 

After another mission I take the time and re-mention how the spam of immobilizes, fears and stuns was only slowing things. Instead of the enemies clustering around me for AoE they had to be picked one by one where ever they had been feared, immobilized, or were staggering drunkenly.

 

That's when one of them said started staying by the door, and when someone asked they said they had no powers they could use at that level if they could not use their CC.

 

And, I mean, as I said above they were polite about it, no snark, no growling. The best part is that I actually appreciated it. I would rather do the TF with one person doorsitting than the spam of mass immobilizes. The other two also stopped using theirs, though the spam of mass fears and stuns continued.

 

I'm sure they felt they were helping, bless.

 

 

Edit: it feels like I'm talking shit when I come to the Controller forums to say how their CC is not needed and only slows down things. The problem really lays in the game. For 90% of the game everything is easy. The last 10% a Controller would be appreciated but they have to contend with 90% of the game. Such as I was doing a First Ward arc with a friend and we come across the Resistance. Phew, we had torn a new one to everything until then and suddenly those guys were debuffing and eating my endurance like no one's business. Suddenly that was where a Controller would have shined. But in order to be useful in that instance they would have had to be a fifth wheel (uncharitable hyperbole) until then.

When I play a Troller, I use the hell out of my Immobs...they key difference though, is that I wait until the baddies stack up on the Tank. Then I lock them down so that the Blaster can be free to annihilate with their AoE, Scrappers can focus on mobs without running all over creation and Tanks get their bonus defenses/regeneration/recovery for having large groups of NPCs within their range.

No power is bad if used in synergy with the team. But all it takes is one player to disrupt that synergy. Your Trollers could have held off just a few short seconds when attacking mobs to let the Tank gain the Alpha and Aggro stack and they could have unleashed their unholy hell upon then, heh.

It really depends on the team though, sometimes, you get a team without a Tank and maybe the blasters are fine with the instant immob...for me, I find that it is always best to start playing the style I typically play, get a feel of how the team plays and then adjust from there.

[Sovera]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

When I play a Troller, I use the hell out of my Immobs...they key difference though, is that I wait until the baddies stack up on the Tank. Then I lock them down so that the Blaster can be free to annihilate with their AoE, Scrappers can focus on mobs without running all over creation and Tanks get their bonus defenses/regeneration/recovery for having large groups of NPCs within their range.

No power is bad if used in synergy with the team. But all it takes is one player to disrupt that synergy. Your Trollers could have held off just a few short seconds when attacking mobs to let the Tank gain the Alpha and Aggro stack and they could have unleashed their unholy hell upon then, heh.

It really depends on the team though, sometimes, you get a team without a Tank and maybe the blasters are fine with the instant immob...for me, I find that it is always best to start playing the style I typically play, get a feel of how the team plays and then adjust from there.

 

To be honest not even that approach satisfies me. Because of body blocking mobs do several concentric rings around me. Once the first ring is dead arrested the second ring surrounds me. This repeats itself until all are dead. Even when a Controller waits until I'm surrounded I no longer have enemies scooting closer when they are immobilized.

 

Like I said, when the enemies don't hurt and no one is in danger spamming mass CCs does nothing. Fears, immobilizes, stuns. They are great for optional panic buttons such as two spawns close together or ambushes, which are moments when the number of enemies surpass 17 and some will be running around trying to hit the rest of the team. But outside those panic moments to be used or not be used influences nothing, and most of the time just slows everything. It's hardly a big deal though, but it is what it is.

 

Now in that example of the Resistance being a dangerous group that would be when stuns and fears would make a large difference in survival, so the fault lies in the game that makes 90% of the content too easy to require anything more fancy than hitting something until it stops moving.

[Solarverse]

16 minutes ago, Sovera said:

so the fault lies in the game that makes 90% of the content too easy to require anything more fancy than hitting something until it stops moving.

I think this is the primary root of what makes the game nowhere near as fun and challenging to play as it used to be....for me.

[MoonSheep]

On 1/1/2020 at 1:22 AM, Solarverse said:

Which goes back to what I was saying about IO's. The game is simply face rollingly easy to play these days so there is no consequence to "playing badly."

 

if i lead a TF i always run it on enemies buffed to give the foe +50% acc and +50% dmg - gets people working as a team and adds a nice amount of challenge

[PeregrineFalcon]

21 hours ago, arcane said:

You’re not wrong. I constantly ask myself what I’m doing pouring so many thousands of hours into such easy repetitive gaming.

Here's my suggestions, for whatever that's worth.

1. You could try some of the less optimal powersets and/or AT's. Not every Scrapper needs to be TW/Bio or EM/Shield. Try something different. It might actually be fun.
2. Play the game for the stories. Actually read the text. If you like playing AE then find some good AE story missions.
3. Create one of those awesome story missions in the AE.
4. Lead task forces and/or incarnate trials. You think playing the game is easy? Try herding people through a Rikti Mothership Raid. That's a bit of a challenge.
5. Do what a lot of people do and spend your time on the forums trying to convince the devs to nerf the players and/or buff the enemies in some form or other. It seems to be a very popular pastime for people with your outlook.
6. Work on updating the wiki.

TL;DR: There's tons of other, non-repetitive stuff, that you can do with this game.

[arcane]

23 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Here's my suggestions, for whatever that's worth.

1. You could try some of the less optimal powersets and/or AT's. Not every Scrapper needs to be TW/Bio or EM/Shield. Try something different. It might actually be fun.
2. Play the game for the stories. Actually read the text. If you like playing AE then find some good AE story missions.
3. Create one of those awesome story missions in the AE.
4. Lead task forces and/or incarnate trials. You think playing the game is easy? Try herding people through a Rikti Mothership Raid. That's a bit of a challenge.
5. Do what a lot of people do and spend your time on the forums trying to convince the devs to nerf the players and/or buff the enemies in some form or other. It seems to be a very popular pastime for people with your outlook.
6. Work on updating the wiki.

TL;DR: There's tons of other, non-repetitive stuff, that you can do with this game.

1. Done to death. Will have 50 #89 tonight. Only a tiny handful of powersets left that I don’t have yet. Force Field, like 3 melee sets, a few of the dom secondaries and MM primaries. I have dozens of unconventional characters.

 

2-6. meh

 

I’m currently doing a “completionist” thing. Like I’d played every armor set, but only just finished specifically getting a tanker with every armor set. Have a couple blast sets I haven’t played specifically as a blaster too so working on that a bit. This Earth Dom I’m building will mean all control sets have been to 50 at least once (though half of them have already been there 3-4 times).

Edited September 3, 2021 by arcane

[Clave Dark 5]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:19 AM, arcane said:

Every level 50 team should be shredding 54 mobs like they’re nothing, even if one particular player isn’t able to hit every baddie with his AoE’s.

Not everyone min/maxes following forum guidelines.

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Not everyone min/maxes following forum guidelines.

 

While true, you only need one of those to lead a squad of sidekicks to victory against +4s. They may faceplant during the run but they'll get a ton of XP for their troubles.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Not everyone min/maxes following forum guidelines.

Neither do I. I don’t like the soft cap meta, 20-30% def plus moar procs and I’m happier. I find TW and Claws both a little on the boring side. Etc.

 

But the level 50+ game is just that simple, unless you’re on an 801.whatever or a MoMag or something.

[Coyote]

On 9/1/2021 at 4:58 PM, arcane said:

But so far my brain has continued to choose easy dopamine over anything meaningful.

LOL. Great line. My reasoning also.

[Aurora_Girl]

On 9/3/2021 at 10:40 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

While true, you only need one of those to lead a squad of sidekicks to victory against +4s. They may faceplant during the run but they'll get a ton of XP for their troubles.

 

I resemble that remark. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Aurora_Girl said:

I resemble that remark. 

 

So say we all, from both sides!

[Mopery]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

So say we all, from both sides!

It's a double-edged point.

[JasperStone]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:18 AM, blaythesteuer said:

is there a reason we don’t raise the aggro cap on tankers? seems like that would help a lot with these issues.

 

During early Live Tanks could Aggro entire maps ..... it was wisley changed.

[LynxNordique]

So, at least we have our secondaries... Seems like nobody cares about control anymore. Keep in mind that, on a low-level controller (read before level 20), The ONLY powers that recharge fast enough are the single target hold and the AoE immobilize. All the rest takes a long time to recharge and is not available at every fight. 

 

At high level, it gets even worst. While your AoE holds, stuns and fear are available most of the fights, the teammates defeat the mob so fast that, by the time you try cast them, the mobs are either dead or at a silver of their health. Even worst, it you fight an AV in a TF or Trial where there are the stupid patches of death (Keyes, MoM, Apex and the like), you cannot use any hard control, like hold or immobilize, because your risk having the AV held in one of them, so Melee cannot stay there. I'm not even talking about the long casting time of many of the control patches (and their uselessness in the previously mentioned patches of death). So, often, the controller becomes just a weak defender on team. It doesn't matter if you’re toon is a dark, earth, fire, or whatever, he or she will be appreciated because he or she is either a kinetic or has a power in his or her secondaries that is -regen, at higher level. Aside Kinetics and the -regen powers, people rather have a toon as a teammate that has Clarion (which anyone can have) instead of Increase density. Nobody cares anymore about Force fields, accelerate Metabolism or the Empathy buffs, as long as someone has Ageless and/or barrier. Of course, there are rare exceptions, like it’s nice to have a patch heavy controller on the Behavioral Adjustment Facility trials, for the mid part of it, and inside the stations of TPN. Controls are also required in the Green team of an Hamidon Raid, but these are the only place I can think of where it’s really nice to have controllers in a league.

 

From the 20s up to level 40, this is the only time controls matter, because your teammates don't kill as fast. The primaries then provide safety. If you’re doing First and Night ward content, the controller is your insurance policy against the mobs nasty debuffs. But aside of that level range: meh...

 

At the end of the day, I have mixed feeling regarding complaints about how the controllers are playing the game. I understand the point of view of the brute and tank, but that same brute and tank must also understand where the controller is coming from.

Edited November 5, 2021 by LynxNordique

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, LynxNordique said:

At the end of the day, I have mixed feeling regarding complaints about how the controller are playing the game. I understand the point of view of the brute and tank, but that same brute and tank must also understand where the controller is coming from.

 

I play more than one AT so I understand well what one AT find annoying that another does and adjust my play on a particular AT to not do the annoying thing.

 

As example, when playing my controller I will watch after a melee enters a spawn until whatever portion of a spawn uses its ranged attack then maneuvers forward then use control so they are all within the AoE range of the melee. Typically means waiting about 3 seconds.

 

Conversely, when dealing with a controller who locks things down immediately (like last night while I was playing my Stalker) I accept that my AoE attacks are going to be largely wasted and try to find opportunities to fit them in where I can, mostly be trying to arrive to the spawn first and get in one good burst of AoE damage.

[ninja surprise]

On 11/5/2021 at 12:22 PM, LynxNordique said:

From the 20s up to level 40, this is the only time controls matter, because your teammates don't kill as fast. The primaries then provide safety. If you’re doing First and Night ward content, the controller is your insurance policy against the mobs nasty debuffs. But aside of that level range: meh...

 

 

Wouldn't this also include all the Task forces from Positron up to Numina, and same on red side? Lady Gray has a mini-Hami too, where holds are useful.

Heck, on an ITF last night I kept wishing someone had an immob to keep the AVs from running all around. I was on my Illusion/Dark controller so I'd confuse the Surgeons but couldn't immobilize anything.

[Cancrusher]

@Solarverse  Hey, I appreciate the update and the context at the beginning of your OP.  There's a lot to this game, and a broad variety of play styles of people that play the game, so kudos to you for acknowledging that.

 

I have occasionally felt some of the frustration that you experienced, back when you first made your post.  I will say that I've been quite lucky and most controllers I've played with are very skilled.  I really appreciate a good controller on a team- particularly when I'm playing a brawler or a ranged attacker with AOE and I can get the mobs immobilized in a nice little clump together.  😁

 

As someone who plays a Tanker a certain amount of the time, I don't mind Knockback attacks that make me chase mobs (I have combat teleport to deal with that).  But for those that ARE annoyed by KB, I think having a good controller with strong lockdown can alleviate a lot of the KB "angst" for those guys.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Cancrusher