Weekly Discussion 78: Incarnate Powers - a review of ultimate power!

[Golden Azrael]

The incarnate interface is terrible.

 

I don't know why Paragon didn't just use the standard interface.  ie.  Me?  I'd change it to use the standard interface.  

 

Much simpler than this fuss fest.

 

Azrael.

[MrAxe]

I'd love real Clockwork pets, not the preatorian ones.

[tidge]

21 hours ago, pyrocumulus said:

Level 35 is the lowest level for ITF. If you attempt to run one at L35-44 you will struggle to form and keep an 8-man team unless you agree to give the TL position to a incarnate and sidekick to them.

I believe that some other content (RWZ, Cape/Aura Missions) also scale to your level, so those can become level 45+ missions too.

[Pzn]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:41 AM, pyrocumulus said:

My issue, as a player that vastly concentrates on the 1-49 leveling game (probably 90-95% of my total play time), is that incarnate powers bleed into the level 35-50 game and overshadow it badly.

Incarnate powers are disabled if you exemp below 45.  How can they be affecting level 35-44 content?

[pyrocumulus]

16 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

Incarnate powers are disabled if you exemp below 45.  How can they be affecting level 35-44 content?

As I implied when discussing the ITF (which is why I specifically said L35), they don't directly affect lvl 35-44 content, but my game experience in PUGs. Every PUG I join in which I am sidekicked to a 45+ exemplar will inevitably have incarnates in it.

 

Yes, I could explicitly just run Ice Mistrals and Morty Kals and Manticores until I ding 50 to avoid it, but I still find being stuck with the choice of

1) PUG above L45 and be an utterly useless deadweight or

2) deliberately avoid any and all L45+ content or

3) solo

makes my personal game experience less fun.

Edited November 25, 2020 by pyrocumulus

[Pzn]

18 minutes ago, pyrocumulus said:

As I implied when discussing the ITF (which is why I specifically said L35), they don't directly affect lvl 35-44 content, but my game experience in PUGs. Every PUG I join in which I am sidekicked to a 45+ exemplar will inevitably have incarnates in it.

 

Yes, I could explicitly just run Ice Mistrals and Morty Kals and Manticores until I ding 50 to avoid it, but I still find being stuck with the choice of

1) PUG above L45 and be an utterly useless deadweight or

2) deliberately avoid any and all L45+ content or

3) solo

makes my personal game experience less fun.

Well that's just misrepresenting things.  An ITF with a level 50 on the team is no longer level 35 content.  You want the entire system overhauled to solve a personal problem.  Ask the people on your team to not use incarnates and see how it goes?  If they don't comply then the last thing you should do is force them.  Start your own team

Edited November 25, 2020 by josh1622

[pyrocumulus]

Just now, josh1622 said:

You want the entire system overhauled

I did not advocate for any change or nerf to the Incarnate system in any way.

 

I advocated for a challenge option to switch off Incarnate powers in non-incarnate TF and Ouroboros content and associated badges to provide an incentive to run it that way. Look at all the AT forums in which people are doing no-insp/no-temp/no-defeat 'Master Of' solo TF challenges, there is an audience out there for further self-imposed challenge.

 

I explained my personal feelings about the impact Incarnate abilities have on non-Incarnate play as my reasoning for wanting such a thing, but my proposed solution has absolutely no impact on anyone who doesn't feel the same way.

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, pyrocumulus said:

I did not advocate for any change or nerf to the Incarnate system in any way.

My bad.  I didn't see what suggestions you had made and jumped the gun assuming you wanted direct nerfs.  I agree with your idea.

[Galaxy Brain]

As long as we're talking changes:

 

1) Add more appropriate content for incarnates

Self explanatory, give the super-duper heroes something to chew on. Whether thats new trials and arcs, new enemy groups, new classes of enemy that appear in random missions, etc. Just something to actually leverage that power against. In terms of dev time, brand new content is the hardest so I would opt for "Enhanced Enemies" or "Enhanced Task Forces" as discussed in other threads. How cool would it be to have random bosses be incarnate-level in a mission with incarnates? Or re-running task forces in "Incarnate Mode" where all enemies and challenges are cranked to 11?

 

1.5) Adjust existing "hard" content to be more worthwhile

Part of the issue is that many folks are taking a sledge hammer to a thumb tack when it comes to Incarnates vs "normal" content, compounded by how council missions are the same reward as say a Carnie + Malta map for 1/10th the risk. This goes hand in hand with point 1 where new, hard content should be worth it to run as opposed to council maps 4568475 times, and should be applied to existing content for a win-win. Hell, revamp the shadow shard to an incarnate area for all factions!

 

2) An incarnate by itself is fine, its when they team up it gets weird

My hot take here is that the incarnate system as-is works fine.... solo or with a small team... or if there are only 1-2 incarnates on the team. Where it gets mega steamroll-y is when you have many incarnates working together. Yes, the comparison of Judgement to a Blaster Nuke is valid... but you often do not have 8 or more blasters cycling nukes that can hit 40 or so targets each for the same damage, which is what Judgement spam can do. Likewise, support powers get overshadowed not only by IO's, but by even DPS classes getting Destiny for the same values that do wonders across wide areas. On top of that, there can be a bunch of monstrously strong pets rolling through content along with the incarnates. I feel strongly that the issue is more like each person becomes a force multiplier for themselves and others and it gets stronger and stronger the more you get.

 

This can be fun, but I feel its detrimental to designing actual content for decked out heroes like this. I think it'd be cool if there were some limit in a team setting per incarnate (something small), but also a linear boost per incarnate to make up for this. Just tossing ideas at the wall:

• You select either Judgement, Destiny, or Lore as your "Main" incarnate power, this allows it to be more potent in exchange for the others to be weaker in some manner. In a team setting, these changes are enhanced both ways (stronger main, weaker sides)

 

 

[pyrocumulus]

29 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

revamp the shadow shard to an incarnate area for all factions!

I really, really like this idea. What could be more fitting for incarnates than taking on an insane god-entity in his own dimension?

 

Firebase Zulu (and maybe the Cascade Archipelago) could remain 41-50 content so the TFs and few lower level missions there still have a home, and the Chantry and Storm Palace be Incarnate zones?

[Runebound]

I'm wary of nerfs in a PvE game, since I'm not hurt when you run a mission with a powerful toon. The one exception is when given power so alters the game that it weakens the experience for teammates.  Incarnates may fall into that category, at least in non-endgame content.

 

As a relative newcomer, I'm often reduced to a spectator in TFs where other players clear masses of mobs in the time it takes for me to me hold one, largely because of Incarnates. That may be ok. Other players have earned their Incarnate powers, I'm still enjoying the game, and I hate to make nerfs that reduce the fun for another player.

 

But if nerfs are warranted here, these seem reasonable options:

On 11/24/2020 at 7:37 AM, Chris24601 said:

My first choice would be to actually cull the entire incarnate system from the game and retool the Incarnate content that does exist to account for this (remove the level shifts from the opponents for example, since players won’t have them either). At best, keep the Alpha Slot only (sans level shift) as a level 50 capstone.*

 

My second choice would be to limit them exclusively to Incarnate content and level 50 content where an “Incarnate” difficulty toggle has been activated (and which adds level shifts and other boosts to all opponents in the missions).

 

My third choice would be to allow only one Incarnate power to be active at a time (with a 5 minute timer on changing which is active) outside of Incarnate content.

 

If #1 is too much, the second would enable Incarnate abilities for content suited to their power. It's a good suggestion, and #3 is a softer alternative.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Runebound

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 11/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, Heraclea said:

My suggestions would be to:

 

 - Get rid of the Shards path entirely.  The shards are currently only used for Alpha components, all of which can be crafted by the Threads path at well.  Offering the incarnate rewards for TF completion could also be gotten rid of; those things are treacherous, traps for the new 50, who may not be aware of how limited their usefulness is.  If something like that is still offered, I'd just offer a reward of empyrean merits instead, with an empyrean bonus reward for the weekly strike force target.

 

 - Make the tokens more transferrable by allowing threads to be converted to empyrean merits at the established rate of 20:1, similar to the convertability of astral merits.  This preserves the motivation to play characters with full t4 incarnates.  The threads and other geemies that they drop can be converted into merits that can be passed to other characters.  Right now the chief use of threads to them is to buy inspirations in Ouro.

Quoting this because word for word I'd love to see it all.

 

Away from that:

 

Remove all level shifts and fix the content that demands it. At the very least, remove all level shifts from non-incarnate content.

[Heraclea]

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hell, revamp the shadow shard to an incarnate area for all factions!

This little idea right here.  Give the Shard the Dark Astoria treatment, with level 53 enemies and incarnate oriented rewards dropping solo and teamed.  Rularuu are a neglected faction that's made for this. 

[ClawsandEffect]

It occurs to me that this entire discussion is largely moot when you take into account that players in game will almost always take the path of least resistance. 

 

Even if you remove Incarnate powers from non-Incarnate content, you still won't see all that many people running Incarnate content. I solo my way through the Dark Astoria arcs on all my 50s after they unlock Alpha, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone else in the zone that wasn't on my team (for those times when I can actually play with my wife). 

 

Take away the Incarnate powers and the majority of players will still keep running repeated Council radio missions. Except now they'll be bitching that their Incarnate powers don't work anymore. 

[Galaxy Brain]

20 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

It occurs to me that this entire discussion is largely moot when you take into account that players in game will almost always take the path of least resistance. 

 

Even if you remove Incarnate powers from non-Incarnate content, you still won't see all that many people running Incarnate content. I solo my way through the Dark Astoria arcs on all my 50s after they unlock Alpha, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone else in the zone that wasn't on my team (for those times when I can actually play with my wife). 

 

Take away the Incarnate powers and the majority of players will still keep running repeated Council radio missions. Except now they'll be bitching that their Incarnate powers don't work anymore. 

This is exactly why I proposed a buff to enemies and rewards be put in tandem with Incarnate changes.

[BurtHutt]

2 hours ago, Heraclea said:

This little idea right here.  Give the Shard the Dark Astoria treatment, with level 53 enemies and incarnate oriented rewards dropping solo and teamed.  Rularuu are a neglected faction that's made for this. 

I've made this suggestion before. I'd also make it a co-op area.

[Greycat]

35 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

It occurs to me that this entire discussion is largely moot when you take into account that players in game will almost always take the path of least resistance. 

 

Even if you remove Incarnate powers from non-Incarnate content, you still won't see all that many people running Incarnate content. I solo my way through the Dark Astoria arcs on all my 50s after they unlock Alpha, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone else in the zone that wasn't on my team (for those times when I can actually play with my wife). 

 

Take away the Incarnate powers and the majority of players will still keep running repeated Council radio missions. Except now they'll be bitching that their Incarnate powers don't work anymore. 

The question is, is that because people don't want to *do* the content or because they've seen it all before and are burnt out on it? I do see the calls out ... semi-regularly (not constant, but not so rare as to be surprising) to run DA arcs, but given things like WTFs and just *teaming* (and... granted, mowing down non incarnate enemies, but just being more fun with a group of people to BS with on the way,) I can see why it'd be empty.

 

As far as the Shard? I'd personally rather see it as a hybrid. There's non incarnate content there. Give us more non incarnate content - with an Incarnate end game (you *are* in the mind of what's essentially a god, after all, and there are aspects we haven't seen.) I mean both in a task force and solo/small team content. Use the pre-Incarnate stuff to continue building on the story and lore of the area (and, honestly, just to remind people it's there when Quaterfeld isn't the WTF,) and post-Incarnate to finish with a bang.

 

Just off the top of my head, Ruularu - who *devours* after all - "sees new sources of power (your Incarnates) and wants to either enslave (an aspect we've not seen) or devour *you* in order to break out of this little prison" seems like an obvious hook.

[Darmian]

30 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Just off the top of my head, Ruularu - who *devours* after all - "sees new sources of power (your Incarnates) and wants to either enslave (an aspect we've not seen) or devour *you* in order to break out of this little prison" seems like an obvious hook.

Derailing ahoy!  This reminds me of "Galactus Joins the Avengers!"

 

Iron Man:  I may have a plan, you'll have to trust me.

Cap: Trust you?  Well, ok then--

Galactus: I TOO HAVE A PLAN!

Cap: Is it eat the planet, Galactus?

GALACTUS:...YES?

Iron Man: Same solution to everything, eat the damn planet!

Cap: Yep. No planet eating, Galactus!

Galactus: BUT...

Cap: I said no.

 

[Zepp]

On 11/23/2020 at 4:19 AM, Heraclea said:

My suggestions would be to:

 

 - Get rid of the Shards path entirely.  The shards are currently only used for Alpha components, all of which can be crafted by the Threads path at well.  Offering the incarnate rewards for TF completion could also be gotten rid of; those things are treacherous, traps for the new 50, who may not be aware of how limited their usefulness is.  If something like that is still offered, I'd just offer a reward of empyrean merits instead, with an empyrean bonus reward for the weekly strike force target.

 

 - Make the tokens more transferrable by allowing threads to be converted to empyrean merits at the established rate of 20:1, similar to the convertability of astral merits.  This preserves the motivation to play characters with full t4 incarnates.  The threads and other geemies that they drop can be converted into merits that can be passed to other characters.  Right now the chief use of threads to them is to buy inspirations in Ouro.

If Shards were eliminated (please), I would ask that all existing shards be converted to 5 threads, shard-based common items converted to 20 threads, shard-based uncommon items converted to 60 threads, shard-based rare items converted to 8 Empyrean Merits, and Favors of the Well converted to 30 Empyrean Merits.

 

I am not sure threads and EMs should be exchanged equally in both directions. I would suggest that since their actual value is 30-32 (240 threads for a rare = 8 EM for a rare; 960 threads for a very = 30 EM for a very rare) that to upgrade it should be 30 while downgrading remains at 20.

[xl8]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:19 PM, Heraclea said:

Get rid of the Shards path entirely.

Nope, this makes the incarnate system more challenging and at present difficulty settings, is welcome. Also makes low level TFs more worthwhile for 50+. I know the argument is to replace with threads or rares, but again, the more difficult to obtain, the better.

On 11/22/2020 at 1:55 PM, Normal Thomas said:

I just got a low level Phantom for a character's lore slot and they don't have the option to be customized like phantom army? That has to be fixed.

Yes, THIS more than anything else.

On 11/25/2020 at 5:16 AM, MrAxe said:

I'd love real Clockwork pets, not the preatorian ones.

Yes, everyone would.

On 11/23/2020 at 7:16 AM, Grouchybeast said:

- Stop all Incarnate slots other than Alpha from working outside of Incarnate content.

I agree. Difficulty levels should be comparative.

On 11/23/2020 at 9:37 AM, Zepp said:

Lore, Destiny, and Hybrid toggles are a bit annoying. They are very powerful, but they also lead to a very feast or fast feeling of power. Get all three going and you are a god, until they dissipate and you are left exposed.

Then they're working as intended.

On 11/23/2020 at 6:58 PM, Neiska said:

1. My biggest pet peeve, is how all the recharge pets from Crabber mind, Controller, etc etc do not benifit from Supports "double bonus for pets", making it expressly unique to masterminds.

Yes, ALL pets should benefit equally.

On 11/24/2020 at 12:58 AM, Clave Dark 5 said:

The window for Incarnates is awful, not in any way intuitive.

It is, but this is lowest priority.

On 11/23/2020 at 1:32 PM, Kazuuk said:

If you don't like incarnate powers, just play the vast majority of the games content which occurs 1-49.

You could, but you dominate everything and perhaps find content too easy. Plus, you're cutting yourself from half the population.

 

Personally, I'd like to see more flavor in choices. By this I don't mean more selections, but better selections.

Judgement is the best example of this... 9/10 people will choose Pyronic because of fast activation and highly unresistable damage.

To compensate you could drop the damage on Pyronic by 1/3 and lowers it's accuracy. Then, boost the secondary effects of other powers. Not make them OP on damage, but on a power like Vorpal you could extend the def boost to 20 seconds (it only lasts 10 seconds), make it an AoE (it's difficult to believe this power is a cone, especially given the animation) and, to keep it in line, drop the def boost from 30 to 15%.

For a power like Mighty, (another power like vorpal which is highly resisted) you could make it a short range (LoS) TP to target.
For Cryonic, make it an TAoE, to mimic onset of Winter, rather than a "spray".

I could suggest for every  power, but I won't. People don't read long posts. (WALL OF TEXT not CRITTING YOU!!!)

Quickly...

Alpha: Make effects boost by 5%, instead of 2%.

Destiny: Significantly cut the powers' duration (say by 3/4) but make it recharge faster. I know the idea of more clicking, less autopilot irks some, but having to work this into attack chains would create more a challenge and provide more opportunity for the endgame NPCs.

Interface: Gravitic, Preemptive, and Paralytic need boosting.

Lore: Again with flavor, these need to have more diversity and stronger ties to elements. S/L should cause extra damage. Control oriented pets should have stronger holds, weaker attacks (would be great if they had containment).

Hybrid: Not much wrong with this, boost regen and mez res to Melee, done.

 

With regards to endgame difficulty, most of it comes down to knowing what you're doing. When you have an experienced team leader telling the league what to do and when, it's usually plain sailing. The learning process is part of the challenge, it's just fortunate/unfortunate so many exprienced players are there to help the inexperienced.

 

For those having trouble understanding...

Yes, you have to read.

 

[Lockpick]

 

 

On 11/24/2020 at 1:55 PM, ClawsandEffect said:

And thematically limited. I'd really like to see a Judgement power added that would fit a natural, unpowered character a little better. A storm of shuriken or a satchel charge or something like that would be cool.

Would love to see both of those ideas become Judgement powers.

 

On 11/25/2020 at 7:07 AM, pyrocumulus said:

As I implied when discussing the ITF (which is why I specifically said L35), they don't directly affect lvl 35-44 content, but my game experience in PUGs. Every PUG I join in which I am sidekicked to a 45+ exemplar will inevitably have incarnates in it.

 

Yes, I could explicitly just run Ice Mistrals and Morty Kals and Manticores until I ding 50 to avoid it, but I still find being stuck with the choice of

1) PUG above L45 and be an utterly useless deadweight or

2) deliberately avoid any and all L45+ content or

3) solo

makes my personal game experience less fun.

 

When I turn 35 I generally start an ITF and run it as team leader.  Never had an issue.

 

Sometimes I may want to give the team lead role to a 50 and I will, but it's my call to make.

[RageusQuitus2]

With the changes to PvP zones, Ill probably stop doing anything but alpha incarnates.  So take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

 

Id say get rid of all but the alpha and maybe the lore pet (cause I do love pets).  Then add more alpha choices and again more pet choices.  

 

The end.

[BrandX]

21 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Quoting this because word for word I'd love to see it all.

 

Away from that:

 

Remove all level shifts and fix the content that demands it. At the very least, remove all level shifts from non-incarnate content.

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but you only get one level shift on the normal content, so think it's really that big of a deal?

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, xl8 said:

Nope, this makes the incarnate system more challenging and at present difficulty settings, is welcome. Also makes low level TFs more worthwhile for 50+. I know the argument is to replace with threads or rares, but again, the more difficult to obtain, the better.

On live, threads dropped only in Incarnate content, and shards dropped in non-incarnate content.  On HC, threads drop in all content once a character hits 50, so shards have become, basically, a redundant system that contributes very little except unnecessary complexity.  Getting rid of them would actually make it (marginally) harder to progress as an incarnate.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but you only get one level shift on the normal content, so think it's really that big of a deal?

End goal is to roll back one more bit of power creep. As it stands, with a lvl shift and eating ultimate insps, regular content at +4 becomes even more of a joke. Almost as much as running DA at +4 while fighting +1s or even +0s if using ultimate insps there as well. And since we can't use threads for anything but buying insps from the fairy lass, it's easy to get stocked up on ultimates as well. It wouldn't break my heart to see those yanked from the game either.