Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Monos King]

Just now, Emperor Cole said:

Love this idea. It should have a watery effect on top of the glue area.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe a bluish-white recolor of the patch from Corrosive Vial in Experimentation.

 

 

Food for thought.

 

[GM ColdSpark]

Folks - feedback only please - less of the personal attacks and poking holes at one another. I've done some tidying on the last couple of pages, if you feel that any nuggets of genuine feedback were lost in there, feel free to repost them but without the calling out this time please. Thanks.

[Tath99]

I am probably late to the conversation, but I would like to add a note of caution regards making changes to Entangling Arrow as an Immobilize.

 

Currently I have Entangling Arrow in my build.  This is the case because it allows my character to be reliant on Range defence by keeping significant threats out of melee.  The added bonus of the -recharge makes their attacks slower and makes their ranged output even less of a threat.

 

Importantly Entangling Arrow is especially beneficial against Bosses, Elites Bosses and AV's because long durations of Immobilize and a quick recharge time allows the same TA character to stack the immobilize effect and bring them to a halt with quick re-applications.

 

My notes of caution are this: 

 

• please ensure that the "keep at range" effectiveness of the power is not lost against Bosses, Elite Bosses and AV's.
• The ease of application for stacking immobilize is not weakened.
• the intended change of -res becomes effective for subsequent shots but not Entangling itself.  Is this really the intended goal? (Weakening a power to strengthen the set?)

 

Personally speaking,  I would much rather see Entangling Arrow be a constricting net (ala Predator net from the movies).  Simply make it a modest damage over time attack whilst immobilized.

 

The defacto forum wisdom might be that the Ice Arrow (a Hold) is superior to Entangling Arrow.  I would counter that Entangling Arrow (and Immobilizes in general) have a purpose and changing them should not be automatic -- simply because they are low tier.  I like them!

 

 

 

  

Edited November 2, 2020 by Tath99

[KaizenSoze]

I will add my vote in for EMP Arrow Faraday Cage effect working on the caster.

 

It would allow me to avoid using Clarion or break frees solo.

 

When soloing, I fight in the middle of the group, so the stay close until I get all the powers deployed.

 

Then they run like chickens... slowly. 🙂

[ExeErdna]

My first thing I want is to be able to color the whole set now that EMP arrow is a pet it takes the color of your choice, unlike the rest of the set which is set a default.

I kinda Agree with Tath99 I kinda want the Tactical Arrow's net dot on Trick Arrow since currently I only throw a hami on it and it's good. There should be a bit more incentive for slotting since Ice Arrow is better. Then Like KaizenSoze said the EMP Arrow should affect the user since current change is kinda redundant if I can't get anything good from it because it lasts a long time. If it can prevent me from and the group from getting mezzed and or drained it would be nice.

What would be a dream yet not for this patch would be having in Targeted AOE Immo arrow yet that's more or less moving Trick Arrow into a controller primary set. Or it could be something a new Epic set could use.

As of now TA is really good it allows the set to shine if you want the arrows to just be a Targeted AOE I use these macros, they help me at lease.

 

/macroimage "TrickArrow_DebuffDamRes" "Disruption Arrow" "powexec_location target Disruption Arrow"

/macroimage "TrickArrow_Knockdown" "Oil Slick Arrow" "powexec_location target Oil Slick Arrow"

/macroimage "TrickArrow_Stun" "EMP Arrow" "powexec_location target EMP Arrow"

[Captain Powerhouse]

On 10/31/2020 at 8:30 PM, Luminara said:

 

It was like that in the I5 beta, it was changed because juggling between location- and critter-targeted was counter-productive and problematic.  Macros don't show recharge times, which will force players who use macros to set up two trays, one for macros and one for actual powers to display their recharge status.  Key binds, the other option, force players to change hand position away from standard positioning (WASD + number keys), which leads to errors in power usage or unintended movement when the wrong keys are pressed.  Neither of these are negligible concerns, and were the primary reasoning behind changing to mostly critter-targeted powers.  Moving back to a heavier mix of location- and critter-targeted powers reintroduces these unresolved issues in usability, something you should consider before finalizing this change.

 

I understand this, but due to some current engine limitations, the only way to make the pet not-stack is if it either targets location or caster. Foe-focused pseudopet summons cant delete the older pet before summoning the new one, and with the buffed numbers, this power would be too strong if allowed to stack.

 

If it is any help, bind commands are also useful. You can bind a key, like 1, to activate the power at the target location and then place the power on spot 1, it would be visually the same as just having it on spot 1 and targeting the enemy.

[WindDemon21]

32 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

I understand this, but due to some current engine limitations, the only way to make the pet not-stack is if it either targets location or caster. Foe-focused pseudopet summons cant delete the older pet before summoning the new one, and with the buffed numbers, this power would be too strong if allowed to stack.

 

If it is any help, bind commands are also useful. You can bind a key, like 1, to activate the power at the target location and then place the power on spot 1, it would be visually the same as just having it on spot 1 and targeting the enemy.

Plus the whole, location power = location targetting thing so you can actually properly use the location area like at corners and such before engaging the mob.

 

Lum has also expressed that they don't personally care if it is target or location based, and that they are already aware of the powexec binds.

 

I do share however share their issues on macros not showing cooldowns, and the  issue of location powers not always casting depending on terrain.

 

However MASSIVE applause for making it location based as it should be, and the rare chance of these issues nowhere near means it's it not worth it and shouldn't have the location targeted ability.

 

But, if it is at all possible looking into fixing the powexeclocation target issue where it won't cast, and finding a way to make macros show cooldowns would be fantastic for all location powers, not just glue arrow.

[WindDemon21]

My favorite part of this game is also the community and how helpful they can be, and part of Lum's concern is that newer players may not be aware of the target binds and such.

 

It would be helpful if perhaps somewhere in game (and referenced at new character login for new players) that there is a guide/tutorial option for binds and slash commands or at least a message with a link to where that is on the forums to look at.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

It would be helpful if perhaps somewhere in game (and referenced at new character login for new players) that there is a guide/tutorial option for binds and slash commands or at least a message with a link to where that is on the forums to look at.

 

As an "I just zoned into Atlas Park/Mercy Island" help pop-up window which can't be dismissed for 10s, like the current one, clearly explaining to players that the command exists, which modifiers can be used and examples provided (such as a default bind/macro the player can copy and use).  Or in the GMotD.  Somewhere right in the player's face, rather than buried in forum posts.  Bottom line, if people don't know a command exists, they can't look for information about it.  It needs to be up front and center, so players are aware of it.

 

Or, better, a right-click option on the power itself.  Right-click, select Bind or Macro, etc.  THAT would be ideal, because it would be easily discovered or explained.

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Personally speaking,  I would much rather see Entangling Arrow be a constricting net (ala Predator net from the movies).  Simply make it a modest damage over time attack whilst immobilized.

 

None of the other defender primary T1 powers deal damage.  Not one.  If that rule is changed for TA, it has to, in fairness, be changed for all defender primaries.

 

2 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

What would be a dream yet not for this patch would be having in Targeted AOE Immo arrow yet that's more or less moving Trick Arrow into a controller primary set.

 

As a controller primary, it would probably work, but I'd recommend a mutual exclusivity flag like the one in Shield Defense which prevents players from using two-handed weapons with SD.  TA/TA would, in all likelihood, be grossly over-powered in several ways, unless one or both were scaled downward (such as to current live TA levels).

2 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Or it could be something a new Epic set could use.

 

That would be delightful.  Not having a bow in a single *PP has always been a sticking point for me.

[WindDemon21]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Or, better, a right-click option on the power itself.  Right-click, select Bind or Macro, etc.  THAT would be ideal, because it would be easily discovered or explained.

That would be great too, then can even make it without worrying about syntaxes. I know people who know about them but still have issues with the exact wording etc.

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

That would be delightful.  Not having a bow in a single *PP has always been a sticking point for me.

This would be more difficult and require a lot more animations, but I've also always wanted an option for an energy bow/arrows kinda like kagome on inuyasha and quincy's on bleach kinda like "soul arrows".

[Wild Claw]

13 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

This would be more difficult and require a lot more animations, but I've also always wanted an option for an energy bow/arrows kinda like kagome on inuyasha and quincy's on bleach kinda like "soul arrows".

Or to go back even further, like Hank the Ranger on the old Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. 🙂

[Wavicle]

51 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

None of the other defender primary T1 powers deal damage.  Not one.  If that rule is changed for TA, it has to, in fairness, be changed for all defender primaries.

 

 

 

Gale says hello.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Gale says hello.

Point.

 

None of the other defender primaries deal significant damage, nor "modest damage over time", nor are categorized as attacks.  They're all buffs, debuffs, or controls (hard or soft), not attacks.

[Vanden]

Adding damage to a debuff power doesn't help it perform as a debuff power or improve the buff/debuff strength of the set it belongs to.

[ExeErdna]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

As a controller primary, it would probably work, but I'd recommend a mutual exclusivity flag like the one in Shield Defense which prevents players from using two-handed weapons with SD.  TA/TA would, in all likelihood, be grossly over-powered in several ways, unless one or both were scaled downward (such as to current live TA levels).

TA/Traps would be the meme and honest fix the issue people I included are having with EMP Arrow atm. Damn thinking about it. I want TA as a controller primary now.

[Captain Powerhouse]

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Plus the whole, location power = location targetting thing so you can actually properly use the location area like at corners and such before engaging the mob.

 

I understand some like the change for these reasons, but if I can figure a way to address pseudo-pet replacing without making it location based before i27 goes live, it would go back to target based.

[Tath99]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Point.

 

None of the other defender primaries deal significant damage, nor "modest damage over time", nor are categorized as attacks.  They're all buffs, debuffs, or controls (hard or soft), not attacks.

This is a fair point.  I rescind my suggestion regarding damage.  I had my Electricity Manipulation (Blaster) hat on.  😉 

 

However, the other cautionary notes I sounded regarding immobilization stacking and -recharge are still valid.  Entangling Arrow is "subtle" (tactical) rather than "direct" (numerical) in its benefits.  I would personally advise against making a change which is in danger of changing its identity too much.

 

P.S.  Though as food for thought -- would it be a bad thing if ALL immobilizes across ALL powersets and AT's were standardized to have damage on different AT damage scaling?  Perhaps a discussion for another day and thread.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Tath99

[Luminara]

21 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

I understand some like the change for these reasons, but if I can figure a way to address pseudo-pet replacing without making it location based before i27 goes live, it would go back to target based.

 

Part of the problem is that it's not properly canceling its own effects.  It's not simply a stacking issue, it's always been odd in a way which suggested that it might be buggy.  A critter can enter the pseudo-pet's PBAoE 29s after the pseudo-pet is spawned, and when the pet despawns at 30s, it doesn't remove the debuff from that critter.  In fact, the debuff lasts until 59s, which implies that each tick applies a 30s Slow.  If that is the case, changing the debuff duration to 0.25s (presuming a 0.2s tick rate) would resolve that issue, but would introduce the problem of the debuff no longer being present when critters exit the patch.

 

Having Glue persist after the pet despawned has long been a crutch TAs have had to lean on to get more out of the set.  Whether it's warranted with the set's improvements is another conversation entirely.  Might be worth testing it with and without the persistence to see how it impacts play.

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Part of the problem is that it's not properly canceling its own effects.  It's not simply a stacking issue, it's always been odd in a way which suggested that it might be buggy.  A critter can enter the pseudo-pet's PBAoE 29s after the pseudo-pet is spawned, and when the pet despawns at 30s, it doesn't remove the debuff from that critter.  In fact, the debuff lasts until 59s, which implies that each tick applies a 30s Slow.  If that is the case, changing the debuff duration to 0.25s (presuming a 0.2s tick rate) would resolve that issue, but would introduce the problem of the debuff no longer being present when critters exit the patch.

 

Having Glue persist after the pet despawned has long been a crutch TAs have had to lean on to get more out of the set.  Whether it's warranted with the set's improvements is another conversation entirely.  Might be worth testing it with and without the persistence to see how it impacts play.

I feel like I looked it up a day or two ago,, which means I probably forgot it all now.. However, if my short term memory is correct, the 30s duration is how the power works on Live. However the pseudopet that is currently on Beta is a 1.25s duration (same 1s tick interval on the pet). So you no longer have to worry about the silly 30s duration after being in the patch for only 1s situation any longer.

[arkieboy72472]

5 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

My favorite part of this game is also the community and how helpful they can be, and part of Lum's concern is that newer players may not be aware of the target binds and such.

 

It would be helpful if perhaps somewhere in game (and referenced at new character login for new players) that there is a guide/tutorial option for binds and slash commands or at least a message with a link to where that is on the forums to look at.

This 100%. Binds are not noob friendly

[Captain Powerhouse]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Part of the problem is that it's not properly canceling its own effects.  It's not simply a stacking issue, it's always been odd in a way which suggested that it might be buggy.  A critter can enter the pseudo-pet's PBAoE 29s after the pseudo-pet is spawned, and when the pet despawns at 30s, it doesn't remove the debuff from that critter.  In fact, the debuff lasts until 59s, which implies that each tick applies a 30s Slow.  If that is the case, changing the debuff duration to 0.25s (presuming a 0.2s tick rate) would resolve that issue, but would introduce the problem of the debuff no longer being present when critters exit the patch.

 

Having Glue persist after the pet despawned has long been a crutch TAs have had to lean on to get more out of the set.  Whether it's warranted with the set's improvements is another conversation entirely.  Might be worth testing it with and without the persistence to see how it impacts play.

 

 

As Booper noted, this is no longer the case, not in this build. Previous implementation was weaker and required the caster to do some play-around with that lingering effect as you noted.

 

Now, the buff is much stronger and the patch lasts a lot longer precisely aimed at the player not having to be spamming the power to get maximum potential out of the power.

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

 

As Booper noted, this is no longer the case, not in this build. Previous implementation was weaker and required the caster to do some play-around with that lingering effect as you noted.

 

Now, the buff is much stronger and the patch lasts a lot longer precisely aimed at the player not having to be spamming the power to get maximum potential out of the power.

I will be sad to see that lingering effect go away personally. It made the power much nicer, but lasting longer and being location based will more than make up for that.

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

I understand some like the change for these reasons, but if I can figure a way to address pseudo-pet replacing without making it location based before i27 goes live, it would go back to target based.

Note, having it go back to being target based, AND losing that lingering effect, would be a straight up nerf and make the power worse than it even was on live. The lingering effect was its only saving grace for it being target based (as opposed to just a debuff and no patch like lingering radiation with better rech/auto hit stats than current live).

 

If it was target based and ONLY did the ground patch, that would be the worst thing imaginable for the power.