Modern Stalker Powersets - Maybe Build Up isn't required?

[Sif]

In the days of yore, the days of the lolstalker that was arguably only useful on a team for porting everyone to the boss or as Vengeance-bait, when porting powersets to Stalkers each one had Confront -> Placate, an attack -> AS, and the +damage power -> Build Up (if it wasn't already).

 

With modern day Stalkers, I'm wondering... do they really need the +damage power converted to Build Up? The BU -> AS -> Placate -> Run playstyle that Stalkers seemed to originally be designed for is fully dead, and Stalkers will scrap with the best of them. Ignoring the BU-recharge ATO for a moment, I wouldn't be surprised if, say, a Claws Stalker with Follow Up instead of Build Up would be at least competitive.

 

What do people think? Is this reasonable? Any way to deal with the BU-recharge proc (maybe instead it'll change Follow Up/etc to do double +damage?)?

[Croax]

Build Up and the ATO are all good on Stalkers as they are. If you want Follow Up, play any other melee AT. Build Up is vital in terms of dps and should not be changed. I recommend to try out a Stalker with a good build. Let people of forum or discord look at the build before you claim that Stalkers either suck or do not need Build Up. You either want a claw Stalker with Follow Up so badly that would screw up the whole AT or simply do not understand the fundamental importance of Build Up for Stalkers.

[Sif]

19 minutes ago, Croax said:

Let people of forum or discord look at the build before you claim that Stalkers either suck or do not need Build Up.

I think you misunderstood what I said. To quote your guide: "Stalkers used to be good in PvP and bad on allmost everything else." Today, Stalkers are all around great, but, like you said, not so much in the past when it came to teaming. I'm not suggesting this because I think it will necessarily make them better either (if Stalkers were any better, they'd probably get nerfed), more so because it will give a bit more mechanical variety in Stalker primaries, which I find a bit lacking. I also wasn't intending to suggest existing sets should necessarily be changed (I meant to have that in the original post, but looks like I lost that bit while drafting it, my apologies for the confusion there), although programmatically Stalker Claws could have both Build Up and Follow Up, and only allow a character to take one of the two, but I more so had it in mind as a consideration for any new powersets.

 

33 minutes ago, Croax said:

Build Up is vital in terms of dps

Without the BU ATO, Build Up doesn't do a ton for DPS without extreme +recharge (due to the uptime), and a power like Follow Up is significantly better over time. As a point of comparison, Claw's BU (which recharges faster than other BUs), with 100% recharge, is equivalent to about twice the +damage as a Stalker's Assault. Build Up is still superior if you're wanting a burst of damage (hence why Follow Up & co were converted, because the devs originally targeted Stalkers towards burst at the expense of DPS).

 

With the BU ATO, Build Up certainly has a massively improved up time, but a hypothetical Stalker Follow Up could be made to receive a benefit from the BU ATO to help deliver a similar level of performance.

 

I'm not interested in any additional performance out of Stalkers (I think we can both agree Stalkers aren't in need of a buff).

[Leogunner]

Do you really want Power Siphon, Staff Mastery and Blood Thirst?  Most of the other sets pretty much have BU anyway and the only sets that might have a disadvantage are Claws, Dual Blades and Dark Melee.

 

So it's really a toss up.  You trade our signature BU ability for the old ones, you're bogged down by Power Siphon (bleh) and no more free Form of Body on Staff and a worse longer casting BU in Blood Thirst but you get Soul Drain and FU and lose the ATO BU recharge.  Is it worth it?

[Troo]

20 hours ago, Sif said:

What do people think?

Not selecting Build Up or Build Up like powers is definitely an option. I will never be going in that direction.

20 hours ago, Sif said:

With modern day Stalkers, I'm wondering... do they really need the +damage power converted to Build Up? The BU -> AS -> Placate -> Run playstyle that Stalkers seemed to originally be designed for is fully dead, and Stalkers will scrap with the best of them. Ignoring the BU-recharge ATO for a moment, I wouldn't be surprised if, say, a Claws Stalker with Follow Up instead of Build Up would be at least competitive.

Spike damage is still a thing.

BU>AS>Placate>run is not an optimal playstyle and an over simplification.

Some stalkers were able to go toe to toe and scrap for a bit long ago. They are definitely not Tankers, Brutes, or Scrappers.

 

At high levels with incarnates on max builds, sure the lines get blurry between ATs.

Getting BU removed from Stalkers and replaced with something else would break lower level stalkers.

 

just my nickel's worth..

[Crater Kate]

Wait, what is the question here?

 

When I first read it, I thought you were asking if Build-Up was required in the sense that was it skippable. In which case, the answer is that it is definitely not skippable and IS required.

 

But that's not what you're asking. So what you are asking is - and correct me if I'm wrong! - but I think it's along the lines of this : "Is Build-Up a necessary part of Stalker primary design philosophy, to the point where it cannot be replaced by a reasonably similar power with relevant ATO adjustments?"

 

Is that right?

 

If so, then the answer is no, Build-up isn't necessary.

 

But if those are the qualifications for the question, then I would say that applies to literally every single power in the game. 

 

I can't think of a single power across any archetype where, if replaced by a reasonable substitute, the accompanying powerset would simply cease to function. Maaayyyybe if I squinted really hard I could say Rage, but even then SS wouldn't be *unusable*, and I don't think any others come close. Okay, Hide from Stalker secondaries. Sure. But outside that, if you're making reasonable changes to those spots in powersets, then there's really nothing that is *so* crucial to a set where if substituted with something reasonable, things break. Build Up is no exception to that.

 

COH just isn't the sort of game that HAS necessary powers. It's not the kind of game where powersets can be rendered unusably broken. So, could you replace Build Up and not have its surrounding powers fall to pieces? Sure. But you can say the same about any power if you really wanted to.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Crater Kate

[Machariel]

I don't think the BU-AS-run playstyle is dead, it's just unnecessary most of the time and especially at 50.  But it's still important to the identify of the AT that Stalkers are able to do it, and it's undeniably more burst damage than the follow up / blinding feint / power siphon etc that other ATs get.

The extra burst also helps get the best usage out of a stalker's smaller number of AoE attacks - when my only good AoE is say ball lightning getting the guaranteed +160% damage bonus (build up + gaussian's proc) at the start of the fight sounds much more useful than than working up to 100% from stacking follow up. 

 

So overall I think keeping Build Up is important and justified on all stalker sets and is as close to being a "required" power as you can get.  It requires minimal slotting and is a huge boost to something that is in my eyes core to the stalker experience which is single target burst damage.

[Gulbasaur]

On 10/31/2020 at 9:55 AM, Sif said:

With the BU ATO, Build Up certainly has a massively improved up time, but a hypothetical Stalker Follow Up could be made to receive a benefit from the BU ATO to help deliver a similar level of performance.

 

I'm not interested in any additional performance out of Stalkers (I think we can both agree Stalkers aren't in need of a buff).

I'd agree that stalkers don't need buffing. I would like to see the Build Up powers changed to be more like the other ATs' versions, like Follow Up and the Radiation one that makes you more likely to spread contamination . 

[Vanden]

Build Up is better than the equivalent powers sets get on non-Stalker ATs in almost every case, with the possible exception of Follow Up in Claws, so I call it a win that Stalkers always get it.

 

Maybe when they port Super Strength to Stalkers and it doesn't have Rage that'll change, but who knows if that'll ever happen.

[Saikochoro]

No, build up should not change for stalkers. The ATO gives it pretty good uptime and it changing them wouldn’t do any good. I enjoy follow up and blinding feint, but I will play scrapper if I want those.  I really enjoy soul drain and that would be the only one I might consider replacing build up if I had the choice. Still probably wouldn’t because it would break hide. So, if I want soul drain, I’ll play a scrapper. 
 

If there is anything that stalkers don’t really need anymore it is placate. But, even that is debatable because I’m sure there are still plenty of people that use it. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Saikochoro

[nihilii]

I would take BU over the replacements... even on scrappers.

Gaussian's chance for BU makes BU awesome.

I never cared for FU/BF too much. The "constant" +damage is great in theory. In practice, much of your gameplay time is spent moving from group to group, or even enemy to enemy; making the maintenance of +damage not as straightforward.

 

Adding insult to injury, BU doesn't root you, so you can use it as you move and get "free damage".

All of that is speaking just from a scrapper's perspective. On a stalker? Throw in keeping Hide status, the ATO... The deck is heavily stacked for BU on stalkers. It just works.

[SwitchFade]

On 10/30/2020 at 11:21 PM, Sif said:

In the days of yore, the days of the lolstalker that was arguably only useful on a team for porting everyone to the boss or as Vengeance-bait, when porting powersets to Stalkers each one had Confront -> Placate, an attack -> AS, and the +damage power -> Build Up (if it wasn't already).

 

With modern day Stalkers, I'm wondering... do they really need the +damage power converted to Build Up? The BU -> AS -> Placate -> Run playstyle that Stalkers seemed to originally be designed for is fully dead, and Stalkers will scrap with the best of them. Ignoring the BU-recharge ATO for a moment, I wouldn't be surprised if, say, a Claws Stalker with Follow Up instead of Build Up would be at least competitive.

 

What do people think? Is this reasonable? Any way to deal with the BU-recharge proc (maybe instead it'll change Follow Up/etc to do double +damage?)?

Hi.

 

Stalkers as an AT are fine. BU is in a good place.

 

I'll have to no vote changes to the mechanic.

Edited December 11, 2020 by SwitchFade

[StrikerFox]

Variety between the Stalker primaries would be welcome. If they can find a way to make it work so that it's still comparable to BU, I would be all for it. 

 

I like the idea of having FU and BF since they can build AF. Not sure how they and Soul Drain, Power Siphon and Staff Mastery stances would interact with ATO2.

[Riverdusk]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:26 PM, Saikochoro said:

 I really enjoy soul drain and that would be the only one I might consider replacing build up if I had the choice. Still probably wouldn’t because it would break hide. So, if I want soul drain, I’ll play a scrapper. 
 

 

My 50 dm/sr stalker would be against getting soul drain.  I prefer BU on my stalker and it is a big reason why I created the character.  I also have dm scrappers and I enjoy that they play very differently.

[Saikochoro]

29 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

My 50 dm/sr stalker would be against getting soul drain.  I prefer BU on my stalker and it is a big reason why I created the character.  I also have dm scrappers and I enjoy that they play very differently.

I totally get and respect that.  Even though I like soul drain better than build up in general, stalker has more nuances to it so I still wouldn’t want it replaced. That’s why I ended my comment with “if I want soul drain, I’ll play scrapper.”  

[Shred Monkey]

You have to have build-up as a stalker.  The ATO proc resets buildup so you can use it more frequently.   It doesn't work if you don't take it.

[Frosticus]

Try a melee fortunata. 

You get stealthy partial crits, follow up AND aim (w/ guassian).

 

No AS, but I think having a nuke is a fair trade.

[tidge]

I was going to write  "The only change Stalkers need with respect to Build Up is that the Gaussian's enhancement set should scale over the full range of level 10 - 50", because I can't imagine NOT taking Build Up and NOT using at least one piece of the Gaussian's set in it. However...

 

Even when playing low-level SF/TF where I lose the set bonus (and quite a bit of global +Recharge) I find that the Build Up is still key to DPS, in both solo content and team PUG.

[BrandX]

No.

 

First is the simple answer, it screws with the ATO.  You could say that the ATO would instant recharge the new version of BU powers, but that would seem to only benefit Dark Melee.  One isn't going to generally want to hit Follow Up sooner (I would think) as it would mess with attack strings and such.

[Haijinx]

Stalkers basically have a double build up nearly every time with the Guassian's Proc

 

And they get many more build ups than anyone else with the ATO 

 

Why you'd want to give that up for anything, I do not know. 

[Mezmera]

Yeah I can't see where any toon would not want to take their BU power especially stalkers.  

[SeraphimKensai]

I have 5 incarnate stalkers right now fully IO'd, with the newest as of yesterday that I rolled when I first saw this post. I made a Staff/Invuln Stalker and I tried to play it on some missions without buildup on a lark to kinda get a sense of a stalker without buildup as that seemed to me like having a blaster without aim/buildup. It wasn't pretty. Then I started to sober up, respec'd my new stalker and now it has build up. I ran on a Numina TF and had to be asked to slow down twice, that's where stalkers should be.

 

If build up was removed they would have to redesign the ATO's. Honestly though Stalkers are in an amazing place right now and need no changes to the overall AT.

[Hew]

I don't take buildup on 95% of my builds. For a brief period of bonus damage and tohit, or maximize always-on utility, I will always go for the always-on utility.

[Nightmarer 2]

The way I see it, removing BU on stalkers and replace it for a power on the lines of Soul Drain, FU etc... would make Stalkers dangerously close to become stealthed scrappers and I don't like that. Following that path would make keeping them as separate AT's pretty much redundant. I think stalkers are at a sweet spot right now except maybe Claws Stalkers which seem weak but then again I think the whole Claws set needs a review although that's another story for another thread.

[SwitchFade]

20 hours ago, Hew said:

I don't take buildup on 95% of my builds. For a brief period of bonus damage and tohit, or maximize always-on utility, I will always go for the always-on utility.

Uh, I would highly recommend reconsidering that, as stalker BU and the ATO are absolutely amazing. Seriously, it's that good on stalkers.