Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[KaizenSoze]

First round of testing endurance drain -resists from Acid Arrow completed.

 

I think it's the same situation as the -toHit resists, If a mob has endurance drain resists, they are so high, it's going to negate Acid Arrow's effect.

 

This is somewhat guess work as the Power Analyzer does not show endurance drain resistance.

 

Note, I am not talking about recovery resistance. AAs effect on recovery resistance shows nicely in the Power Analyzer.

 

Testing attempted:

Someone on discord was nice enough to point that Malta sappers have end drain resistance.

 

I used AE 1945. Not the best for sappers, but there are always a few on the first map.

 

I was using my TA/Elec/Mu defender with fully end slotted Power Sink and Short Circuit, end drain is at max power.

Test subject, con sapper held with Ice Arrow, so no end usage from it attacking me.
Two rounds of power sink fully slotted for end drain. Endurance stayed at 100%, ie no effect.
Acid Arrow applied. Endurance stayed at 100% with AA applied and two rounds of power sink.
Also, I waited for any -recovery to wear off.

If I cannot overcome the end drain resistance of a even con minion, then the end drain -resist is going to work on any resistant mobs.

 

Unless there is something special about sappers. Any other mob suggestions to test on?

 

Of course, against non-resist mobs, the Power Sink and Short Circuit can drain a 54 boss in one round.

 

Maybe 2-3 players with TA could debuff end drain resistance to matter, but it's not happening with just one player.

 

The changes are still awesome, just wanted to see if AAs -resists would allow mobs known for particular resistance could be effected.

Edited October 29, 2020 by KaizenSoze

[Luminara]

40 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Did my description give you an idea of the difference the TA changes made?

 

It did.  As a matter of fact, I was going through @Redlynne's post history, looking for the content that I remembered being colorfully detailed explanations of how bad Necro/TA was.

 

Turns out, it was Ninja/TA.  Also noticed that she hasn't posted in months.  Hope she's okay.

 

Anyway, the two most difficult sets to play with TA have been tested and shown to be working pretty well.  It doesn't seem to be at the "I have to play at +0/x0 because TA is bad" place where it was.  It also doesn't seem to be abusive or exploitable when used by Defenders, so the high end isn't in the wrong place.  I think that's about where it should be.

[KaizenSoze]

13 minutes ago, Rejolt said:

I still don't know If I like  Poison Gas Arrow. It feels like that should have had the -heal. The pulsing sleep makes me want to try it with Static Field to see if they stack.

I haven't tried a controller TA yet. Only Defender and Master Mind. I was thinking about making a Elec/TA, Plant/TA, or Fire/TA.

 

PSA and SF should stack, but you won't be able to use Acid Arrow. AA inflicts a small dot.

 

IMO a Elec/TA should consider not taking AA if they want to use sleep a lot. But darn it's hurts to lose AAs -defense.

 

Also, see my post above. AA's -resist to endurance drain does not appear to help with mob that are resistant to said drains, like Malta sappers.

[Rejolt]

23 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I haven't tried a controller TA yet. Only Defender and Master Mind. I was thinking about making a Elec/TA, Plant/TA, or Fire/TA.

 

PSA and SF should stack, but you won't be able to use Acid Arrow. AA inflicts a small dot.

 

IMO a Elec/TA should consider not taking AA if they want to use sleep a lot. But darn it's hurts to lose AAs -defense.

 

Also, see my post above. AA's -resist to endurance drain does not appear to help with mob that are resistant to said drains, like Malta sappers.

High-stacking sleeps are for keeping groups of AVs at bay and picking on the ones you want to drop first.

 

[Trickshooter]

On 10/25/2020 at 1:56 PM, macskull said:

Benumb/Weaken vs Ice Arrow

Defender: 74.50%/86.50%

Corruptor: 55.87%/69.20%

Controller: 93.13%/69.20%

Mastermind: 74.50%/51.90%

 

I'd honestly argue that even Weaken's -special value is too high for its cooldown especially because it's an AoE.

I just happened to see this post (not sure why clicking on the thread brought me to it specifically lol).

 

+/- Special powers have always been weird because they used the Ranged_Stun (I think) modifiers, which always made them best for Controllers and worst for Corruptors. Looks like Ice Arrow uses the Ranged_Res_Boolean modifier, which frankly makes the values between the ATs make more sense (even if Ice Arrow looks to be a little too good). I wish they'd carry this change over to most of the Special powers.

[KaizenSoze]

A question, are there any particularly resistant mobs you would like me to test?

 

Endurance drain and ToHit have been covered.

 

How about Regen, Recharge Time, and Endurance discount? Though, I am not clear on what powers effect endurance discount.

 

And a suggestion, it is starting to look like Acid Arrow -resists are very situational or for PvP.

 

Now, TA has lots of useful powers, which will make builds tight. It's good problem to have, but it's still a problem.

 

Move the -defense from AA to Poison Gas Arrow or Disruption Arrow. This makes AA much more optional like Glue Arrow.

 

IMO, the only really skip-able power is Glue Arrow. Maybe EMP arrow is you solo a lot.

 

Proc heavily builds need to the -defense to compensate for low accuracy.

 

My defender proc builds have to take 8/9 powers, but at least heavily slotting is not required.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Also, see my post above. AA's -resist to endurance drain does not appear to help with mob that are resistant to said drains, like Malta sappers.

 

I don't have a problem with that.  The game having specific and limited critters with resistance to debuffs, that's okay from my perspective.  Outside of the AV class (has anyone tested anything on GMs?), I don't think there are many (not referring to specific enemies, like the EBs in the Rikti War Zone story arcs, but specific critters within enemy groups), they're not typically difficult to defeat, and there are enough tools in the kit now to deal with them even if they are harder.  I see these debuff resistance debuffs as being situational, or something we can potentially build around to leverage, not a critical tool to ensure our survival or make combat bearable.

 

I do think the problem with -ToHit resistance and ToHit floors and how these two interact make the debuff almost useless on anything but minions, and it being ultimately unnecessary on minions, needs to be addressed, but the rest of the debuffs to debuff resistance are okay where they are, even with the occasional enemy ignoring them.

[KaizenSoze]

I would love to see the effect of a whole team of TA-def/cont/cor/mm on a TF.

 

Eight Acid Arrows, Flash Arrows, EMP, etc... Might compete with those all fire/rad corrupter groups.

[Luminara]

15 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Move the -defense from AA to Poison Gas Arrow or Disruption Arrow. This makes AA much more optional like Glue Arrow.

 

Then Acid loses all of its function beyond that situational use, and we become reliant on PGA or Disruption being recharged, or enemies being in the PGA or Disruption field, to gain the benefit of the -Def.  What purpose does Acid have with that change, if it's only really useful or necessary at the very end of the game when you're debuffing AVs?  It's inappropriate as anything but a T9 without the -Def, and it's inappropriate as a T9 if all it does is debuff a few debuff resistances by 40%.

 

Also, in some of my post beta builds, Glue will be mandatory.  As I note in the previous paragraph, neither PGA nor Disruption is going to do anything unless enemies are inside the radius of their AoEs.  OSA's recharge time is too high to be an every spawn tool, even with perma-Hasten and maximally slotted +Recharge in OSA.  Glue's going to be one of the most vital tools in my arsenal, the one which allows all of my other tools to be used.  My TA/Dark can handle spawns without Glue because she has Tenebrous Tentacles.  My Grav/TA will be fine without it, too.  But my Fire/TA?  Oh, yeah, she's Gluing those mothertruckers to the floor so she can Rain and Breath them to hell and back.  And my Beasts/TA is absolutely going to want some Slowing going on.  I think Glue is going to be a key power for any build without an AoE Immob or another source of AoE Slow.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I would love to see the effect of a whole team of TA-def/cont/cor/mm on a TF.

 

Eight Acid Arrows, Flash Arrows, EMP, etc... Might compete with those all fire/rad corrupter groups.

 

The last time we did that, Castle nerfed TA.  😞

[Rejolt]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

The last time we did that, Castle nerfed TA.  😞

"Balance is as Balance is punk!"

 

And he's not here.... enjoy!

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Also, in some of my post beta builds, Glue will be mandatory.  As I note in the previous paragraph, neither PGA nor Disruption is going to do anything unless enemies are inside the radius of their AoEs.  OSA's recharge time is too high to be an every spawn tool, even with perma-Hasten and maximally slotted +Recharge in OSA.  Glue's going to be one of the most vital tools in my arsenal, the one which allows all of my other tools to be used.  My TA/Dark can handle spawns without Glue because she has Tenebrous Tentacles.  My Grav/TA will be fine without it, too.  But my Fire/TA?  Oh, yeah, she's Gluing those mothertruckers to the floor so she can Rain and Breath them to hell and back.  And my Beasts/TA is absolutely going to want some Slowing going on.  I think Glue is going to be a key power for any build without an AoE Immob or another source of AoE Slow.

Glue will be very necessary for some builds. Just it's not mandatory like EA, FA, IA, PGA, AA, DA, OIL, EMP for almost all builds. EMP being the other..kinda..maybe..optional power.

 

I have been fooling around in Mids with different AT builds. I am quickly getting tight on powers due to TA being so awesome now.

 

Trying to think of ways to reduce the build pressure.

[Luminara]

20 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Glue will be very necessary for some builds. Just it's not mandatory like EA, FA, IA, PGA, AA, DA, OIL, EMP for almost all builds. EMP being the other..kinda..maybe..optional power.

 

I have been fooling around in Mids with different AT builds. I am quickly getting tight on powers due to TA being so awesome now.

 

Trying to think of ways to reduce the build pressure.

 

All of my TA builds have at least 7 TA powers, some 8 or 9.  I still need to rejigger them for the changes, but I'm waiting for an update to Mids' because I'm too lazy to hunt down and change or add everything myself.  I've only experimented a little with dual builds, but enough for me to be comfortable relegating both Ice and EMP to the secondary builds on all of my characters (soloing AVs or punching pylons isn't the kind of challenge i look for), for end game/TF team-only usage.  I could probably justify putting Acid into the secondary builds as well, since I rarely need a Defense debuff, much less two of them.  So this will actually free up 1-3 selections for me...

 

Room for Combat Teleport!  Woo!

[oedipus_tex]

RE: Glue Arrow.

I like where this is. It's a good power that can be skipped or not without breaking the build. 

 

 

RE: Acid Arrow

I love the concept, but I'm still wavering on its actual performance. I've been testing it and the return on investment isn't super high when running a solo Defender. On the other hand, it buffs all your pets and teammates debuffs too, which is something.

 

I noticed Acid Arrow doesn't debuff RunSpeed or FlySpeed Resistance. Not sure if these were left out for a specific reason. Adding those in there would modestly improve this power because most players don't bother slotting for slow Run Speed.

 

Right now I'm leaning toward skipping this power on most builds. It's competing with other powers for its cast time. I'd reconsider if this power wasn't an actual "power" but a toggle that caused another arrow (e.g. Disruption Arrow or PG Arrow) to do the Acid Arrow effect, saving cast time. But that's a lot to ask this late in development, so I'm just throwing it out there without any commitment to it.

 

 

RE: Combining TA with Power Boost

I tried mixing various combos of Power Boost with TA and got the results expected.

 

Acid Arrow doesn't directly benefit from Power Boost, which is expected.

 

Side note, PB + Flash Arrow is really really good on a Defender. 4 slotted with Dark Watcher's Despair, PB + Flash Arrow put same level enemies at the soft cap. The power has a good debuff duration, fast animation, good AoE seize, and since you can cast it before the fight starts there's never a reason not to barring ambushes. The only kind of surprise (but not really)is that if you use a Power Boosted Flash Arrow and then a non-PBed one, the non-PBed one replaces the debuff in the PBed one. This is the expected behavior since the power does not stack, but any TA players should be aware ofit.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Glue will be very necessary for some builds. Just it's not mandatory like EA, FA, IA, PGA, AA, DA, OIL, EMP for almost all builds. EMP being the other..kinda..maybe..optional power.

 

I have been fooling around in Mids with different AT builds. I am quickly getting tight on powers due to TA being so awesome now.

 

Trying to think of ways to reduce the build pressure.

You’re not supposed to reduce build pressure. You’re supposed to raise it. Every power in the set should be desirable. You’re literally arguing to make a power worse so you can freely skip it. No thank you.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'm sorry, I haven't read this entire thread, nor have I gone on Test to try it out.  

 

I just had a question about Acid Arrow, which seems to be getting a lot of hate. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but isn't it still a complete monster as a proc vehicle?

[4th.survivor]

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Nature and Sonic T1.  Dark and Poison T2, AoE.  Four other sets with access to -Res by level 2 at the very latest (corruptors, controllers and masterminds), two of which are AoE, and all of which not only have stronger -Res than this version of Entangling, but also have other effects which are both more powerful and more desirable than a single-target Immob.

 

I realize that, this feels like you've arrived backwards to my rationale of the sonic arrow.  I don't want a sonic arrow, or any power which mimics the effects of another one because it is currently performing poorly and needs a buff that stretches the bounds of what similar powers do.  Previously you've extended my logic well past the bounds of my intentions by suggesting my proposals in matching Trick Arrow/Entangling to Traps/Web Grenade would produce WoW-clone like effects where each powerset across the AT is functionally identical, despite Traps and TA having great thematic distinction even with their common elements.  That's not what I'm proposing, but this change does bring us closer to that outcome with regards to this power specifically, and you are citing the reasons why right here, as I did earlier... Entangling is now like a 66% effective Sonic Siphon coupled with an immob.

 

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

The problem here is that you're conflating similarities between different sets with intentional common ground, while also ignoring differentiation between sets where it doesn't fit the concept of thematic identity.  If you were correct, every tier would have identical effects across all of the thematically similar sets.  They don't.

 

It's not a problem, but you do have a problem with it... I think?  I see no contradiction in my desire that Trick Arrow should retain its mechanical kinship with other device powersets, either with respect to Entangling arrow or Acid arrow...any more than someone arguing that Fire powersets should retain DoTs across AT's or sets, or that Ice powersets should retain slow or -rech effects, or any other number of mechanical similarities which introduce interesting gameplay effects while reinforcing their thematic elements.  I did not imagine those similarities or conflate them with each other - they are literally in the descriptions of powers and sets unified under a common theme.  Fire.  Ice.  Psychic/Mental sets.  Entangling arrows and web nades which hold people in place or acid arrows/mortars which sizzle through armor, Etc. The presence of those mechanics present in lesser or greater degrees is self evident. We also don't need to extend the logic I'm applying here to the point of absurdity, I'm not for homogenizing sets, and that if anything adding a nice chonky -res debuff into entangling is a move towards making it more like 'other' support sets.  As you point out in your very next point, Trick Arrow and Traps are plenty distinct even with their commonalities...

 

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

TA and Traps both have a T1 Immob, but after that, they go off in separate directions, each having a distinct identity resulting from different powers, or different tiers of availability in superficially similar powers.

 

Six of the available 13 sets have an AoE heal in the T1.  Are they all "healer" sets?  Is Kinetics a healing set?  Is Radiation Emission?  Absolutely not, they diversify in a variety of ways, even within those T1s.  In fact, only one of those six has a focus on healing, because, despite being superficially similar to other sets, they're all distinct from one another.

Correct, I don't want to go down this road and I agree with you that this is a desirable goal.  This is not the position I'm taking.  I just want off the ride.

 

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

If bullets can reduce resistance, thematically, according to you, why doesn't Assault Rifle have -Res?  I have a blade on my Staff/WP brute's staff, and blades thematically cause Lethal damage, but all of my attacks deal Smashing damage.  If guns, grenades and arrows are an acceptable method of applying -Res, why don't all guns, grenades and arrows apply -Res?  Where's the -Res in Archery, if this is the case?  If some grenades cause knockback, be they fired from an over-under launcher on a rifle or from a bow, why don't all grenades cause knockback, if they're intended to share a common theme?

Bullets evidently can -resistance... but seems that effect only applies when your character does some cool twirl and then uh... forces the bullets out of the gun faster by punching forward 😛 Look, I take your points on theme being flexible, Nemesis Plots, etc and I don't think I'm as dogmatic about this as you charge me with, and I take your point that -res is more common than my initial assessment, given that I tend to play mostly device-based characters (where it is present more rarely).  But within that framework, -res still is rather valuable, since as an example only one power in the pistols powerset produces it.  In many of the examples you've previously cited of the presence of -res, it tends to be present within perhaps one power of the set which specifically emphasizes it (eg. Rib Cracker.  eg, Piercing Bullets, eg. Rend Armor) as some kind of heavy or armor piercing attack, or else it presents more generally, as a global rider with sets that have this (sonic). Hence my opinion that it is considered to be a 'valuable' secondary effect, which I think people would agree with given its direct outcome on damage output.  If Assault Rifle were to be considered for a buff, putting a comparable amount of -res into sniper rifle probably makes sense, thematically.  Why this effect isn't in place already you allude to - the game has been shipped, sold, cancelled, and frankensteined back to life by hard working volunteers.

To break this kick circle, and since you opened the can...is there an example of a frag grenade which doesn't cause knockback?

 

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

You've created your own verisimilitude with this.  That's awesome.  I mean that, it's absolutely fantastic.  That's exactly what we're supposed to be doing in Co*, it's exactly how the game was designed.  But it's your verisimilitude.  Yours.  Not mine.  Not @Wavicle's.  Not @Trickshooter's.  Not @Tater Todd's.  Not anyone else's.  It belongs to you, exclusively.  No-one's verisimilitude is the same, we each have our own.  We all use our imagination to tell our own stories and make everything fit.  There is no picture on the top of the jigsaw puzzle box, there's just the puzzle pieces, and no right or wrong way to put them together.  That's what makes our characters, our stories, so precious to us.  That's what made the game so memorable, so deeply loved, that we're here again, eight years after shutdown, playing on servers operated and maintained by other people who loved it in the same way and for the same reasons, and love it so much that they give up their free time, time they could spend with their families and friends, time they could spend pursuing other hobbies, time they could spend unwinding from their real jobs, to keep working on it, fixing bugs, adding features, making new things for us to add to our stories and fit into our wildly varying verisimilitudes.

 

It's up to you to make sense of what's in the game as it fits into your story, because it's your story.  Your imagination is limitless, and this game gives you the freedom to roam as far and wide as you care to, to discover just how vast and complex that limitlessness really is.  Run with it, and if you can't come up with a better explanation for the changes that don't fit within the verisimilitude you've created for yourself... go find Nemesis and beat the answers out of him.  😉

 

Legionette's staff doesn't cause Lethal damage, by the way, because she blunts the edge and point.  She's just trying to prove that she's not weak or tremulous, not murder everyone she runs into.  Verisimilitude, mine.

I appreciate this offering, as someone I play with frequently has a psychic/telekinetic character that emphasizes telekinesis moreso than mental telepathy, so they play a Grav/Psionic dominator with the gravity powers flavored as manifestations of telekinetic force and recolour the effects to more closely match the general oscillating pink waves of the psi powers.  But I am not quite talking about that, I think.  I've attempted to demonstrate a pretty simple objection on the basis of internal consistency within the framework of similar powers, and in the process you have illustrated how power effects differ widely across sets and ATs when that's not exactly what I meant.  I think that I have suggested there is room for improvement on this page 1 offering, nothing more.  I certainly don't want to have my position twisted to the point that my understanding of the powers is imperfect beyond grasping, or that I've imagined the frameworks which these powers are clearly situated in, or that failing to use what's being offered is somehow a failing of my imagination.  We can sidestep all that and I appreciate that you've tried to be fair along the way even as we veer into these territories.  To be honest, I suspect that this entire exchange (while enlightening) has been something of a distraction for this thread and the work being done here.

Moving a -res effect away from acid arrow and creating a new one in entangling is (imo) the wrong choice if consolidating powers is one of the principal goals.  It's not the wrong choice if improving performance is the sole goal.  There's a tension there.  That the change produces an idiosyncratic effect with respect to other device-themed immobilizes can be overlooked as many have suggested, but like removing a nonfunctional -end effect in disrupting, would be pretty cool if it could be corrected (ie, that if the two net powers we have in the game end up resembling each other mechanically in some form at least, even as pale shadows beyond the AT divide).  Personally, I would sincerely miss sizzling dudes with my armor-eating acid arrow (as I have already created the sort of 'personal storytelling' that this effect fits into, as you suggest), but I'll learn to live with it if that's the way the wheel is pulled, even as people tell me how much I'll love the new one.  Probably they're right.

❤️

[KaizenSoze]

9 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm sorry, I haven't read this entire thread, nor have I gone on Test to try it out.  

 

I just had a question about Acid Arrow, which seems to be getting a lot of hate. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but isn't it still a complete monster as a proc vehicle?

No hate for Acid Arrow, but -resists are not turning out as useful as designed if only one teammate is TA.

 

Now, 2-3 TA players stacking this is another story!

 

It is still a proc monster, I have 5 procs in my builds on beta.

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm sorry, I haven't read this entire thread, nor have I gone on Test to try it out.  

 

I just had a question about Acid Arrow, which seems to be getting a lot of hate. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but isn't it still a complete monster as a proc vehicle?

 

16 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

No hate for Acid Arrow, but -resists are not turning out as useful as designed if only one teammate is TA.

 

Now, 2-3 TA players stacking this is another story!

 

It is still a proc monster, I have 5 procs in my builds on beta.

 

I'd like to clarify this just a little bit. Acid Arrow is unique and potentially awesome. We already know a -defense debuff will be useful for using two damage procs and a resistance debuff proc, so I won't get into that. Let's talker about the resistance(special).

 

As you are probably familiar, whenever someone talks about damage resistance debuffs, they translate it to, a resistance debuff of X% will make you and your teammates to X% more damage. The math just works out that way, I won't bore you with a proof. What we can take from this, it is the same for "special" resistance debuffs. What does that mean? It means when you apply a resistance debuff of X% to a special attribute (such as defense, regeneration, recovery, etc), your debuffs of that special attribute will become X% more debuff.

 

For example: Let's say you do 100% regeneration debuff on a target, but that target has 50% regeneration debuff resistance. When you use your debuff, only half of it gets through, so the target would be debuffed by 50%. Now, if you use Acid Arrow, it will apply a 40% regeneration resistance debuff on your target. And much like how resistance resists resistible debuffs, the same concept applies. The target will resist half of that debuff, so it only gets hit with 20%. The 50% - 20% = a new 30% resistance to regeneration debuffs. Your 100% regeneration debuff will now do 70% regeneration debuff, which is 40% stronger than the original 50% debuff.

 

So, let's look at what Acid Arrow does:

Defender Values, it applies a 40% resistance to ToHit, Regeneration, RechargeTime, Recovery, Endurance, and Endurance Discount.

 

That means, if you apply Acid Arrow on a target, your debuffs of ToHit, Regeneration, RechargeTime, Recovery, Endurance, and Endurance Discount will be 40% stronger against that target. HOWEVER, there are some limitation to what this does in game.

 

First, we found out some ranks of targets have a minimum resistance to ToHit debuffs. Minions is -300% (which is what we'd expect), but Lieutenants have a minimum of 10%, Bosses have 20%, and AVs have a minimum of 30%. So basically, LTs and Bosses will not be impacted by Acid Arrow because they are usually starting at the minimum resistance before the fight begins. So debuffing those ranks will only happen if they buffed there ToHit resistance somehow (which I don't think is common). So effectively, AA will serve to neuter Minions (which we're not scared of, normally) and ArchVillains (which at level 50 start with 85% ToHit debuff resistance, so AA will be very useful for those fights).

 

Endurance Discount isn't really in the game...yet. So there's not much this effect will serve for the time being. I would be curious to get a list of all the Endurance Discount powers in the game (both player and NPC) to see how many ignore resistance and which ones do not. Those that do not would be impacted by Acid Arrow.

 

Recovery and Endurance debuffs are already somewhat not popular due to how the game uses these mechanics for various ranks of enemies. But...for those that do use Recovery and Endurance drain, Acid Arrow will make those effects stronger.

 

That mostly leaves us with Recharge Time and Regeneration. Recharge Time is not too difficult to reach the debuff floor on a target, but... if the target happened to have resistance to slows, then AA will help greatly. So truly, Regeneration is the big winner here. You can single handedly buff your entire team's Regeneration debuff output by 40%. That plays. That plays nicely.

 

Also, it's a 20s recharge for a 45s duration that can hit up to 16 targets. So...it's pretty nice. Even if you find the -Res(Special) situational, that is a lot of opportunities to hit enemies with damage procs and resistance debuffs.

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Honestly, I don't care if the only thing it does is summon a fart monkey.  I six-slot it with Achilles proc, Annihilation proc, Touch of Lady Grey proc, Bombardment proc, Positrons blast proc and an A/D.  That's a great attack in and of itself.  Anything else is gravy as far as I'm concerned.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

I just happened to see this post (not sure why clicking on the thread brought me to it specifically lol).

 

+/- Special powers have always been weird because they used the Ranged_Stun (I think) modifiers, which always made them best for Controllers and worst for Corruptors. Looks like Ice Arrow uses the Ranged_Res_Boolean modifier, which frankly makes the values between the ATs make more sense (even if Ice Arrow looks to be a little too good). I wish they'd carry this change over to most of the Special powers.

Apparently this may be the plan for +/-special powers going forward but I don't mind the current scales (minus Corruptors getting hosed). At least with Controllers having a higher modifier than Defenders it results in cases where a Controller can situationally make their buffs/debuffs almost as strong as a Defender's for a short period of time every so often.

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

I realize that, this feels like you've arrived backwards to my rationale of the sonic arrow.  I don't want a sonic arrow, or any power which mimics the effects of another one because it is currently performing poorly and needs a buff that stretches the bounds of what similar powers do.  Previously you've extended my logic well past the bounds of my intentions by suggesting my proposals in matching Trick Arrow/Entangling to Traps/Web Grenade would produce WoW-clone like effects where each powerset across the AT is functionally identical, despite Traps and TA having great thematic distinction even with their common elements.  That's not what I'm proposing, but this change does bring us closer to that outcome with regards to this power specifically, and you are citing the reasons why right here, as I did earlier... Entangling is now like a 66% effective Sonic Siphon coupled with an immob.

 

Or, it's an Immob with a 66% effective Siphon.  It's Entangling Arrow.  It entangles.  Entanglement does something to hinder movement (unless we're discussing quantum mechanics, of course).  That it also reduces Resistance, in addition to it's primary effect and purpose, is not something that makes one wonder why they didn't just call it Siphon Arrow, because it serves its primary function accurately and well.  I do understand what you're saying about why it would be more fitting to just replace the power with a Sonic Arrow, you're saying that thematically, it's the same thing, so why not skip the middleman and do away with the Immob if we're going to go down the crazy road.  To you, it's just as appropriate because the nature of the power has completely changed.  I just don't agree with that assessment.  It hasn't become a -Res power that just happens to also immobilize a target, it's become an Immob that just happens to also reduce a target's Resistance.

 

Howling Twilight.  Take a look at the power description.  What's the first thing it says, and that comes to mind when you read it?  Rez.  When you reach the end of the description, it says, "Oh, yeah, it also reduces Regen by 500%".  Would you like to take a guess which function some players use it for?  You got it, the -Regen.  But it's still a rez, it's still used by a lot of players to bring teammates back into the action after they've been downed.  And players use it as a rez, because that's what it was designed to do.  The utility of the -Regen on AVs is a bonus.

 

That's where Entangling is with this change.  It doesn't stop being useful, or used, as an Immob, but it has an additional utility, a bonus.

 

This isn't homogenization, it's addressing the needs of the set as a whole, while accepting that there are limitations in how to make it unique, and simultaneously handing TA players something they previously had to work harder to achieve, in a slightly more limited form.

 

Adding -Res to Entangling isn't turning it into a poor copy of Sonic Siphon, it's distinguishing it from both Web Grenade and Sonic Siphon.  Sonic Siphon is better for reducing resistance, which is appropriate because it's in the Sonic primary.  Entangling Arrow has an additional debuff now, which is appropriate because TA is a debuffing set and Traps is more spread out, with +Regen, +Status Protection, and two very high damage powers.  Furthermore, Traps actually fits your definition of a device-themed set, whereas TA is, in reality, a debuff set which happens to use a bow and arrows.  Traps has a variety of devices, distinct graphically and mechanically, whereas TA has one bow and 9 graphically nearly identical arrows.  Traps was also specifically created in response to player requests for a /Devices option for defenders.  TA wasn't.  TA wasn't designed as a /Devices set for defenders, it was designed using /Devices powers, among other things, and presented as a debuff/control hybrid set.

 

Addressing the needs of the set as a whole meant improving some debuffs, de-emphasizing the control aspects (because they really weren't helping much) and shaving valuable seconds off of a TA player's work load.  Many defender primaries have toggles which serve the same basic purpose or provide the same basic functionality as TA's powers.  Those using toggles don't have to repeat the same animations every 10-20 seconds to "do their job", they toggle up and go about the business of kicking butt.  This is one of the things that's kept TA down, the constant re-application of debuffs.  So addressing the set's needs had to include cutting back on the re-application of debuffs, and that could only be accomplished by consolidating some of the effects.

 

There are limitations on how any power can be made unique.  We could not, for example, add a 36 damage component to Entangling Arrow.  Defender primary T1s don't deal damage.  That's a rule, because defenders are support first, damage second.  The effect had to be a buff or debuff, and obviously an Immob which buffs isn't going to fly with anyone.  That left debuffs.  Yes, it's true that another debuff could've been allocated in place of the -Res, but -Dam is already somewhat common in defender primary T1 debuffs, and since Entangling Arrow's primary purpose is to Immobilize an enemy, thereby preventing that enemy from moving into melee range or out of attack range, -Dam would also be less relevant and worthwhile in the power because ranged attacks were designed to deal less damage than melee attacks (Cryptic's risk versus reward concept for CoH).  -Recharge was already in the power, but it was small and making absolutely no difference, so that was removed (and Glue's -Recharge doubled, which increased TA's -Recharge to more than it was before, when Entangling still had -Recharge).  We've got enough -ToHit in Flash Arrow with the changes, we can't use -Regen because the value, when added to a defender primary T1, would be too low to be noteworthy unless we went right back to spamming arrows (counter to everything we've done so far), -End and -Recovery aren't really a good fit for being tied up... there really was only one viable option, -Res.

 

Now, it can be argued that swapping the -Dam from Ice would be fine.  And yes, in theory, it would.  However, we also have to remember that our defender primary T1 is optional for defenders, but mandatory for all of the other three archetypes.  This would have left those three archetypes with a -Dam power which did little to aid their survivability, did nothing to improve their combat viability and forced them to wait even longer before they received their bonus 20% -Res.  The fairest approach, then, is to put the -Res in Entangling, the -Dam in Ice.  Additionally, by placing the -Dam in Ice, which comes before PGA (six levels sooner, in the case of masterminds, controllers and corruptors), Ice becomes a better tool for both solo and team play by allowing players to directly reduce boss damage output even when Ice wasn't Holding them.  The -Dam in Ice is a critical addition, it's one of the things which will permit TA players to increase the difficulty, if they wish to, much sooner than they otherwise could.  Rather than waiting until level 50, purple sets, ATOs and Incarnate powers, and only then cranking it up, we're being given the option to start pushing the envelope before we're in the teens.  That's something nearly every other defender primary could do, and can do.  Placing the extra -Dam in Ice is one of the things which brings TA closer to parity in terms of leveling speed and capability.

 

Finally, that -Res isn't there simply because Entangling needed something.  It did, but what was also needed was compensation for the TA players who worked their builds to the point of double-stacking Disruption, the only way a TA could achieve 60% -Res short of lucky proc rolls.  That compensation had to go somewhere.  It could have gone back to Acid as a single-target effect, with sufficient extra work, but that would've negated the work done to reduce spamming and give TA players more free time.  Remember, Acid has the longest animation time in TA (shared with EMP).  It would put us right back to where we started, TA players having too much of their time eaten by debuffing.

 

That leaves us with only the option of placing it in Entangling.  It's fair to all four archetypes to have it there, it's useful throughout the entire level range of the game, it provides some compensation for losing the ability to stack our -Res up to 60% as an AoE, it's a faster animation than Acid so it won't cut into players' attack time as much if they choose to use it, it doesn't added an unnecessary or wasteful debuff that would've been ignored (like more -Def, or -Recovery), and it brings the necessary added utility to the power to make it worthwhile for all of the archetypes.

 

Once you really look at it, you can see that there wasn't any other viable decision that could've been made.  It may not be the most palatable choice for you, but from a design perspective, it was this or nothing.  I'll take this and send a thank you note to Nemesis.

 

1 hour ago, 4th.survivor said:

It's not a problem, but you do have a problem with it... I think?  I see no contradiction in my desire that Trick Arrow should retain its mechanical kinship with other device powersets, either with respect to Entangling arrow or Acid arrow...any more than someone arguing that Fire powersets should retain DoTs across AT's or sets, or that Ice powersets should retain slow or -rech effects, or any other number of mechanical similarities which introduce interesting gameplay effects while reinforcing their thematic elements.  I did not imagine those similarities or conflate them with each other - they are literally in the descriptions of powers and sets unified under a common theme.  Fire.  Ice.  Psychic/Mental sets.

 

Yes, within sets.  Within damage types.  Themes do exist in those ways.  Defender primaries each have their own themes as well.  Dark is -ToHit, Rad is -Def, even Traps has a theme, that being the theme you've been using as justification for your verisimilitude, being based on mechanical devices.  TA's theme is just "bow and arrows".  And while a bow and arrows are "devices", in that they're creations of humans used to accomplish work, so is a staff, or a sword, or an axe, and we're not referring to those as device-based sets.  Nor are TA's arrows specifically labeled as devices.  Every TA power can be explained as magical just as easily as it can be explained as technological.  Your "sonic resonator" in Disruption Arrow might be an iPod, but mine could be a rift to an alternate reality releasing the sound of mutant frogs chirping at a specific frequency, or a magical spell, or the mixing of two rare compounds releasing sonic pulses, or maybe my arrows are from a place where they natively emit a hum.

 

What I meant was that you've looked at things which you've labeled as "devices" and created a theme for them, across sets, across archetypes, and disregarded that they aren't actually related in very many ways.  You've created that wonderful verisimilitude for your characters, but it's not applicable outside of your characters.  Assault Rifle, Beam Rifle, /Devices, Traps and other similar sets, yes, thematically similar in that they are device-based sets, but within that thematic similarity, there are more differences than there are commonalities.  You've lumped them all together in one heap, but they don't actually fit in the heap for anyone but you.  You've conflated the idea of device-based with out of set thematic commonality and ignored things like origins, differences from one set to the next, discrepancies between the sets you view as sharing a theme (again, why doesn't anything in AR reduce Resistance?), and even the very nature of what a device is by not including every weapon-based set in the game.  You're not even accounting for inconsistencies between nearly identical powers, like Poison Trap in Poison and Poison Trap in Traps (the exact same power, modified so one imposes -Regen, the other imposes -Recovery).  Within your thematic definition, one of those powers is "wrong", but in fact, neither is because they weren't designed to be thematic between themselves, they were designed to be thematic in-set and differentiated from one another.

 

What you've done is created a set of rules for yourself to abide by when considering various aspects of the game, and are imposing that verisimilitude on everyone by insisting that Entangling and Acid aren't obeying the rules.  That's the problem I have with this.  The rules you use to define things don't actually exist for anyone but you.  Bile Spray has "acid" in its description, but it doesn't reduce Resistance, for instance.  It should, by your rules.  AR should have at least one attack which reduces Resistance, but it doesn't.

 

My Grav/TA, Na'siehel, is magic origin.  She turned her back on the Old Gods and was cursed with immortality, and left with the abilities they imbued her with because they expect her to finish the task they set forth for her.  Her arrows are spells.  Not devices.  Does your verisimilitude override or pre-empt mine?  Or does my verisimilitude take precedence, since she's my character?

 

I'm not accusing you of anything, nor am I telling you, "You're wrong!", I'm just pointing out that what you see isn't reflected in the game, and it's not what everyone sees either.

 

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Entangling arrows and web nades which hold people in place or acid arrows/mortars which sizzle through armor, Etc. The presence of those mechanics present in lesser or greater degrees is self evident.

 

Self-evident to a point, but not set in stone.  Things change.  Many of the sets which were in the original game when it was released have changed in ways over the years, even before the shutdown.  What the HC team is doing isn't unique, it's happened many times before.  Tanker toggles used to be mutually exclusive.  Players had to know what damage type an enemy would deal, whether or not to expect mez, etc.  Regeneration, the scrapper secondary, has gone through so many changes that's it's become a running joke.  Controllers used to be able to summon multiple pets.  Buffs, nerfs, altered mechanics, powers changed granularly so they'd be less similar, it went on for 12 years, from the first update to the last.  They even broke the cottage rule a few times, when they felt it was necessary.

 

Nothing says an effect caused by acid has to reduce Resistance, or that Resistance can only be reduced according to a specific set of guidelines of which power types or tiers or whatever can apply them.  Nothing says an Immob can't reduce Resistance, or that Immobs can only have specific effects (beyond, of course, immobilization).

 

2 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

I tend to play mostly device-based characters (where it is present more rarely).  But within that framework, -res still is rather valuable, since as an example only one power in the pistols powerset produces it.  In many of the examples you've previously cited of the presence of -res, it tends to be present within perhaps one power of the set which specifically emphasizes it (eg. Rib Cracker.  eg, Piercing Bullets, eg. Rend Armor) as some kind of heavy or armor piercing attack, or else it presents more generally, as a global rider with sets that have this (sonic). Hence my opinion that it is considered to be a 'valuable' secondary effect, which I think people would agree with given its direct outcome on damage output.

 

It is valuable, and that's why the decision was made to use it as an added effect.  It's valuable enough that TA players double-stacked Disruption on top of Acid Arrow for 60%, and the HC team knew that.  They knew they'd have to do something to fix the loss of that 20%, and decided to return it in a limited form, as a partial compensation, but also as a way to enhance the value of a commonly disliked power.

 

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

To break this kick circle, and since you opened the can...is there an example of a frag grenade which doesn't cause knockback?

Off the top of my head, not a fragmentation grenade, but there are numerous types of grenades in the game.  Smoke Grenade, Sleep Grenade, a temp power grenade which blinds/reduces ToHit, etc. The point being, grenades don't always cause KB, despite the most common grenades doing so.  They have a variety of effects.

 

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

I've attempted to demonstrate a pretty simple objection on the basis of internal consistency within the framework of similar powers, and in the process you have illustrated how power effects differ widely across sets and ATs when that's not exactly what I meant.

 

I'm trying to show you that there is no framework of the type you've described.  Completely identical powers can have completely different effects, which makes them completely different powers.  Acid not specifically debuffing Resistance is not new, neither is an Immobilization doing something other than -Speed and -Recharge.

 

I'm long-winded.  I love to write.  I like to talk, because I can't talk to people very often in reality (social anxiety disorder).  And I tend to take an example and push it to the extreme when I'm attempting to make a point.  Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's intentional and sometimes it's just me rambling on because I haven't found the right sentence to say what I'm trying to say.  But at no point am I trying to twist your words around, I'm just trying to show you what I think you're missing and give you a wider perspective of the game which will explain why these changes aren't necessarily anti-thematic.  We've been given origins, and carefully worded descriptions which leave room for us to interpret things in our own ways, and power color customization, and animation customization, and costume customization, and all of it opens up the doors to our imaginations, rather than confining us to specific definitions and descriptions and thematic consistencies.

 

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

To be honest, I suspect that this entire exchange (while enlightening) has been something of a distraction for this thread and the work being done here.

 

Maybe.  Or maybe it's giving them something to think about.

 

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Moving a -res effect away from acid arrow and creating a new one in entangling is (imo) the wrong choice if consolidating powers is one of the principal goals.  It's not the wrong choice if improving performance is the sole goal.  There's a tension there.

 

Yes and no.  Improved performance was one of the goals, but so was reducing spam.  Having two 20% -Res AoEs was one of those sources of spam, and it had to be addressed.  Disruption Arrow has one purpose, only one.  Reduce Resistance.  So taking it out of that power isn't possible.  The cottage rule is still in effect.  That means the only solution was to put Acid's -Res into Disruption.  That was the only way to reduce spam when using -Res in TA.  And the only logical solution for adding the 20% that players would've wanted to stack with 2x Disruption was to put it into another power.  Not an AoE, not Glue or PGA, because unrestricted AoE is bad AoE, so it had to be a single-target power, or a single-target effect.  There are only three potential solutions there - Entangling, Ice, or reworking Acid to produce a single-target -Res in addition to the AoE effects.  I've covered the reasons Entangling was the only real choice of those three, much farther above.

 

It was, and as I see it from a mechanics perspective, still is the only viable solution to all of the problems created by consolidating the -Res into Disruption.  It really can't work any other way.  Tension was unavoidable, unless we all agree to sacrifice the 20% -Res entirely and leave Entangling as the useless waste of a selection that it is.  The time lost reapplying Acid Arrow every 20s, the time lost trying to double-stack Disruption, the time lost trying to just come in dead last in the defender races was killing TA.  Yes, it means we're faced with the choice of possibly spamming Entangling instead of Acid now, but Entangling is, at the very least, faster to animate, and the duration of the -Res was increased by 50%, making it less spammy.

 

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

That the change produces an idiosyncratic effect with respect to other device-themed immobilizes can be overlooked as many have suggested, but like removing a nonfunctional -end effect in disrupting, would be pretty cool if it could be corrected (ie, that if the two net powers we have in the game end up resembling each other mechanically in some form at least, even as pale shadows beyond the AT divide).

 

I'm on the other side of the fence.  I want more differentiation.  I don't want Traps-on-sticks.  I don't want /Devices minus buffs and Trip Mine.  I want TA to be its own set.  I've loved TA and Archery since the moment I saw them in the Issue 5 beta, and I want TA to be its own entity, not a bunch of copies of blaster secondaries and defender primaries.  I've always wanted that.  The more it diverges from the roots, from the copies of powers, the better.

 

3 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Personally, I would sincerely miss sizzling dudes with my armor-eating acid arrow (as I have already created the sort of 'personal storytelling' that this effect fits into, as you suggest), but I'll learn to live with it if that's the way the wheel is pulled, even as people tell me how much I'll love the new one.  Probably they're right.

 

I expressed that sentiment many times in the past.  I remember wanting to punch Castle and BAB when they announced animation time changes for Archery and TA.  I may have even lost my temper and shouted at them on the forums.  The problem was, specifically on my Archery characters, I had a perfect attack chain set up, so every power in the sequence was recharged exactly when it needed to be.  It was effective and enjoyable, and these nitwits are suddenly talking about screwing that up?

Yeah, I wasn't taking it well.

 

And, as I'd determined from the numbers, my attack chain was hosed.  I had to start all over, redesign all of my Archery characters and find a new viable attack chain.  I did.  Turned out to be a better chain.  And I loved Archery even more for it, because it was a little fresher, a little newer, a little faster.  I apologized to Castle.  He laughed.

 

You still might hate the changes.  You might decide that you're just going to have to give up on TA.  Or you might grow comfortable with your new debuff rotation and find it more enjoyable.  That does happen.

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Honestly, I don't care if the only thing it does is summon a fart monkey.  I six-slot it with Achilles proc, Annihilation proc, Touch of Lady Grey proc, Bombardment proc, Positrons blast proc and an A/D.  That's a great attack in and of itself.  Anything else is gravy as far as I'm concerned.

 

Accuracy/Endurance and 5 procs will let you shoot more.

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

So effectively, AA will serve to neuter Minions (which we're not scared of, normally) and ArchVillains (which at level 50 start with 85% ToHit debuff resistance, so AA will be very useful for those fights).

That one is untrue, because of the Resistance to -Resistance to Debuff I highlighted earlier. In concept it should be awesome against AVs, but it hardly is at the moment.

[Bopper]

15 minutes ago, Monos King said:

That one is untrue, because of the Resistance to -Resistance to Debuff I highlighted earlier. In concept it should be awesome against AVs, but it hardly is at the moment.

I didn't work out the math, but was this the post you're referring to? If so, I wasn't sure which ATs you were referring to exactly.

 

My numbers: Defender 40% Res(ToHit) against a level 50 AV (+0) gives me the following

Final Resistance Debuff: 6%    ->  40% x (100% - 85%) = 6%

New ToHit Resistance Debuff: 79%    ->  85% - 6% = 79%

 

Get a team of 8 TA Defenders: 320% Res(ToHit) which makes the numbers:

Final Resistance Debuff: 48%

New ToHit Resistance Debuff: 37% (close to the minimum resistance of an AV)

 

Certainly, stronger AVs will negate much of this thanks to having a stronger resistance and purple patch. Assuming +3 AV, we get the following:

 

Single TA Defender Debuffs:

Final Resistance Debuff: 3.38%    ->  40% x 0.65 x (100% - 87%) = 3.38%

New ToHit Resistance Debuff: 83.62%    ->  87% - 3.38% = 83.62%

 

Team of 8 TA Defender Debuffs:

Final Resistance Debuff: 27.04%

New ToHit Resistance Debuff: 59.96%

 

That certainly may not seem like much, but apply 14.44% To-Hit Debuff (resistible), which would be 54% enhancement in Flash Arrow, the end results are (I am ignoring the unresistible portion since it will not be impacted by what we're concerned with):

 

Single TA Defender (+0 Lvl 50 AV)

ToHit Resistance: 79%

ToHit Debuff: 3.03% (2.17% without resistance debuff)

 

Single TA Defender (+3 Lvl 54 AV)

ToHit Resistance: 83.62%

ToHit Debuff: 1.54% (1.22% without resistance debuff)

 

Team of 8 TA Defender (+0 Lvl 50 AV)

ToHit Resistance: 37%

ToHit Debuff: 72.77% (17.33% without resistance debuff)

 

Team of 8 TA Defender (+3 Lvl 54 AV)

ToHit Resistance: 59.96%

ToHit Debuff: 30.06% (9.76% without resistance debuff)

 

It's noticeable that it can be quite the force multiplier. It takes a bit to ramp up, but with enough of these types of debuffs you can reach some pretty high debuff numbers.