Weekly Discussion 68: Energy Melee

[JnEricsonx]

Based on how the forums were back then screaming about ET-I personally just found it a mild annoyance-how is this thread not 10 pages deep with screams to wake the dammned?

[Monos King]

Just now, JnEricsonx said:

Based on how the forums were back then screaming about ET-I personally just found it a mild annoyance-how is this thread not 10 pages deep with screams to wake the dammned?

There are, possibly literally, hundreds of threads on energy melee already of which that rage is distributed through. Some of which are receiving more traction than this one as we speak.

[JnEricsonx]

Say what?   Also, since it's been over 10 years....did ET always damage you when you used it?  And by how much?  Maybe cause my guy was EM/WP, the regen made me not notice the self damage as much?

Edited September 15, 2020 by JnEricsonx
More info.

[Bopper]

23 minutes ago, JnEricsonx said:

Say what?   Also, since it's been over 10 years....did ET always damage you when you used it?  And by how much?  Maybe cause my guy was EM/WP, the regen made me not notice the self damage as much?

The damage is 3.75 scale for Brutes/Tanks and 3.00 scale damage to Stalkers, if i recall correctly. Not sure what it was during live.

[JnEricsonx]

What does that equal at say level 50?  Just so I can do the mental math.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, JnEricsonx said:

Say what?   Also, since it's been over 10 years....did ET always damage you when you used it?  And by how much?  Maybe cause my guy was EM/WP, the regen made me not notice the self damage as much?

Energy Transfer
Melee, Foe Disorient, Self -Hit Points
Mastery of Energy Melee begins with the ability to transfer your own hit points into a punch that deals extreme Smashing and Energy damage. Energy Transfer has a good chance of Disorienting the target.

Stalker: Unlike other Stalker primary attack powers, Energy Transfer cannot land a critical hit. However, if this attack is executed successfully while Hidden, you can avoid the hit point loss to yourself and deal a massive blow with no penalty.

May 2008 numbers

Spoiler

http://web.archive.org/web/20080701040322/http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/

 

Tanker
Energy Melee    Lvl    Acc    Dmg    Act    Int    Cast    Rch    End    Rng    Radius    Arc    Area
Barrage    1    1    0.68    -    -    1.33s    2s    3.536    5ft    3ft    -    Sphere
Energy Punch    2    1    1    -    -    0.57s    4s    5.2    5ft    5ft    -    Sphere
Bone Smasher    4    1    1.64    -    -    1.5s    8s    8.528    5ft    8ft    -    Sphere
Taunt    10    1    -    -    -    1.67s    10s    -    70ft    15ft    -    Sphere
Whirling Hands    16    1    1    -    -    2.5s    14s    13    -    8ft    -    Sphere
Stun    20    1    0.25    -    -    1.8s    20s    10.192    5ft    9ft    -    Sphere
Build Up    28    1    -    -    -    1.17s    90s    5.2    -    -    -    Character
Energy Transfer    35    1.2    8.31    -    -    1s    20s    10.192    5ft    11ft    -    Sphere
Total Focus    38    1.2    3.56    -    -    3.3s    20s    18.511999    5ft    17ft    -    Sphere

 

Brute
Energy Melee    Lvl    Acc    Dmg    Act    Int    Cast    Rch    End    Rng    Radius    Arc    Area
Barrage    1    1    0.68    -    -    1.33s    2s    3.536    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Punch    1    1    1    -    -    0.57s    4s    5.2    5ft    -    -    Character
Bone Smasher    2    1    1.64    -    -    1.5s    8s    8.528    5ft    -    -    Character
Build Up    6    1    -    -    -    1.17s    90s    5.2    -    -    -    Character
Whirling Hands    8    1    1    -    -    2.5s    14s    13    -    8ft    -    Sphere
Taunt    12    1    -    -    -    1.67s    10s    -    70ft    15ft    -    Sphere
Total Focus    18    1.2    3.56    -    -    3.3s    20s    18.511999    5ft    -    -    Character
Stun    26    1    0.25    -    -    1.8s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Transfer    32    1.2    8.31    -    -    1s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character

 

Stalker
Energy Melee    Lvl    Acc    Dmg    Act    Int    Cast    Rch    End    Rng    Radius    Arc    Area
Barrage    1    1    0.68    -    -    1.33s    2s    3.536    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Punch    1    1    1    -    -    0.57s    4s    5.2    5ft    -    -    Character
Bone Smasher    2    1    1.64    -    -    1.5s    8s    8.528    5ft    -    -    Character
Assassin's Strike    6    1.2    1    -    2s    3s    15s    14.352    5ft    -    -    Character
Build Up    8    1    -    -    -    1.17s    90s    5.2    -    -    -    Character
Placate    12    1    -    -    -    1.5s    60s    -    50ft    -    -    Character
Stun    18    1    0.25    -    -    1.8s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Transfer    26    1.2    4.56    -    -    1s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character
Total Focus    32    1.2    3.56    -    -    3.3s    20s    18.511999    5ft    -    -    Character

 

Tanker (50)
Self: 166.83 Special damage (after 0.1 second delay)

Brute (50)
Self: 156.4 Special damage (after 0.1 second delay)

Stalker (50)
Self:(-(source.TeamSize(30) * 0.03 + 0.07) + 1 >= rand()) * 166.83 Special damage (after 0.1 second delay)
If source.kMeter < 0.9

 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Troo

[PeregrineFalcon]

I would revert Energy Transfer to its original animation that was 1 second long. And possibly add damage to Stun, as was done to Cobra Strike. When the changes are done Energy Melee should be the number 1 in single target damage. Which, in today's game where everyone favors AoE, shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

 

Will this make Energy Melee "OP"? Well, one set has to be the best at something. Why can't Energy Melee be the best at single target damage? It used to be, before the live devs decided that Energy Melee had to die.

 

Please don't add any special tricks or gimmicks to Energy Melee. When I want that I'll play SS or SJ, just make it the fun and fast set that it used to be.

 

Make Energy Melee Great Again!  🙂

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Energy Transfer
Melee, Foe Disorient, Self -Hit Points
Mastery of Energy Melee begins with the ability to transfer your own hit points into a punch that deals extreme Smashing and Energy damage. Energy Transfer has a good chance of Disorienting the target.

Stalker: Unlike other Stalker primary attack powers, Energy Transfer cannot land a critical hit. However, if this attack is executed successfully while Hidden, you can avoid the hit point loss to yourself and deal a massive blow with no penalty.

May 2008 numbers

  Reveal hidden contents

http://web.archive.org/web/20080701040322/http://coh.redtomax.com/data/powers/

 

Tanker
Energy Melee    Lvl    Acc    Dmg    Act    Int    Cast    Rch    End    Rng    Radius    Arc    Area
Barrage    1    1    0.68    -    -    1.33s    2s    3.536    5ft    3ft    -    Sphere
Energy Punch    2    1    1    -    -    0.57s    4s    5.2    5ft    5ft    -    Sphere
Bone Smasher    4    1    1.64    -    -    1.5s    8s    8.528    5ft    8ft    -    Sphere
Taunt    10    1    -    -    -    1.67s    10s    -    70ft    15ft    -    Sphere
Whirling Hands    16    1    1    -    -    2.5s    14s    13    -    8ft    -    Sphere
Stun    20    1    0.25    -    -    1.8s    20s    10.192    5ft    9ft    -    Sphere
Build Up    28    1    -    -    -    1.17s    90s    5.2    -    -    -    Character
Energy Transfer    35    1.2    8.31    -    -    1s    20s    10.192    5ft    11ft    -    Sphere
Total Focus    38    1.2    3.56    -    -    3.3s    20s    18.511999    5ft    17ft    -    Sphere

 

Brute
Energy Melee    Lvl    Acc    Dmg    Act    Int    Cast    Rch    End    Rng    Radius    Arc    Area
Barrage    1    1    0.68    -    -    1.33s    2s    3.536    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Punch    1    1    1    -    -    0.57s    4s    5.2    5ft    -    -    Character
Bone Smasher    2    1    1.64    -    -    1.5s    8s    8.528    5ft    -    -    Character
Build Up    6    1    -    -    -    1.17s    90s    5.2    -    -    -    Character
Whirling Hands    8    1    1    -    -    2.5s    14s    13    -    8ft    -    Sphere
Taunt    12    1    -    -    -    1.67s    10s    -    70ft    15ft    -    Sphere
Total Focus    18    1.2    3.56    -    -    3.3s    20s    18.511999    5ft    -    -    Character
Stun    26    1    0.25    -    -    1.8s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Transfer    32    1.2    8.31    -    -    1s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character

 

Stalker
Energy Melee    Lvl    Acc    Dmg    Act    Int    Cast    Rch    End    Rng    Radius    Arc    Area
Barrage    1    1    0.68    -    -    1.33s    2s    3.536    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Punch    1    1    1    -    -    0.57s    4s    5.2    5ft    -    -    Character
Bone Smasher    2    1    1.64    -    -    1.5s    8s    8.528    5ft    -    -    Character
Assassin's Strike    6    1.2    1    -    2s    3s    15s    14.352    5ft    -    -    Character
Build Up    8    1    -    -    -    1.17s    90s    5.2    -    -    -    Character
Placate    12    1    -    -    -    1.5s    60s    -    50ft    -    -    Character
Stun    18    1    0.25    -    -    1.8s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character
Energy Transfer    26    1.2    4.56    -    -    1s    20s    10.192    5ft    -    -    Character
Total Focus    32    1.2    3.56    -    -    3.3s    20s    18.511999    5ft    -    -    Character

 

Tanker (50)
Self: 166.83 Special damage (after 0.1 second delay)

Brute (50)
Self: 156.4 Special damage (after 0.1 second delay)

Stalker (50)
Self:(-(source.TeamSize(30) * 0.03 + 0.07) + 1 >= rand()) * 166.83 Special damage (after 0.1 second delay)
If source.kMeter < 0.9

 

 

Great find. Wow, I did not know Energy Punch used to have a 0.57s cast time. I'd love to have that again. As for Energy Transfer, the damage it's showing looks like a bug in their program. It's including the self inflicted Special Damage (funny enough, I had the same bug in my current project of recreating City of Data, so I also had to fix my logic). So you're getting 4.56 + 3.75 = 8.31.

 

1 hour ago, JnEricsonx said:

What does that equal at say level 50?  Just so I can do the mental math.

Troo already showed you the old numbers. For the new numbers, the special damage is:

Brute: 156.4

Tank: 198.11 (Due to Page 4 Tanker Buffs to melee damage, the self inflicted damage also went up)

Stalker: 166.83

[JnEricsonx]

Sorry, I didn't notice the 2008 click button.   And damn, I guess ET is not something you wanna use too much unless you self heal pretty well I guess?  I honestly don't remember how my EM/WP brute rolled back in the day.  Considering at level 50 you have what, around 1100-1200 HP or so?  That's a nice chunk.

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, JnEricsonx said:

Sorry, I didn't notice the 2008 click button.   And damn, I guess ET is not something you wanna use too much unless you self heal pretty well I guess?  I honestly don't remember how my EM/WP brute rolled back in the day.  Considering at level 50 you have what, around 1100-1200 HP or so?  That's a nice chunk.

It all depends. For a Tank/Brute, the damage is equivalent to approximately 10% of your base health while for the stalker it's roughly 14% of base health. But Stalkers get the benefit of their crit preventing the special damage, so they can somewhat mitigate it in that way. For the most part, I don't think you have to worry about punching yourself to death unless your build is already taken a lot of damage.

[nihilii]

Bring back the old ET animation.
Port the Dominator Total Focus change (faster animation, still looks nice) to TF.

Done. This is all EM needs.

EM does not need an AoE buff or any fancy new mechanic that would distract from restoring/improving the original feel of the set, which, I think EVERYONE who got to play with old ET, would agree was awesome. I don't mean to poo poo on anyone's suggestions here; but there was something that was beautiful, and it would be better to make that beautiful thing available again. New mechanics can be used on new stuff or on stuff that was never fun to start with.

[Croax]

I look at EM from a Stalkers view and compared to all other Stalker Primaries it is just bad. Single Target Damage is lower than StJ, Psi, Savage, Ice, Fire and Dual Blades. These are the ones i personally tested on the test server. Even Broadsword was better just because it had crits on the Heavy hitters. Not critting is a huge nerf to stalker attacks. For Area Danage it is a much easier comparison, because it has none. The secondary effect is weaker because you either would want an area attack to effect as many enemys as posdible (Mass Levitate for example) or it should be applied in a fast manner to shine ( Kinetic Melees -Dam). So we are looking at a Attack Set with no Area Danage, useless secondary effects and the worst single target damage of all Stalker Primaries. Even if it would be good on one of these 3 categories i would not play it. For me you have to check at least 2 boxes (Single Target, Area, Utility) or be the undisputed Number one in one of the categories to be worth playing ( Elec Melee Nr. 1 Area).If someone asks me which Stalker Primary is best for Area it is Elec Melee. For Single Target Damage i would say StJ and Savage. Utility is not asked much but probably a Powerset with 'Parry-equivalents'. But there is not a single szenario where i would recommend Energy Melee it is just so bad.

 

If you would want to improve it, the things to look have been said over the last decade. Animation Time and crits are my suggestions on how to improve this set. And if you just don't touch the area aspect and just pimp out the single Target Damage, People will just keep on playing Super Strength, Titan Weapon, Street Justice and Savage. But EM would not be total garbage anymore. The PvP meta has long ago moved to something else and is not comparable to 2008. No one would be pissed because you buff Energy Melee. Everyone would like it.

[Tsuko]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

My suggestion is simple. Reverse the July 9, 2008 Energy Melee changes. Just give that a try. Energy Melee really was that good.

 

July 9, 2008
We knew this one would be controversial. There's a new patch hitting the CoX live servers today..

 

The changes that have most players up in arms are the nerf to the stun dealt by Total Focus and an animation change to Energy Transfer, changes that hit the Tank, Brute and Stalker classes. The new animation, while more visually impressive than the old, is slower; an Energy Transfer used to take one second, and now takes 2.67 seconds. (For those that don't know, Energy Transfer is a damaging attack that also has a good chance to stun.)

 

Despite the usual high levels of communication from the developers, some players are unhappy and consider this a crippling nerf; however, nobody seems to be particularly surprised that some form of nerfing has taken place. Energy Melee really was that good.

 

 

argh :x

 

I wish i never see this again...

 

[Tsuko]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Bring back the old ET animation.
Port the Dominator Total Focus change (faster animation, still looks nice) to TF.

Done. This is all EM needs.

EM does not need an AoE buff or any fancy new mechanic that would distract from restoring/improving the original feel of the set, which, I think EVERYONE who got to play with old ET, would agree was awesome. I don't mean to poo poo on anyone's suggestions here; but there was something that was beautiful, and it would be better to make that beautiful thing available again. New mechanics can be used on new stuff or on stuff that was never fun to start with.

 

[Frostbiter]

I really like the set but the way I see it it suffers from two issues:

 

Animation times are slow. I like the animations, they look great but they feel like I'm watching my character move underwater.

Only one AoE. Not as big of an issue but hte set should have at least two to bring it in line with other Brute sets.

[Golden Azrael]

I don't mind the balladic nature of the Energy animations.  I don't mind the Energy Transfer Pom Poms.  It gives the impressive the mob has been hit by a truck.  A touch theatrical...but it is a superhero game...

 

I'm certainly not opposed to it being the single target big hitter.  Super Tanker mode.  Yes.  It's old remit.

 

Hit slower.  Hit harder.  That seems to be the game mechanic in general.  So if the animation takes longer make it hit harder.  Pre-Nerf seems to be what some are asking for.

 

But it's still very 2004.  Not 'that' interesting in the development of the game on live with Dual Blade, TWs and the new Energy Dominator Melee mechanic.

 

So one way of two birds and one stone would be to use the Energy Domi' Mechanic (which I find quite exciting) to 'get there' on single target damage.

 

We get the damage.  And adds interest to the set.  Simple solution.  Try it on beta.  It aint going to do no harm there.

 

As for OP.  Even if it was the single target big hitter.  It would still be left in the dust by AoE this, that and the other.  You see an Energy Melee Brute with a 2ndary with a damage aura.  I dunno.  The tank fight seems to take much longer.  I do like the disorient on the energy melee set.  And have been exploring that more.

 

And someone mentioned this.  I think each tanker should specialise in 'something' eg. You have Rage for Superstrength...TWs has its mechanic and uber place...Dual Blades has all those combos...Ice seems to be 'hot' on AoE…(cos it sucks at Single Target...) since the tank changes...so having EM hit single target hardest is fine by me.

 

It gives you a reason to roll each type of tank. 

 

Azrael.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

8 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I would revert Energy Transfer to its original animation that was 1 second long. And possibly add damage to Stun, as was done to Cobra Strike. When the changes are done Energy Melee should be the number 1 in single target damage. Which, in today's game where everyone favors AoE, shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

 

Make Energy Melee Great Again!  🙂

I do like the idea of adding damage to the stun.  I'd also like the Stun to be an AoE stun as well.  Energy seems to have a 2ndary disorient specialism going on.  Whirling Hands does have that 30% chance.  And to have Whirling's dis' stack with another AoE Stun specialism would be interesting.  60% change to stun AoE with 100% on the single target.  Splash stun?

 

Cobra strike benefitted from that bit of damage.

 

No.1 in damage?  Sure.  Single target.  Np.

 

Azrael.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[0th Power]

I am in the revert the changes camp, but I have a couple out of left field ideas:

 

Charge mechanism for ET - the longer you hold down the button, the more damage you do to the target and self

splash stun/kb(d) - instead of splash damage you have a chance for stun or kb/d on nearby targets 

 

edit - also, please add a stun damage proc

Edited September 15, 2020 by 0th Power

[ForeverLaxx]

6 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Charge mechanism for ET - the longer you hold down the button, the more damage you do to the target and self

Not likely to be able to implement something like this due to how the game engine and interface works. In order to allow "charge up while button held" mechanics to work for clickers, they'd have to find a different way to move powers around since holding mouse click on a power is how you move them currently.

 

As a personal aside, I pray they do not implement something like this. I detested the "charging" mechanic of abilities in Champions Online and would utterly loathe to see that show up here. It would completely disinterest me from the set entirely, even if it ended up being a literal "hold button to win the game" affair.

 

And, as an addendum to previous post, I'll just add here that my desire to see Energy Melee return to its old title of "King of ST Burst" doesn't necessarily mean I want it to be the king of ST DPS. Being able to dump out a large salvo of ST damage is where I think the set should be, but likely not also the best at dishing out the most ST damage over time. I liked the "spikey" nature of the old ways.

[siolfir]

Add me to the chorus of "revert the nerfs," and I'll also include the "eliminate the Stalker nerfs" for the set as well.

 

Stalkers have lower stun percentage chances with all of the attacks except for Total Focus (which is 100% for everybody), are missing the only AoE, and in exchange they get Stun. Which is, unless you were trying to stack stuns to break Tanker mez protection (back when mez mattered in PvP) is a completely useless garbage power that doesn't deserve to exist in any melee set, let alone one that has a stun attached to every other power in it. Energy Transfer and Total Focus have either no or reduced critical damage respectively. Basically, make the set have the same secondary effects across the ATs, and allow the AT inherent to actually work correctly. Then port whatever you do for Stalkers over to Scrappers, replacing Assassin's Strike with Whirling Hands and Placate with Confront.

 

What I don't want is a gimmick to add AoE damage that keeps long animation times (Rad Melee already exists, I've played it), nor do I want a BS momentum gimmick for fast/slow/fast speeds on attack chains. I want a reliable, hard-hitting set with a fluid attack chain, that can do top-tier damage for both burst and sustained durations. Old Energy Melee did that, and saying "old Energy Transfer is too good" is not a reasonable excuse: as I've pointed out before, the "fix" for Stalkers not doing enough damage was to essentially give every Stalker primary an "old Energy Transfer" tier single-target attack (Assassin's Strike with a Focus critical is a scale 5.0 attack in a 0.67-1.67 second animation, with 1 second the "default"; Energy Transfer is scale 4.56 and was a 1 second animation).

 

Even with the changes reverted it would still probably only be 3rd or 4th in single target DPS for melee sets behind sets that leverage procs and/or have in-set -resistance.

Edited September 16, 2020 by siolfir

[Golden Azrael]

22 hours ago, 0th Power said:

I am in the revert the changes camp, but I have a couple out of left field ideas:

 

Charge mechanism for ET - the longer you hold down the button, the more damage you do to the target and self

splash stun/kb(d) - instead of splash damage you have a chance for stun or kb/d on nearby targets 

 

edit - also, please add a stun damage proc

I like the idea of splash stun correlated with the damage done.

 

They could add that into the Domi Energy builder for damage mechanic.

 

A heavy damage stun melee set.

 

That is energy at its basis.  To make it more so is no foul.

 

Azrael.

[Troo]

Seems to be fairly consistent feedback with little argument at this point.

• Consensus: Something should be done.
• Many Energy Melee enthusiasts would be okay with something simple.
• Some have more something more in mind but would be okay with simple.
• a few would like a revamped power set named Energy Melee (I think these provide important feedback. just toward future power sets)

Then again, this topic may have previously exhausted folks.

[M3z]

Just revert ET animation and maybe lower TF animation by .5 seconds or something.

 

Don't give the set more AOE, don't make the set like energy assault for doms where you have to have some special energized circumstance to do a short ET animation.

 

Seriously, just revert the ET animation. Would love to have another somewhat viable melee set in pvp other than super strength and psi melee lol.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Seems to be fairly consistent feedback with little argument at this point.

• Consensus: Something should be done.
• Many Energy Melee enthusiasts would be okay with something simple.
• Some have more something more in mind but would be okay with simple.
• a few would like a revamped power set named Energy Melee (I think these provide important feedback. just toward future power sets)

Then again, this topic may have previously exhausted folks.

/truth

 

We've had several long-running threads that have all essentially landed just as outlined by Troo.

[KC4800]

Here's my perspective and what I can add:

 

I never played a Brute on live, I never played Energy Melee on Live.

I created an EM/Inv Brute on HC and he plays the way I think a Brute should play. Relentlessly attacking and punching foes in the face to build and maintain fury.

 

With that said, he was tremendously an endurance hog leveling up. I could not really constantly attack and build and maintain Fury in my low 30s. Always stopping to rest just kills Brute momentum. All these ST attacks do not need to be this End heavy.  Something felt way off leveling up. For instance. ST blasts on a blaster dont need ENDRDX, why should ST melee attacks on a Brute? I have played Scrappers that could attack constantly in their mid 30's, but not this Brute. NOw that he's incarnate its not an issue, but it was leveling up.

Edited September 16, 2020 by KC4800