Seeing that an 8 player team defeated Hami - What do the Devs think of the power creep ?

[Rejolt]

City of Heroes was moving deeper into incarnate content that was more challenging with more powers to come to face it. You were always going to be stupid overpowered for the older content. That's why stuff like the LGTF and LRSF have a shard drop at the end and not a Thread/higher level incarnate reward.

 

We were going to get more things like Apex/Tin Mage or trials. Battalion was going to own us (apparently). It's up to the Homecoming/Volunteers if they want to give us a challenge instead or just enjoy CoH for what it ended up getting to.

[DougGraves]

3 hours ago, Ironblade said:

What's your point?  You're describing things that, as you correctly state, do not require skill.

We were talking about about something that does require skill - in both planning and execution.

 

"I don't care if players want to use godmode to do whatever they want.  I do mind when I join a team and a godmode player solos the team content and ruins my experience. "

 

If you read the thread you will know what you are responding to.

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Because casual gamers who do not play to the style that the others play at don't realize the gravity of the situation. I mean, yeah, sure, share away. However, this is where guides are helpful to help people understand *why* they were able to pull this off rather than leave it to speculation.

I was going to touch up on the "aspire to be comment" but it looks like Darmain beat me to it. The only expectations we should have is the expectations we place among ourselves, not what others believe we should be expected to aspire to be. I have been saying this since I was in my 20's. Too many people always telling you that you have to be this to win the game of life...you win the game of life whenever you achieve your goals, not the goals others place on you.

I hear you and what you are saying though, I just do not believe that it is realistic to think that this is a goal that everyone wants to reach. Reach for the stars...if that is where you wish to go. Know what I mean?

But yeah, if somebody in that group would make a guide on this, hell, I myself would love to have a peek.  😉

There are already plenty of guides in existence that can help nearly anyone figure out the builds and strategy to do this. This isn't some super sekritt achievement that no one can figure out. Just reads the hundreds of pages of guides already in existence on various AT and the Market forums.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

 

"I don't care if players want to use godmode to do whatever they want.  I do mind when I join a team and a godmode player solos the team content and ruins my experience. "

 

If you read the thread you will know what you are responding to.

I honestly don't mind. If it's so easy I just drop join another team or form my own. Not seeing the issue here. 

 

Forming your own team of like minded individuals isn't difficult. Trying to get folks to play the way you personally want is.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

There are already plenty of guides in existence that can help nearly anyone figure out the builds and strategy to do this. This isn't some super sekritt achievement that no one can figure out. Just reads the hundreds of pages of guides already in existence on various AT and the Market forums.

There is a guide on how to beat Hammi with an 8 Man team?

[Glacier Peak]

Something something, they play different than me, something something, make everyone play my way suggestions, many disagreements, eventual condescension, retorts, and then the thread gets locked.

 

Next?

[Widower]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Something something, they play different than me, something something, make everyone play my way suggestions, many disagreements, eventual condescension, retorts, and then the thread gets locked.

 

Next?

*insert humorous remark and/or exhortation not to consume the faces of others here*

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Something something, they play different than me, something something, make everyone play my way suggestions, many disagreements, eventual condescension, retorts, and then the thread gets locked.

 

Next?

You left out the memes, so 95% accuracy isn’t anything to sneeze at.

[Crysis]

I always laugh at these threads about difficulty in the game, challenges, skill, etc.

 

Then I whistle around Night Ward or DA playing missions on +4/x8 BY MYSELF, and dying repeatedly because most of my builds can’t handle that kind of difficulty.  And the ENTIRE zones are overwhelmingly empty.  

 

Difficult content exists aplenty in this game for those that wish for it.  AND NOBODY PLAYS IT.  This is a casual game for casual players for the most part.  When someone figures out how to speed something via exploiting game mechanics (in the skill sense of the word, not the hack sense), it simply represents someone trying to tune the difficulty meter to their liking.  

 

TLDR; Night Ward awaits your power creeping butt.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Crysis

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

I always laugh at these threads about difficulty in the game, challenges, skill, etc.

 

Then I whistle around Night Ward or DA playing missions on +4/x8 BY MYSELF, and dying repeatedly because most of my builds can’t handle that kind of difficulty.  And the ENTIRE zones are overwhelmingly empty.  

 

Difficult content exists aplenty in this game for those that wish for it.  AND NOBODY PLAYS IT.  This is a casual game for casual players for the most part.  When someone figures out how to speed something via exploiting game mechanics (in the skill sense of the word, not the hack sense), it simply represents someone trying to tune the difficulty meter to their liking.  

 

TLDR; Night Ward awaits your power creeping butt.

The existance of harder content doesn't invalidate the point that standard content isn't providing enough challenge. And challenging oneself in a solo environment isn't really where power creep is a problem anyway, it doesn't matter how op or not you are solo. What matters is the team game where people are finding that teaming isn't a huge amount of fun when others on the team can solo the same content at max difficulty.

 

I'm personally not of the opinion that harder content alone will solve all the problems anyway. If it were my game I would be seriously looking at the power gap between the lowest and highest performing characters before all else. Currently the game cannot really be balanced because the gap between SO's and purpled out IO's is so wide. Given how unpopular global nerfs to IO's would be it might be worth instead buffing SO's to narrow that gap. Then the game can be made harder across the board without leaving anyone behind.

[Ukase]

19 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

Right.  Many people don't play godmode because they can't look at a forum post on a godmode build and look at another forum post on how to farm or just make money on the market.  Because it takes so much skill to look those things up and then copy them.

 

But I do need some explanation.  When a character has soft capped defense, what player skill is required to stop enemies from hitting them?  Does the RNG do a player skill check before deciding if the attack hits?

 

Because see players who farm, possibly just door sitting to do it, copy someone else's build, and then with huge IO set bonuses can solo x8 spawns at level 25 - I don't see any player skill that is obvious.  But perhaps you can explain to me the skill that they have that I am not seeing.

Clearly, there are some assumptions you're making about the folks that can handle an 8 man hami. 

Did you know that Hamidon dishes out untyped damage - no amount of s/l defense, or resist cap can help you against hamidon. 
Did you also know that the "air crackle" from Tyrant is auto-hit? No amount of defense is going to help you. Resist will help to a point, but if you remain in the same spot (and sometimes those crackles are invisible to a player for whatever reason) - you will be defeated, and quickly. 

While it's certainly true anyone with an inclination to spend time settling on a farm build can farm at +4/8 while they sleep, literally, placing a fire farmer and the folks that can do an 8 man hami in the same bucket is laughable. I don't want to take anything away from the first few farmers who figured out how to slot for cap resist and fire defense - it was clever. But planning to sit in the middle of a map where the npcs are specifically designed by the player to dish out damage you have the most protection against, compared to hami who dishes out damage you cannot mitigate, aside from going for max regen. max dps and timely use of EoE - I would say, if it's so easy, you do it. Get those 80 merits. 


 

[Xeres]

I'm not a dev (obvi) but here's my take.  Yes there's power creep.  I think the answer is to tune up mobs than nerf sets or incarnate.  It's probably easier.

[Luminara]

30 minutes ago, parabola said:

The existance of harder content doesn't invalidate the point that standard content isn't providing enough challenge.

 

The majority of the standard content wasn't considered particularly challenging when all we had were SOs and Hamidon enhancements, despite ED, GDN, the Purple Patch and numerous other changes to create a semblance of challenge.  I know, because I was one of those dipsticks out there creating challenge for myself by playing a character with 0.55 damage scale attacks, post-ED, post-GDN, post-Purple Patch, no +Def, no +Res, no range to keep me safe, no status protection and no -Res, and not even slotting my attacks with Damage enhancements, taking on GMs solo and winning, without IO sets, without Incarnate abilities, without temp powers, without anything but my knowledge of game mechanics and the determination to succeed.

 

That same content was ~3 years old when the Invention system was released.  And 6.5 years old when the Incarnate system landed.  None of the existing content was ever going to become more challenging before these systems were released, because the problem has never been IOs or Incarnate abilities, or the base mechanics, or balance issues, it was the age of the game and the experience of the players.  What IOs and Incarnates accomplished was not to make the game less challenging, because that challenge was gone before either of those systems were implemented, but instead, to offer the opportunity for everyone, regardless of capability or experience, to rise to the same level.

 

This is the nature of MMORPGs.  The longer people play, the more they know and the less challenging they are.  Changing SOs won't make anything more challenging.  Making bigger hit point piñatas won't make anything more challenging.  Nerfing IO sets or Incarnate abilities won't make anything more challenging.  Shoehorning newer content mechanics into older content won't make it more challenging.  Challenge comes from the facing unexpected and unknown, from moving forward, not backward.  Challenge comes from blindly stepping into something and trying, failing, getting back up and trying again, until you succeed, and succeed again, and again, until you've turned the challenge into commonplace.  We did that long before IOs were on the drawing board, before Incarnates were even an idea in the head of one of the developers.

 

IO sets and Incarnate abilities don't obviate the challenge that older content offers because that challenge was met and matched a very, very long time ago.  The challenge is in the newer content, as it should be.  We can't roll the clock back 16 years.  We can't unlearn what we've learned.  We can only move forward.  That's life, in the game or in the real world.

[Ukase]

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

This is the nature of MMORPGs.  The longer people play, the more they know and the less challenging they are. 

I'd say this nails it on the noggin. 

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, Solarverse said:

There is a guide on how to beat Hammi with an 8 Man team?

No, there are guides on how to beat Hami. An 8 man team of skilled players could figure that out and extrapolate it down to 8. Which they did.

 

Hamidon is actually a very simple encounter compared to other "raid" level type bosses in other games.

 

He just isn't that complicated. Hell he's not that complicated when compared to iTrials and other content in this game.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, parabola said:

The existance of harder content doesn't invalidate the point that standard content isn't providing enough challenge. And challenging oneself in a solo environment isn't really where power creep is a problem anyway, it doesn't matter how op or not you are solo. What matters is the team game where people are finding that teaming isn't a huge amount of fun when others on the team can solo the same content at max difficulty.

 

I'm personally not of the opinion that harder content alone will solve all the problems anyway. If it were my game I would be seriously looking at the power gap between the lowest and highest performing characters before all else. Currently the game cannot really be balanced because the gap between SO's and purpled out IO's is so wide. Given how unpopular global nerfs to IO's would be it might be worth instead buffing SO's to narrow that gap. Then the game can be made harder across the board without leaving anyone behind.

Standard content is standard. If you want challenge dial you difficulty up beyond standard and go to zones like night ward, and pick missions mobs that aren't just council.

 

For those of us who are here for casual play we have standard content.

[golstat2003]

16 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

The majority of the standard content wasn't considered particularly challenging when all we had were SOs and Hamidon enhancements, despite ED, GDN, the Purple Patch and numerous other changes to create a semblance of challenge.  I know, because I was one of those dipsticks out there creating challenge for myself by playing a character with 0.55 damage scale attacks, post-ED, post-GDN, post-Purple Patch, no +Def, no +Res, no range to keep me safe, no status protection and no -Res, and not even slotting my attacks with Damage enhancements, taking on GMs solo and winning, without IO sets, without Incarnate abilities, without temp powers, without anything but my knowledge of game mechanics and the determination to succeed.

 

That same content was ~3 years old when the Invention system was released.  And 6.5 years old when the Incarnate system landed.  None of the existing content was ever going to become more challenging before these systems were released, because the problem has never been IOs or Incarnate abilities, or the base mechanics, or balance issues, it was the age of the game and the experience of the players.  What IOs and Incarnates accomplished was not to make the game less challenging, because that challenge was gone before either of those systems were implemented, but instead, to offer the opportunity for everyone, regardless of capability or experience, to rise to the same level.

 

This is the nature of MMORPGs.  The longer people play, the more they know and the less challenging they are.  Changing SOs won't make anything more challenging.  Making bigger hit point piñatas won't make anything more challenging.  Nerfing IO sets or Incarnate abilities won't make anything more challenging.  Shoehorning newer content mechanics into older content won't make it more challenging.  Challenge comes from the facing unexpected and unknown, from moving forward, not backward.  Challenge comes from blindly stepping into something and trying, failing, getting back up and trying again, until you succeed, and succeed again, and again, until you've turned the challenge into commonplace.  We did that long before IOs were on the drawing board, before Incarnates were even an idea in the head of one of the developers.

 

IO sets and Incarnate abilities don't obviate the challenge that older content offers because that challenge was met and matched a very, very long time ago.  The challenge is in the newer content, as it should be.  We can't roll the clock back 16 years.  We can't unlearn what we've learned.  We can only move forward.  That's life, in the game or in the real world.

Best post on the subject.

[Parabola]

19 minutes ago, Luminara said:

The majority of the standard content wasn't considered particularly challenging when all we had were SOs and Hamidon enhancements, despite ED, GDN, the Purple Patch and numerous other changes to create a semblance of challenge.

I don't think challenge is the issue. As people are very fond of saying anyone who wants challenge can intentionally gimp thier character and have at it. The problem as I see it is the team dynamic and the difficulty of the game is simply the context that dynamic exists in.

 

The game overall may never have been all that difficult but I do think the balance between the AT's and the general team experience was better before IO's and incarnates. There is no rolling the clock back but we can examine where we are now and see if the game is in the best shape it can be. I don't necessarily want to nerf anything (hence the SO's suggestion rather than blanket IO nerfs) but I do want to see improvements to the teaming experience at the high end, particularly for support AT's.

[Dahkness]

Coh is ez mode. I play for nostalgic. It’s not ran by a company. Just enjoy what you have and that we have it back.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, parabola said:

I don't think challenge is the issue. As people are very fond of saying anyone who wants challenge can intentionally gimp thier character and have at it. The problem as I see it is the team dynamic and the difficulty of the game is simply the context that dynamic exists in.

 

The game overall may never have been all that difficult but I do think the balance between the AT's and the general team experience was better before IO's and incarnates. There is no rolling the clock back but we can examine where we are now and see if the game is in the best shape it can be. I don't necessarily want to nerf anything (hence the SO's suggestion rather than blanket IO nerfs) but I do want to see improvements to the teaming experience at the high end, particularly for support AT's.

 

The problem they're currently facing is not that they don't bring anything to high end teaming, it's that they bring too much at every level.  Yes, you can take 8 of any archetype and blitz any content in the game.  8 blasters, all at or above the Defense soft cap, all dumping insane amounts of damage.  8 brutes, 8 scrappers, 8 tankers, you name it, 8 of anything turns into a spiked, flaming, acid spewing wrecking ball with a weapons-grade plutonium core, and they don't really need anyone buffing them... they don't even specifically need debuff, or controls, because they have access to those, too, in *PPs.

 

But support archetypes have been doing that since Issue 0.  It's only with Incarnate abilities and IO sets that the rest of the archetypes are catching up with them.  And what 8 of anything else can do with billion inf* builds, the right *PP powers and T4 Incarnates, 8 support characters can do with one to three powers apiece... unslotted, without a single IO set bonus, *PP power or Incarnate ability.  That's the problem.  They're too powerful, not lacking in utility or versatility or power.  They're game breakers, by design.  They can't be improved without making them even more grossly overpowered in standard content, and nerfing everything to compensate for support archetypes being overpowered isn't feasible.  The problem has to be addressed in the end content, tweaks and changes to make support more desirable, or changes to specific mechanics (which was attempted with the Purple Patch), because the problem can't be addressed in any other way without creating even bigger problems.

 

Support has been taking a steaming dump on team dynamics since the game was released.  Pinball Wizards.  Repeat Offenders.  People like me.  And the perceived lack of value in end-game content... I don't view that as a problem with the game, or with support archetypes, or with IO sets, or with Incarnate abilities, I view it as a problem with the way the content was designed and implemented, and, frankly, a relief, because I enjoy support archetypes, I enjoy being versatile, I enjoy having that much power at my disposal, and I enjoy knowing that I can finally, after all of these years, play the characters I want without feeling like I have the burden of a team's performance resting entirely on my shoulders.

 

Yeah, support archetypes may feel that they're not needed because of IO set bonuses and Incarnate abilities.  But they're also not unwelcome, and they're free in a way they weren't before, thanks to those bonuses and abilities.  No-one's actually necessary or specifically wanted for end-game content, it's an even playing field.  No-one is pigeonholed into anything in the end game.  No-one has to feel like they're personally accountable if something goes wrong, because everyone is equally capable and powerful, and accountable.  That's something to celebrate, not complain about.

 

Other MMORPGs are designed so everyone is only barely capable of surviving, everyone has to be perfect, everyone has to have split-second timing, and every "role" is expected to do exactly one thing and nothing else, because the fate of every encounter as part of a group is wholly dependent on it.  But we aren't machines, we shouldn't be required to play like machines to succeed.  Here, we aren't treated like machines, we have the freedom to play in different ways.  A support character can forego spamming controls, or buffing constantly, or being a "healer".  A support character can jump into melee and start hammering away with attacks, or stand back and blast, or pick up stragglers, or use that nuke that they've rarely had a use for in the rest of the game, or just entertain the team with jokes and humorous observations.  Co* is where support characters can play, not work a second job.  Yes, it means some people will be dissatisfied because they don't feel like teams need them, but they're overlooking the fact that teams don't need anyone or anything.  Support archetypes are no more or less needed than any other archetype... but they're also no more or less welcome.  Realizing that will go a lot farther toward solving the perceived problem than changing the game ever could.

[Apparition]

Part of me hopes that the Homecoming developers one day change the Council in all missions and TFs to The Awakened for one day and one day only as a practical joke, just to see the reactions from the “This game is too easy, please nerf!” crowd.

[jubakumbi]

On 10/13/2020 at 3:56 AM, Vulpoid said:

I am not sure why how other people play should be of any concern to you.

I just had to quote this and comment on it.

From my POV, this is the only question that needs asking the vast majority of the time in the vast majority of MMO threads I see.

 

And now my POV. (Rant by many standards, but hey, why not?)

 

So many busy-bodies worried so much about what other kids are doing...

 

Why is it so very hard for so many poeple to just accept reality, accept the game for what it is, without this constant refrain of "I see a problem, something must change" like it's a Live game that coulds go offline at any moment, or that it's some MOBA that if not perfectly tuned to please every player, the game will die, etc.

 

Why is it do hard to just let the game be what it is, and if you want challenge, or not, work within the confines of the games code and structure to create and play the challenge you enjoy?

It's so easy with this game, in this state, to tune your character to s specific 'power level', it's awesome.

 

Yet, we get cries of "NO" because that means each player has to pay attention and use personal effort, they cannot blame everything on the mean old developers for not making the game fun for them, IMO, a complete lack of personal resposibility of ones gaming time.

 

There are no 'devs', there are volunteers that are nice anough to add stuff and fix the actual bugs, and do what they feel like doing, because 'voluteers', 'hobby', 'game', 'playtime', rather than appeasing the masses for profit.

Accept that the the game in it's current state is something that, like a PnP game, the individual has to use thier own judgement to restrict themsleves into the RP world they choose.

 

Why is this so hard?

Why give all of your power over to others, when you can determine the challenge level?

Play the game, create your own challenge and stop looking to the universe to give you what you can make yourself, this is my POV.

 

And finally, the one everyone moans and groans over - maybe, just maybe, if there is 'nothing left', if there is no challenge, if it's just not fun in the current state, then maybe it's just time for another game, or, in this specific case, time to learn to code, so you can invoke the changes you think 'we just cannot live without'...personal choices.

[fitzsimmons]

Try to run something where enhancements have no effect.  OMG it's terrible!  It's the worst option ever!  Solo an ITF with that option enabled, I'll give you a gold star.

[Hew]

26 minutes ago, fitzsimmons said:

Try to run something where enhancements have no effect.  OMG it's terrible!  It's the worst option ever!  Solo an ITF with that option enabled, I'll give you a gold star.

Slot fenders, corrs, trollers, or (gasp) mms. Thats all the slotting you need. Still have problems on your team? Slot more of the aforementioned.

 

Luminara's tl;dr post is accurate. Support ATs in this game are game breaking. Period. Forget IO slotting at all. You have a nut you need to crack? Slot more support.

 

 

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Why is this so hard?

Why give all of your power over to others, when you can determine the challenge level?

 

It's not really about personal challenge.  It's a result of standard MMORPG design with role specification and content designed to be completed within the boundaries of those role specifications.  If your class role doesn't fit within the design of the content, or the content is easy enough to be completed without your class, you can be excluded.  And in those MMORPGs, that means you don't get the loot, you don't get the new abilities, you don't get to play the content, you don't get to make new friends, etc.  So people expect to have a specific role and purpose within a group, and apply that expectation to this game.  They're afraid that they'll be denied something if they aren't given specificity within the group and the content.