Would you like to see Statesman return?

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I would find it more likely the Scirocco would shift alignments rather than Ghost Widow.

 

Yeah, but they can keep him...I like Ghost Widow, she dresses way cooler. Goth chicks are hawt.

[Oubliette_Red]

 

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

9 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I would find it more likely the Scirocco would shift alignments rather than Ghost Widow.

 

Yeah, but they can keep him...I like Ghost Widow, she dresses way cooler. Goth chicks are hawt.

Sorry, but since I don't bat for the other team, I prefer Scirocco for the same reason.  😃

 

I also prefer his story over hers.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Oubliette_Red said:

 

Sorry, but since I don't bat for the other team, I prefer Scirocco for the same reason.  😃

 

I also prefer his story over hers.

Then we shall duel to the death! Winner takes eeebil villain of their choice!

[The Bobby Llama]

1 hour ago, Wintercat said:

I appreciate your ideas and would like to sybscribe to your newsletter.

Thanks, but the only idea I added was Lady Grey being able to control Tyrantsman, because it would be uncharacteristically sloppy of her not to.  Everything else came from dev comments from the Lore AMAs.

 

But since the discussion here is opening up a bit, here's the other main story developments they had planned, for everyone to chew on:

• Scirocco goes good.
• Rularuu is the key to defeating Battalion.  The details hadn't been finalized, but the plan was for Dream Doctor to merge with Rularuu so he could be directed at Battalion rather than devouring everything.  The story threads for this were already being seeded, with Mender Silos sabotaging Dream Doctor's attempt to destroy Rularuu, and Lady Grey extracting whatever she can get out of Wade's head.

[Chris24601]

16 minutes ago, The Bobby Llama said:

But since the discussion here is opening up a bit, here's the other main story developments they had planned, for everyone to chew on:

• Scirocco goes good.
• Rularuu is the key to defeating Battalion.  The details hadn't been finalized, but the plan was for Dream Doctor to merge with Rularuu so he could be directed at Battalion rather than devouring everything.  The story threads for this were already being seeded, with Mender Silos sabotaging Dream Doctor's attempt to destroy Rularuu, and Lady Grey extracting whatever she can get out of Wade's head.

The first I liked, particularly since a part of that was going to be opening up the Patron Power Pools to Heroes without their having to alignment switch. Basically you run a story arc for the redeemed Scirocco to get the badge you need to unlock the Patron Pools.

 

The second I REALLY wasn't a fan of because it set the players into the role of sidekicks to big hero Dream Doctor who sacrifices it all to save the world and THEN also includes a follow-up where the Shadow Shard collapses and goes away (as in the zones were going to be removed from the game) because Rularuu is no longer there to sustain it.

 

Along with the power escalation involving then facing the EVEN MORE POWERFUL Dimensionless and then THE MORER POWERFULLER masters behind the Dimenionless before finally just having to re-launch a City of Heroes 2 because the CoH1 characters would then be Galactus/Monitor level beings) showed me that the dev team in 2012 had either;

 

A) run out of creative ideas.

B) were getting so much pressure from NCSoft to make CoH a traditional grindfest MMO that such things were all they could focus on.

-or-

C) both.

 

That CoH got shut down when it did may have been something of a backhanded blessing in disguise because the Homecoming team and those of other servers aren't married to continuing that self-destructive chain of MMO grind and can instead look at other ways to continue the story in new ways.

 

I've laid out previously how I think a better way to do the Coming Storm is via a pile-up of smaller threats that break the camel's back (rather like Positron's TF writ large with the Clockwork, Circle and Vahzilok all having schemes involving the dam) requiring cooperation to overcome instead of just "MORE POWER!!!" The Battalion end up being a Rikti+ invasion (literally... Rikti-tech is basically reverse engineered from the Battalion who invaded Earth in their dimension millennia ago) that happens to land about the same time there's a new push by the Rula'shin to free Rularuu, the new Council/5th Civil War goes hot and a couple more things all happening at once that only a City of Heroes (and Villains) working together can stop from destroying the world.

 

In my head as I've continued to develop the idea, I think there need to be FIVE simultaneous threats; one for each of the origins. Rularuu would be magic and could involve a revamp of the Shadow Shard content (maybe swapping out the generic soldier mobs for Vanguard and Midnight Squad, but not doing too much with the actual geography). The Battalion would probably be Science, a merging of Primal and Praetorian Hami could be the Mutant element, etc.

 

The point is that you could create the Coming Storm without having to completely reinvent the game or up the current power levels to get there. Just make the focus on needing multiple supers to actually overcome these threats (meaning some teams have to be in the Shadow Shard fighting the Rularuu resurgence, others fighting off Battalion attacks and still others facing a multi-dimensional Hamidon threat.

[starro]

Yes.  When the HC team can build and advance the story line.  I want the Battalion story too. 

[Frostbiter]

Other than preferring the original Hero's Hero story arc over A Hero's Epic I am completely fine with Statesman being gone. I just hate the Posi version of that arc.

[VileTerror]

uh, Heraclea?  You have -unlimited- AE slots.

Just roll another account.

[DR_Mechano]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Along with the power escalation involving then facing the EVEN MORE POWERFUL Dimensionless and then THE MORER POWERFULLER masters behind the Dimenionless before finally just having to re-launch a City of Heroes 2 because the CoH1 characters would then be Galactus/Monitor level beings) showed me that the dev team in 2012 had either;

I will point out that in one of the Lore AMAs that with the Battalion gone (who were essentially the settings uber-bad at the time), we'd see smaller but still substantial Incarnate threats crawl out of the woodwork who had all been in hiding trying to keep their heads down out of sight of the Battalion. So we'd have gone from facing a level 100 threat in the Battalion to facing more nuanced level 70-80 style threats whilst we were level 60.

 

So in fact I imagine we'd have a descaling in power level once the Battalion were gone. I suspect this is where the numerous 'Incarnate buffed villain groups' would come in as well. Though I can't deny I do suspect in the long term we would have seen an overall increase in power which as WoW can prove is very problematic (the level squish that's coming with the new expansion pack AND the numerous Item level squishes that seem to happen every 2 expansion). You just have to keep piling on the threat after threat until it becomes rather silly.

[Chris24601]

As I recall from the AMAs they said we’d basically “cheat” our way up the Incarnate ladder to beat the Battalion and would basically end up with each PC being their own Well and this would draw the notice and ire of the Dimensionless who somehow oversaw the Wells and would be basically Coming Storm 2.0.

 

Now, I don’t mind the “basically, you cheat” method of beating an enemy group. Changing the nature of the conflict against an unstoppable foe to an arena where you CAN fight them is superhero 101 (a prime example is the first Iron Man film. Tony can’t beat Stane’s suit in a head-to-head... but did Stane solve the icing problem? That turns the tide).

 

What I dislike is the “now you permanently have even MORE power” ending. Superman or Spider-Man don’t gain radically new powers when they overcome even cosmic threats. They “cheat” then go back to their baseline.

 

With HC free of the need to sell new content and grind to make a profit, THAT can actually be the norm of new stories here. If an opponent’s too big for head-to-head (ex. Empowered Recluse at the end of MLTF) then we “cheat” (take out his empowerment machine first) in order to win the day.

 

I realize the genie is out of the bottle, but if could make one probably unpopular change to City of Heroes, I would have removed all the Incarnate powers and re-tuned the Praetorian War content to be normal 50-54 content.

 

Cole still feels the need to invade due to the threat a “chaotic” world like Primal Earth poses to his deal with Praetorian Hamidon, but there’s no “empowered by the Well which wants a champion before the Battalion show up” nonsense muddying that up.

 

I think the game would be healthier if The Well had never been introduced (except as the magical source of States and Recluse’s powers) and the Battalion were just alien conquerors strong enough to eventually enslave the Khelds as fuel sources instead of Well-collectors.

 

But the genie IS out of the bottle and so the best thing to do is limit the damage by declaring the incarnate system “complete” with its six slots with 4 tiers while your character concept is still somewhere to be seen under the powers the live devs designed to have you grind for like traditional MMO loot drops.

 

Keeping it to one general level shift and two incarnate shifts at least means normal content can be +3 to your level and non-shifted incarnate foes can still be +1 to your level. One passive boost power, one proc effect on your attacks, one nuke, one summon, one PBAoE party buff and one two-minute toggle buff is quite a lot, but a lot still depends on your original build too.

 

I don’t know if that would still be the case if we had been able to grind all the way to a hypothetical four more incarnate slots with how many more incarnate shifts and an “Omega” slot (which should mean “done” except if it HAD kept the doors open they’d have needed an Omega+ slot and then an Omega++ slot to keep the grind going).

 

But we thankfully don’t have to find out because we can at least declare HCs incarnate system done while still weak enough that the Natural origin character can declare that their Ionic Judgement is an orbital ion cannon strike from a Vanguard satellite and the minimal FX Vanguard Lore pets are actual Vanguard troops who teleported in to assist you... and still mostly has to rely on their own abilities to get things done.

 

Let’s beat the Battalion the comic-book way; Cheat and then go back to baseline... in this case meaning no more incarnate tags on new content so it’s just one level shift (the Well no longer needs to pump extra power into you) and the incarnate power levels we have now (not to say there couldn’t be new options for the existing slots... just not more powerful ones).

[Call Me Awesome]

Meh, the character wasn't exactly a shining example... more of an obnoxious and overbearing boss you hated.  The death scene in the SSA was rather poorly done, but the entire arc was as well so nothing unusual there.

 

As I see it if he comes back there's two choices, either retcon the SSA arcs which they could certainly use or we open up the Oroborus Time Editing thing and drag him from just before he died and substitute a decoy.  Or you could have the old standby of someone new taking up the colors, a "the King is dead, long live the King".

[Dreamboat]

10 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

we'd see smaller but still substantial Incarnate threats crawl out of the woodwork who had all been in hiding trying to keep their heads down out of sight of the Battalion. So we'd have gone from facing a level 100 threat in the Battalion to facing more nuanced level 70-80 style threats whilst we were level 60.

I like the idea of facing multiple simultaneous threats that aren't big time universe enders (or even world-enders, separately) but are still dangerous enemies that require something be done about them, and combined make something really formidable. The Sinister Six idea!
Feels a bit more in line with the majority of the game as well, where any given zone has at least three villain groups causing trouble at any given time.

[Rylas]

I'm for bringing back a Statesman, but not the Statesman. He got his powers from the Well, so why not let the Well bestow those powers on someone new. You could even have a story arc you play out (not as your own character, but as the soon-to-be new Statesman). And as someone mentioned earlier, it could play into the creation of the next Incarnate abilities (should we ever get that far). 

 

I like the idea of an iconic hero that's the exemplifies the spirit of the game. He/She doesn't have to be in all the content. They just need to be a mascot.  

[Vanden]

12 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

As I recall from the AMAs they said we’d basically “cheat” our way up the Incarnate ladder to beat the Battalion and would basically end up with each PC being their own Well and this would draw the notice and ire of the Dimensionless who somehow oversaw the Wells and would be basically Coming Storm 2.0.

I’m pretty sure the “cheat” mentioned in the AMAs was using Rularuu to destroy the majority of the Battalion forces, not some kind of temporary powerup for the player characters.

[Chris24601]

44 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I’m pretty sure the “cheat” mentioned in the AMAs was using Rularuu to destroy the majority of the Battalion forces, not some kind of temporary powerup for the player characters.

Here’s their exact words from the 2012 AMA courtesy of ParagonWiki;

 

After the Battalion, what was the next "big idea" that was going to come down the road, if you had thought that far ahead?

 

MM: The Dimensionless are a race of beings superior to the Wells. Dealing with them once you became a well unto yourself was the next logical step.

 

STM: One of the ideas was that you kind of “cheat” to defeat Battalion, in essence doing something that should take you being level 50 ++++++++ and doing it at level 50, shattering the source of Battalion. However, this meant that a ton of things that were controlled by Battalion were now freed to do whatever they want, so the threats were unknown but out there, and now it was the responsibility of the players to go out there and handle them.

 

ETA: My key takeaways from those quotes in terms of power-up grind were “once you became a well unto yourself” and that the Dimensionless were superior to the Wells and would have to be dealt with.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Chris24601

[Vanden]

8 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Here’s their exact words from the 2012 AMA courtesy of ParagonWiki;

 

After the Battalion, what was the next "big idea" that was going to come down the road, if you had thought that far ahead?

 

MM: The Dimensionless are a race of beings superior to the Wells. Dealing with them once you became a well unto yourself was the next logical step.

 

STM: One of the ideas was that you kind of “cheat” to defeat Battalion, in essence doing something that should take you being level 50 ++++++++ and doing it at level 50, shattering the source of Battalion. However, this meant that a ton of things that were controlled by Battalion were now freed to do whatever they want, so the threats were unknown but out there, and now it was the responsibility of the players to go out there and handle them.

 

ETA: My key takeaways from those quotes in terms of power-up grind were “once you became a well unto yourself” and that the Dimensionless were superior to the Wells and would have to be dealt with.

The “cheat” was outlined in more detail in the 2015 AMA:

 

Dr. Aeon: The players would've faced the leadership of Battalion, who were out of anyone's league, essentially fighting the end boss of a game, but you're only on hour 2. The goal of the fight would've been to release Rularuu. Dream Doctor would have sacrificed his life to bring Rularuu back into the world to destroy Battalion, but not blink all of the universe out of existence.

[Obus Form]

35 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The “cheat” was outlined in more detail in the 2015 AMA:

 

Dr. Aeon: The players would've faced the leadership of Battalion, who were out of anyone's league, essentially fighting the end boss of a game, but you're only on hour 2. The goal of the fight would've been to release Rularuu. Dream Doctor would have sacrificed his life to bring Rularuu back into the world to destroy Battalion, but not blink all of the universe out of existence.

*CoX exits chat*

*CoH2 enters the chat* 

 

CoH2: Hell!! It's about tiame! *screen flicker*

 

 

 

[Mansome]

The character yes, Jack hell no. If they do bring back Statesman he needs to be weaker because he was too overpowered. Personally I wish this thread was about bringing back the hawtness that was Sister Psyche instead. But that is just me.

[Gorgar]

I have to admit I don't pay great attention to the story here, so maybe I'm missing some deep interesting Statesman lore, but he always seemed like the blandest Superman/Captain America amalgam.  It always felt like the game was telling me he was iconic, rather than showing me.  I don't remember a single Great Statesman Moment.  But maybe I missed something.  I don't know, even the name is pretty bland.

 

I'd rather any story effort be focused on a more interesting character, unless someone feels like they've got the ultimate Statesman story to tell.  I don't think turning him into a Kheldian, depowering him, etc would do that for me.  If you think he's a great character, *show us*.  I didn't really care about Superman at first either, but I eventually read enough to find him interesting.

 

Until such time, I'd probably go for a Flambeaux or Azuria story over bringing back Statesman.

[Sif]

10 minutes ago, Gorgar said:

maybe I'm missing some deep interesting Statesman lore

Totally!

 

There was... um... that time he got kidnapped! And... the time you help him out in Mender Silos' TF or chat with him during the Incarnate intro arc (IIRC), time you went to beat up a bunch of people for him, and... the time you saw him fight in RV? Yeah, I think that's about it for hero side.

[MyriVerse]

He's about as relevant to the game and stories as that statue in Atlas Park. I don't need to see him past that.