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Tacheyon

Poison/Sonic - When you want to shred

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So a few days ago I was looking at a Trap/Sonic build.  The thing that wasn't working for was the lack of mobility.  So I abandoned the Traps (I use it a lot for MM's) and took a look at Cold or Poison.  Both have good debuffs to fit in with what I want to do with this Hero, which is to shred as much Def and Res in a short time for mostly group play, but also solo.  I think I have a decent build here and i just want to share it, in case someone else has done something like this.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Psychic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom -- Acc-I(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(9)
Level 1: Shriek -- Dcm-Build%(A), Dcm-Acc/Dmg(3), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19)
Level 2: Weaken -- Acc-I(A), SphIns-%ToHit(3)
Level 4: Howl -- Ann-ResDeb%(A), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(5), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(5), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), PstBls-Dam%(7), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(9)
Level 6: Neurotoxic Breath -- ImpSwf-Dam%(A), PcnoftheT-Rng/Slow(15), PcnoftheT-Acc/Slow(17)
Level 8: Scream -- GldJvl-Acc/Dmg(A), GldJvl-Dam/Rech(21), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(21), GldJvl-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(23), GldJvl-Dam%(23)
Level 10: Shockwave -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(11), Ann-ResDeb%(11), Ann-Acc/Dmg(13), Ann-Dmg/Rchg(13), Ann-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15)
Level 12: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 16: Shout -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg(36), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Apc-Acc/Rchg(37), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 18: Paralytic Poison -- Acc-I(A), Lck-Acc/Hold(37), Lck-%Hold(40), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(48)
Level 20: Amplify -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit(43), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(45)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(25), ResDam-I(25), UnbGrd-Max HP%(50)
Level 26: Poison Trap -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%(A), Obl-%Dam(27), ScrDrv-Dam%(27), Erd-%Dam(31), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(33), NrnSht-Dam%(33)
Level 28: Siren's Song -- CaloftheS-Heal%(A), CaloftheS-Acc/Rchg(29), CaloftheS-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(29), CaloftheS-EndRdx/Sleep(31), CaloftheS-Sleep/Rng(31)
Level 30: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(34), LucoftheG-Def(34), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(34)
Level 32: Venomous Gas -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), EndRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Dominate -- UnbCns-Hold(A), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(46), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(48), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(48), UnbCns-Dam%(50)
Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Dmg(39), Arm-Dam%(39), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(40), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(40)
Level 41: World of Confusion -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf(42), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(42), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(42), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(43), MlsIll-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), Ags-Psi/Status(45), GldArm-3defTpProc(45), GldArm-ResDam(46)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

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I think you're going to find some practical difficulties in using the Cone-based Sonic with the PBAoE-based Poison. There's just no good place to stand, especially given your limited ability to control how and where enemies move.

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You position yourself within the concentration of monsters no matter what your secondary is as a Poison/ Defender because keeping the Venemous Gas and Poison Traps applied is your most important task.

 

Poison/Sonic works great! - Signed,

 

Whale (Everlasting) - Veteran Level 27 Poison/Sonic Defender.

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4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I think you're going to find some practical difficulties in using the Cone-based Sonic with the PBAoE-based Poison. There's just no good place to stand, especially given your limited ability to control how and where enemies move.

Ah, another 2D Cone user who doesn't know they can be used in 3D as a PBAoE-ish attack when doing a Hop 'n' Pop.

On 4/9/2020 at 11:06 AM, Redlynne said:

What's a Hop 'n' Pop?  Well I'm glad you asked!

On 6/16/2019 at 9:36 AM, Redlynne said:

One of the tricks I learned while playing Ice/Ice which seemed utterly foreign to everyone I ever met on the Tanker forums was the notion of turning Frost (a Melee Cone attack) into a PBAoE by pointing it in a useful direction.

 

What do I mean by that?

Well, you need to abandon your ...

... in order to understand what I'm talking about here.

 

So with Range slotted into Frost, you can get a Cone Range of about 15 feet on it.

"So what?" ... I hear you cry ... "that's just going to be wasted."

 

Well, that range WOULD be wasted if all you did was stand on the ground and point your cone towards one side of the $Targets that will be attacking you, resulting in one of these:

piechart-512.png

 

If you're surrounded on all sides using a melee cone that misses 3/4 of the attackers and has extra range to waste "beyond the attackers" on that side of you isn't going to help anything ... right?

 

 

 

Well ... that would certainly be true if you stay glued to the ground and only POINT your Frost Cone attack to one SIDE of the $Targets surrounding you.

So why would you want to stay glued to the ground like a Stone Tanker who can't ... JUMP ...?

 

 

 

If you've been paying attention so far, you know what's coming next ... (temporary) three dimensional positioning in order to use your Frost attack WAY MORE effectively ... so as to turn it into more of a PBAoE(ish) attack.

 

All you have to do is JUMP UP ... about 15 feet ... which you can do perfectly fine with Hurdle and no Combat Jumping and simply "time it" to click Frost when you're at the top of your jump.  So instead of doing a Cone TO THE SIDE like in the above pie chart image, you instead do a Cone that angles DOWN to hit everything clustered up around you like this:

 

spacer.png

 

Do you see how much WIDER the purple ring is than the green ring in that cone?  The purple ring is only 50% farther away from the peak/caster, but it covers a MUCH wider area, catching way more $Targets within it that would all be clustered up upon your location.

 

I call it the "Hop 'n' Pop" move.

You "hop" upwards from the pile of aggro you've got clustered up on you and at the top of your jump you "pop" them with Frost and catch EVERYTHING that was around you on all sides ... just as if you hadn't moved and had been using a PBAoE attack instead.  It'll take all of about 2 seconds to make the jump/attack/fall, you'll hit A LOT more $Targets with your Frost attack, dramatically improving its efficiency of converting endurance into damage, you'll defeat dogpiles of aggro faster and you'll also be debuffing everything attacking you in melee range even more than they would have been debuffed if you'd stayed put on the ground and only pointed Frost at one side of the dogpile instead of hopping above it to catch ALL of them in the Frost Cone before falling right back down in the middle of them.  You don't even need to switch $Targets or anything.  Herd up the aggro onto you and then jump to use Frost on ALL of them.  Your jump height will be almost exactly the distance that a Frost attack enhanced for +50% Range will reach ...

Note that the Hop 'n' Pop can be used with ANY Cone attack (such as Empty Clips in the Dual Pistols set), it's just that Frost synergizes really well with it when Frost is enhanced for Range (of all things).

 


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Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

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3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Ah, another 2D Cone user who doesn't know they can be used in 3D as a PBAoE-ish attack when doing a Hop 'n' Pop.

Sigh. I know perfectly well how Cones work.

 

But the entire reason you're standing in the middle of the crowd in the first place is to apply a PBAoE debuff. A PBAoE debuff that is likely to fall off those mobs when you're playing your 'hop and pop' games.

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2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Sigh. I know perfectly well how Cones work.

 

But the entire reason you're standing in the middle of the crowd in the first place is to apply a PBAoE debuff. A PBAoE debuff that is likely to fall off those mobs when you're playing your 'hop and pop' games.

 

Well if you are in a group hopefully they should be mostly dead after you jump in and hit your debuffs. 

 

If you are solo then you pop in your Venomous Gas debuffs them for your Dreadful Wail to stun them, Envenom and Weaken to really debuff them, jump out and hit them with your cones.  Anything still left (bosses and up), jump back in close and use your ST attacks.

 

But even given how VG is 15 feet, you don't have to go too far away to keep 80% of a group in your VG.  And yes going 3D is also a option.  I may just switch out SJ for Fly and hover.  Thanks for that idea.

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2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Sigh. I know perfectly well how Cones work.

/em skeptical look


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Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

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24 minutes ago, Tacheyon said:

If you are solo then you pop in your Venomous Gas debuffs them for your Dreadful Wail to stun them, Envenom and Weaken to really debuff them, jump out and hit them with your cones.  Anything still left (bosses and up), jump back in close and use your ST attacks.

The Venomous gas debuffs are very short duration. So when you pop up/out, they fall off.

 

If you're planning to keep an entire spawn within Venomous Gas, then you're probably only 5 feet away from the nearest targets. Assuming you can perfectly hit your mark, that gives you a cone which is only 1.33 feet radius at the near approach and 4.02 feet radius at the far extent.

 

What I'm pointing out is that this is a classic 'looks good on paper' strategy that doesn't end up working out in game because it requires absolutely perfect positioning and an idealized spawn. Losing the Venomous Gas debuff to apply the inferior Howl debuff just doesn't make any sense.

 

 

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I have to agree that Poison is not cone friendly. You can argue that it's possible to use VG along with cones - because it is - but you'll hardly do it efficiently. Especially in a fast moving team which is where Poison usually shines. The time you'd spend on positioning your toon or worrying about hop-n-debuff is time wasted not using the splash-debuff mechanics properly.

 

Again, cones can work, they're just not great. Alternatively, /Rad would be a better option because of Irradiate alone.


Inverno - Ice/Ice Tanker

Stone Arrow - Earth/TA Troller

Timeless Record - Time/Sonic Defender

 

Excelsior

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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2020 at 5:08 AM, Redlynne said:

Ah, another 2D Cone user who doesn't know they can be used in 3D as a PBAoE-ish attack when doing a Hop 'n' Pop.

Yeah, I even do the hop n' pop with Shadow Maul (expanded cone = larger "radius" for my SR/DM tank).  It's awesome.  PUNCH from ABOVE!

 

I remember my son watching me farm (we were wondering who was faster) and he said, "You farm way different than I do... why do you always jump up?"  Oh, poor kid.  Because Throw Spines and the Mu Epic cone (that he doesn't like to use).  He was still faster because he's a twitchy twenty-something, and I'm old.  Still, the hop n' pop works very well with melee, I'd just jump a bit higher for "real" cones.

 

Then again, I would NEVER take the Neurotoxin Breath like @Tacheyon did in the original build posted herein.  Bad power, skip it.

 

Also, why on Earth would you not 4-slot Cloud Senses in Weaken?  A) You want some Accuracy and Endurance in there, since you might spam it; and B) 6.25% recharge!  Not to mention 2.25% max end.  Amazing set bonuses for just 4!  Also, Envenom would benefit from some Acc/Enh reduction as well, similarly, as it may be spammed.  YMMV.

 

I would probably skip the hold (Paralytic Poison), in fact I did on my Poison/Dark.  Dark Blast is such an active set, I never used the hold (or rarely); I would think that Sonic is just as active to maintain the stacking debuffs, so you probably don't want to deviate from those much (and when you do, it's to apply Envenom and Weaken).  Similar with the sleep/cone.  Unless you're going to solo a lot and want to sleep/hold stuff.  In team play, you'll likely never use the mez on this.

 

Poison defender means 2-trick pony:  Envenom and Weaken.  Sure, you can take a rez or antidote, but that's rarely used, if ever.  So you wisely have chosen a very active secondary and this should pair wonderfully.  But you're going to be sonic-blasting (debuffing, really) most of the time.  Dropping the Breath and Sleep cones will free up a lot of slots, too.  I six-slotted my Venomous Gas (3 to hit / 3 defense debuffs, mostly to lower end cost of the toggle).  Not sure about Sonic, but dark blast is so frequent, I was starting to notice endurance issues (not much, but it was there).  So I would build for better end management, keeping in mind how much I'm firing off my secondary powers (esp. Nightfall and Tenebrous Tentacles).

 

 

Edited by r0y

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On 5/23/2020 at 11:44 AM, Falsey said:

I have to agree that Poison is not cone friendly. You can argue that it's possible to use VG along with cones - because it is - but you'll hardly do it efficiently. Especially in a fast moving team which is where Poison usually shines. The time you'd spend on positioning your toon or worrying about hop-n-debuff is time wasted not using the splash-debuff mechanics properly.

I sort of agree, but as a Poison/Dark defender, the only thing that Poison needs you to be in PBAoE range for is the trap and the toggle.  Well, I can jumpin, set a trap, jump out (not fly, as you can't be hovering to place it.  Grrr.).  Anyway, I usually only use my toggle in teams and large mobs that I debuff, jump in... trap & blackstar (pbaoe nuke), then hop out.  I'll leave the toggle on for the following traps/nukes.  It's an active playstyle to be sure.

 

Also, because I hover, once the trap is placed, I re-hover and fly up, shoot down.  Cone. Cone. Siphon/Snipe *repeat*

 

/macro pt "powexectoggleoff Hover$$powexeclocation me Poison Trap" makes it a bit easier...

 

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Ah, Poison/Sonic ... I think I have one of these somewhere.

 

Digs around for a file

 

Ah yes, this failed experiment:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Force of Will
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom -- Acc-I(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(46), ShlBrk-%Dam(46), TchofLadG-%Dam(46)
Level 1: Shriek -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Apc-Acc/Rchg(5), Apc-Dam%(5), GldJvl-Dam%(7)
Level 2: Weaken -- SphIns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), SphIns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 4: Scream -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(25), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(25), GldJvl-Dam%(27)
Level 6: Weaken Resolve -- ShlBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ShlBrk-Acc/DefDeb(7), CldSns-%Dam(9), ShlBrk-%Dam(9), TchofLadG-%Dam(11), AchHee-ResDeb%(11)
Level 8: Mighty Leap -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(45)
Level 10: Shockwave -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), FrcFdb-Rechg%(13), PstBls-Dam%(15), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(15), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(17)
Level 12: Howl -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), PstBls-Dam%(19), JvlVll-Dam%(19), Ann-ResDeb%(21), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(21)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Shout -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 18: Tough -- GldArm-ResDam(A), GldArm-End/Res(31), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(31), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34), GldArm-3defTpProc(34)
Level 20: Unleash Potential -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 22: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(27), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(29), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(48)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Rct-Def/EndRdx(43), Rct-ResDam%(48)
Level 26: Poison Trap -- SprEnt-End/Rchg(A), Obl-%Dam(40), Arm-Dam%(42), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(42), UnbCns-Dam%(42), GldNet-Dam%(43)
Level 28: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Venomous Gas -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(33), DarWtcDsp-Rchg/EndRdx(33), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(33)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(36), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(39), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Obl-%Dam(39), ScrDrv-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- Acc-I(A)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 47: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Summon Disruptor -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(50), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(34), Mrc-Rcvry+(37)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-EndMod(37), PwrTrns-+Heal(37)
Level 50: Nerve Core Paragon
------------

 

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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

I had wanted to try and manifest a single target monster out of a Defender away from more standard choices and it just didn't end up hitting the mark. But it debuffs the heck out of everything and its mother!

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There are very compelling reasons to play poison/sonic.

Unreal st debuffing being the main one both in -res and -damage. 

 

It is a competent aoe debuffer, with solid aoe control options. But I personally wouldnt pair poison with sonic if my intent was to spam howl. That isnt to say you cant make it work, just that it isnt a smooth experience.

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